How can you say your fish are "clean" ?

[JeremyR]

Dizzy,

I'll come back when I think these arguements are going to go somewhere.. SSDD.

On the AMDA.. the amda is and always has been a joke. It will be a cold day in hell before they get my 50 dollars.. does that make me a bad retailer? Sheesh. This thread is pretty disgusting.. makes RDO look bad.

 

[Anonymous]

The truth is - when you meet or for most of us in this forum, far exceed the AMDA/MAC S&P your customers know it and don't care if a sticker is in a window. We let our AMDA membership lapse for good reason - the political games and general lack of cojones of the AMDA board to accomplish ANYTHING of value other than hitch their wagon to MAC was a great disappointment. I think AMDA really could have been a worthy cause - but it was pissed away.

 

[Kalkbreath]

Sometimes is isn't about quantity it's about quality. Being an old timer fish hound, i probably have $400 in fish in my tank. Collect the right species and someone will buy it. Why waste time on getting net collected green chromis when you know you are only going to get .10 more per fish. Get that golden angelfish or that genicanthus watanabei or some other fish that while may be rarer but you can guarentee human and correct collection. Some of my friends have dropped $500 on one fish because it is rare and collected properly. That's what at leasts 5 clown triggers or 100 clowns or............


A quality fish deserves a quality price why count the pennies when you can collect the dollars.

How many blueface or Watanabi can one collector out of four thousand collect............? A collector can make more money collecting hunreds of ten cent fish daily then he can collecting one twenty dollar blueface a week..........High dollar fish collectors are actually divers that would rather dive deep and collect easy fish ............its more a pride thing then a dollar issue...........Yes conspics , some rare hybreds and white tangs command a truely high price.......but even then the bulk of the profit are from cheap fish both retail and exports........

 

[dizzy]

On the AMDA.. the amda is and always has been a joke. It will be a cold day in hell before they get my 50 dollars.. does that make me a bad retailer? Sheesh. This thread is pretty disgusting.. makes RDO look bad.

Jeremy,
Your right about this thread and wrong about AMDA. AMDA members sent netting material to the divers in the Philippines and we are working to help with other net training issues. While it is true AMDA doesn't have much money, it is a bit unfair to call the organization a joke. I don't believe anyone called you a bad retailer for not joining. Perhaps the contentious nature of the exchange between John and the gals has affected your mood, but if you go back and read what I wrote, it was not meant to be offensive.

 

[JeremyR]

Hi Mitch,

My bad retailer comment was directed at John who seemed to be insinuating that judy was a poor retailer for not being in the amda anymore.

 

[Saltykirk]

The net caught fish issue has been debated for some time. Like anything else, a percentage if going to slip through the cracks. I am not trying to be offensive to anyone but, it appears to this consumer/maintenance person that the attitude of one person w/ MAC may not have fully realized the battle ahead of them. Again, I am not trying to be offensive only objective from a different perspective. I deal with some shopowners who post to this site & others who don't. Most LFS's that are in business for a period of time are not in that position by blind luck. It is through alot of personal sacrifice & hard work not to mention money. I know from pers comm that many of them are not too keen on having an invisible hand tamper too much w/ their business practices. Especially, if they have been in business for 15 years by offering good service and keeping their systems healthy, feeding, and offering good advice to their customers. Repeat business is what keeps LFS, importers, etc. in business for the long hall.
When an organization proposes its own existance that would assume enough power to spank LFS for mortality rates above 1%(this may have changed, I am unaware if it has) it sort of attacks that organizations credibility from the get go. I don't see how certain variables like rough handling during shipping, temp anomolies, etc. can be helped by MAC or anyone. Is MAC working w/ some airline to make sure the boxes are carefully placed instead of thrown onto conveyors? I am not attacking here only to point out some areas that might need considered.
All-in-all, to clean up the marine ornamental trade is a very daunting task & I do applaud AMDA & MAC for trying. I feel that more success could be had if an organization tried working closer with all sectors of the business instead of just the supply end. I think many LFS and wholesalers would welcome that kind of opportunity(look at the response to tank raised clowns & dottybacks) as opposed to a control situation where they are feeling like they are going to be controlled by those who would control the supply. I certainly hope MAC build on what net collecting success has been attained.

 

[mkirda]

You have no real way of knowing that your fish were net-caught. {snip}

I'm wondering if you are doing a disservice to the industry reform effort by selling fish as "net-caught", when all you can truly base that on is by trust and hopes.

John,

I'm making part of our phone conversation public.

This same argument could be turned around and applied to the MAC...

I have no real way of knowing that a MAC certified fish was net caught.
I have to 'trust' and 'hope' that it was...

I have argued before that MAC was only one possible model of industry reform. If net-caught fish were more prevelant, so much so that cyanide use became a non-issue, would this not be a significant and tangible achievement? A net collectors association could be formed and their product could be marketed through exporters willing to work with them, and pay them more for the fish. Backsliding would not be so much an issue, and everyone would be a winner.

Would you argue against this?

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[flameangel1]

Mike K--

A net collectors association could be formed and their product could be marketed through exporters willing to work with them, and pay them more for the fish.

This is an EXCELLANT idea !!!!!
Has this been discussed with the net catching divers yet ???

 

[mkirda]

This is an EXCELLANT idea !!!!!
Has this been discussed with the net catching divers yet ???

Hmm...
I think they are discussing it amongst themselves...
The joys of text messaging.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[bobbyreefer]

From our moderator....
"I am going to bring this thread to the attention of forum administrators. Under no circumstances do I wish to engage in personal attacks. If my postings are such I will apologize and modify my ways accordingly. It is also possible that I am being wrongly accused of a personal attack. I will let others judge."


So have they judged yet? Isn't time to apologize and get back to the real issues, Mr. MODERATOR? Frankly, I think it's sad that you're the only one who wasn't able to see your own post as a personal attack.

If you'll notice, I'm a brand new member of RDO. I've been reading regularly for almost a year now, I just haven't allowed myself to register for fear that I will spend MUCH more time here if I do more than read. But this crap has finally motivated me to register, good work.

Let me tell you what a "disservice" Mary has done to the industry. Only inform thousands that cyanide is still an issue. The whole time I worked at my LFS none of us (owner and management included) had any clue that cyanide was still being used. Everytime a customer came in asking if our fish were net caught we just assumed they were new to the hobby and had just read about cyanide in some outdated book. Then we assured them that cyanide caught fish simply didn't exist anymore. I'll refrain from posting the name of the wholesaler who lead me to believe such crap, as I think ALMOST everyone understands that to be a personal attack. And we really were a good store too. I'd love to see stats on how many fish retailers don't realize they sell cyanide fish.

Perhaps I've missed something, but I would guess that Mary, her website, and the forum she created have educated more U.S. hobbiests on the truth about cyanide than anyone else. My suggestion to those who enjoy attacking her: wake up and realize that she slams you every time.

Bob Fast

Yes--I am biased--I think MAC is full of s#%@.

 

[wade1]

bobbyreefer-

This constitutes a personal attack and is not acceptable practice at reefs.org. Please read your user agreement and the notice at the top of this forum.

If you wish to partake in the thread please do so on a factual and relevant basis. This form of personal attack is more than inappropriate.

So have they judged yet? Isn't time to apologize and get back to the real issues, Mr. MODERATOR? Frankly, I think it's sad that you're the only one who wasn't able to see your own post as a personal attack.

Wade

 

[JennM]

The preceeding comments notwithstanding, have the staff of RDO completed their investigation of the exchange in this thread?

I too, brought the thread to the attention of the administration. Six days have passed, 5 days since I brought the posts to the admins' attention (although it was indicated to me that I wasn't the first to do so), and I have not received any update, except two messages from moderators/administrators early on, (Sunday and Monday) that said, "we are working on this". IMO there is not much to "work on" but I do understand that there must be policies and procedures in dealing with delicate situations such as this, and with Mother's Day, not everyone was available for discussions, however at this point, time is of the essence. The longer this goes unresolved, the more damaging it can be for all involved.

I am one of the individuals named in the initial post, and I feel that I was personally attacked, and my business attacked. I feel that the attack was brought on simply because I hold an opinion which differs from the forum Moderator who is also a MAC board member. I respectfully request a specific commentary from RDO administration regarding RDO's position on the concerns I expressed both privately and publically here. I'm patient, but I think the time has come for something to be said or done, one way or the other. The silence is becoming very uncomfortable.

Jenn

 

[dizzy]

Bob,
Welcome to reefs.org. It's always good to hear opinions from fellow retailers, or retail staff. Or even ex-retail staff.

M Gibbs

 

[mkirda]

I respectfully request a specific commentary from RDO administration regarding RDO's position on the concerns I expressed both privately and publically here. I'm patient, but I think the time has come for something to be said or done, one way or the other. The silence is becoming very uncomfortable.

Jenn

It will be announced soon, I think.
I know that several people were out of town, hence the delay.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[dizzy]

Mike et al,
I think maybe we are being just a little too hard on John. While it is true John came on board to act as a lightning rod, complete with fireproof headgear, I think the job has been tougher than he imagined. John I for one think your a fine fellow who is sincere in his beliefs. I know I certainly would not want to offend you with my sarcastic humor. Hang in tough like a certain Confederate General who was very brave.

 

[Saltykirk]

thread deleted

 

[Anonymous]

Wade, maybe I'm way off base here, but I didn't see bobby's response as a personal attack. If so, it's mild when compared to what's been exchanged in this thread only.

I agree with Mitch that John is under a great deal of pressure. I feel for you!

<sm, who also keeps her hipwaders handy...just in case>

 

[wade1]

Seamaiden,
If you read his response, the first portion, is a personal feelings attempt to spark more flames. It has no place in this discussion.

The latter part of the post has substance, but unfortunately it uses specific names in defense of a position. We'll cover more of this very shortly. This entire thread actually is a prime example of what we all, as professionals, should avoid.

Remember that what we gather from what we read is all based on personal perceptions of an issue. Lets ALL try to stay even-keeled and open-minded. Dragging out words that are inflammatory is useless to the hobby.

Please stay tuned...

 

[jorcutt]

ok. I APOLOGIZE. Man that was tough.

I did not intend to attack, Wade, I just felt it was time for John to apologize for the words he used to start the thread. Not trying to spark more flames, I guess I'm just expecting too much. Since you did not (and still haven't) post an immediate warning to John after his initial post as you did to mine, should we assume that you don't feel his was an attack?

If I offended you, John, again, I'm sorry. I think everyone is beggining to realize what a tough position being Moderator of this forum is, and we certainly don't want to see it fold.

From an outsider's point of view, though, a few poeple seem to skip all the important questions asked of them just to throw in little jabs about wording. Or they appear to be MIA until an opportunity for such a jab crops up.

 

[wade1]

Since you did not (and still haven't) post an immediate warning to John after his initial post as you did to mine, should we assume that you don't feel his was an attack?

Patience young grasshopper! We are working on a formal response.

As to warning John earlier, we had some issues to be dealt with and this came around after that fact. I was not taking an active role in this forum until we had many users reporting the personal attacks to us.

Thank you for the apology. We are trying to make this forum agreeable to everyone and its not easy nor does it occur quickly!

Wade