Is it time to blow the whistle on industry?

[dizzy]

naesco,
I think my friend John Brandt explained what we need to do. Give the groups that are working on the problems a chance to get results. No one can accuse me of being a MAC apologist, but I think they will eventually make a difference. I also believe that AMDA has a role to play. A lot of intelligent, caring people have these issues constantly on their minds, but solutions are complicated. Be patient and feel free to send in your donation to the AMDA net fund.

 

[naesco]

naesco,
I think my friend John Brandt explained what we need to do. Give the groups that are working on the problems a chance to get results. No one can accuse me of being a MAC apologist, but I think they will eventually make a difference. I also believe that AMDA has a role to play. A lot of intelligent, caring people have these issues constantly on their minds, but solutions are complicated. Be patient and feel free to send in your donation to the AMDA net fund.

Dizzy
Reform (sorry Mary) is interested in working with MAC and AMDA towards a cyanide free fishery. Obviously training is key. However, we are not interested in the status quo.

If you can provide an answer to the earlier question I posed about cyanide caught and net caught, you too would be contributing to what Reform is doing. You do not have to share your views online. Email or PM on a guaranteed confidential basis just as others have.

 

[Anonymous]

"Every fish will be sellable"

Bull...... And how can "Reform" claim this Naesco? Have you ever collected a single tropical marine speciman for export, or exported a single animal, or recieved at the wholesale level Naesco? How are you going to control the airlines? How are you going to speed up an all ready over worked post 911 Customs agent or USF&WS agent? Your pool of scientists have solved these problems?

Its plain as day "reform" has no other backing then Naesco. Why would any one want to be "secret agent" for Reform and how could they get any work done being as such? "Did you see that trainer? Nah, he was undercover" . Judge asks for the person whom conducted the positive cdt test to take the stand, and for all to close their eyes because the man is a "secret agent" for Reform.

"all in due time" um, ok, sounds like stall tactic to me. Stalling for some support? Some substance? Some ideas?

 

[JennM]

Wayne, every time you use the word "REFORM" all I can hear in my head is Preston Manning' s nerve-grating voice....

"Reeeeefffffffffffffffooooooooorrrrrrrmmmmmmm"

You fellow Canucks out there will know what I mean.....

Personally I'm beginning to think that good ole' Wayne is playing with us. I'm not playing along. Put him in the high pile of non-industry types who think they can rush in and save the industry from itself, without any real knowledge of the inner workings of it all.

I think Preston might use the word "hogwash".

Jenn

 

[clarionreef]

Why...
Why is there so much more interest in talking about reform than just doing it ie. buying netcaught fish now available and supporting those consciencious dealers that already do?
I mean could you imagine campaigning about pesticides in your food while not supporting organic farmers?
Would you decry animal cruelty and still support cosmetics manufacturers that burn the eyes of rabbits to test products?
How bout buying from the dealers in cyanide caught fish while "supporting" reform?
This is an obvious and glaring blind spot in the reform movement as there are far more "supporters" than practicing consumers.
Much of our core constituency could be characterizes as follows:
'Yeah, I'm with you guys and want to save the ocean and all that, but if its 1 dollar and 50 cents cheaper or if the full variety is not
there...count me out!"
With supporters like that, we sure don't need critics.
Supporters who are innocent by virtue of their non involvement in the
trade are easier to come by...because of their NON INVOLVEMENT in the
trade and the routine ethical choices that must be made in its daily
activity.
Reform from un-involved outsiders kinda assumes that the trade has little of its own moral authority and true believers. That is not true. It takes far more courage and ethics to practice ethical behavior in the lions den then from outside the area.
There is a luxury of claim to higher conscience afforded thru non involvement in the business. But if the involvement were more direct and if the rent had to paid in netcaught fish only, I wonder how many "supporters" we would still have.
Yes, rage against the dying of the reefs and pontificate on how to save the industry from itself...[ be this real or recreational therapy I don't know sometimes] but while you're at it why not buy only netcaught fish and support the front line troops? It adds to credibility when you speak of reform.
Steve

 

[naesco]

It is official now. The name of the movement is:



REEForm

We would like to thank a reefer who emailed us with this catchy name and slogan

REE.........Form REE..........Form REE........Form

 

[flameangel1]

Naesco,,
When is "REEform" going over to the Phillipines, diving for those fish with no cyanide, sitting on the boxes of fish in the airplanes cargo hold to make sure they are not frozen-cooked or thrown about or out on the tarmac and then going into retail to sell them ????? Of course you do know there is a lot more to getting them into your business to sell, than what I said here also.

Until YOU do all that- Please stop telling us there is ONLY one narrow path to accomplish what we all want!!!!!!!!! AND that it has to be done by July 20th, 2003 !!! ( yes, I know you did not use that date but you have threatened about the same in your posts )

I honestly wonder why hobbyists/outsiders to the myriad inner "workings" of being in this industry, think everything is SO easy !!!!!! IT IS NOT SO SIMPLE !!!!!!!!

 

[naesco]

Flameangel

There are other options.
1. Buy from those wholesalers and importers that bring in net caught fish from the Philippines and Indonesia. www.seacrop.com is an example.
2. Look now to other sources; the Red Sea; the Caribbean; Australia; the other islands and countries in Asia.

You see. There are other sources for fish into our hobby.
Just don't support the cheap cyanide poisoned P/I industy any longer.

REEForm

 

[Anonymous]

Still going I see.

Naesco--

I made this suggestion to you before I left and didn't see you respond to it. What about trying to implememt your manifesto on a more local level? I'm not really sure about canadian forms of local government, but let me give you an example. In my county (Athens/Clarke, GA) it is against county ordinance for any pet store to sell dogs and cats, because of the problem with pet over population and a high number of strays and euthanizations. This obvioulsy impacts the local pet industry as dogs are a big draw and a high dollar seller. However, enough people in the community were concerned enough to get an ordinance regulating the sale of dogs and cats in the county. What if you were to approach the problem this way? Once you have a workable local solution, you can then target the next level of government as well as provide the structure to others who may want to try to get it implemented in their area.

Remember kids, the reform starts at home.

 

[naesco]

Still going I see.

Naesco--

I made this suggestion to you before I left and didn't see you respond to it. What about trying to implememt your manifesto on a more local level? I'm not really sure about canadian forms of local government, but let me give you an example. In my county (Athens/Clarke, GA) it is against county ordinance for any pet store to sell dogs and cats, because of the problem with pet over population and a high number of strays and euthanizations. This obvioulsy impacts the local pet industry as dogs are a big draw and a high dollar seller. However, enough people in the community were concerned enough to get an ordinance regulating the sale of dogs and cats in the county. What if you were to approach the problem this way? Once you have a workable local solution, you can then target the next level of government as well as provide the structure to others who may want to try to get it implemented in their area.

Remember kids, the reform starts at home.

Thank you for your suggestion but REEForm has taken an international flavour since you were gone.
It would be very difficult to manage each and every jurisdiction.

It is much easier to simply target those countries like the Philipines and Indonesia where the use of cyanide is rampant and the industry in North America that deal in cyanide caught fish.

REEForm

 

[Anonymous]

Keep us posted.

 

[flameangel1]

Naesco,

1. Buy from those wholesalers and importers that bring in net caught fish from the Philippines and Indonesia. www.seacrop.com is an example.
2. Look now to other sources; the Red Sea; the Caribbean; Australia; the other islands and countries in Asia.

You see. There are other sources for fish into our hobby.
Just don't support the cheap cyanide poisoned P/I industy any longer.

If you would read my posts , among others who also post here, I ALREADY DO THESE, as do others on here !!!!!!
So your constant "threats" are an irritation to say the least.
Industry, as you call it, is NOT all bad, although you are lumping all of us together and trying to force a very narrow time limit and "manifesto" on us all. Fom the fisherfolk ,all the way to retail !!!! But as you are not among us on the "inside", you simply dont know the who/what/where/how ,unless you OPEN your eyes !!

 

[naesco]

Flame angel I guess you did not read my several posts that defined `industry`.
Let me do it again for you. Industry for the purpose of this thread is defined as the wholesalers and importers, those who are responsible for bringing the fish into North America and the P/I exporters.

Many of the LFS and others in the wider definition of industry support reform and have for years but with the greatest respect have not been successful to the extent that as we speak tonnes of fish, coral, the coral heads themselves and all its inhbitants are being destroyed.

REEForm will put a stop to this destruction.
Look forward to the day soon when all the fish entering North America will be free of cyanide poisoning. They will arrive healthy in LFS tanks and remain heathy in the tanks of your customers. A win win for all!

REEForm

 

[flameangel1]

The Ferver of the innocent !!!!!!!!
oh well, you will learn what the rest of us already know. MAYBE !!!!
Rome was NOT built in a day !!!

 

[Anonymous]

Many of the LFS and others in the wider definition of industry support reform and have for years but with the greatest respect have not been successful to the extent that as we speak tonnes of fish, coral, the coral heads themselves and all its inhbitants are being destroyed.

What mistakes did they make that you will avoid? How will you be different?

Look forward to the day soon when all the fish entering North America will be free of cyanide poisoning. They will arrive healthy in LFS tanks and remain heathy in the tanks of your customers. A win win for all!

Where 90% of them will be under fed and over crowded. :wink:

One thing to keep in mind when dealing with the buying and selling of things. The option to "not buy at all" is always there. Extinguishing the cyanide trade in the Phillipines and Indonesia doesn't automatically translate into a burgeoning net caught trade in the US (or Canada). Blocking the road without providing an alternate route results in an abondoned car, not a new road.

 

[naesco]

Many of the LFS and others in the wider definition of industry support reform and have for years but with the greatest respect have not been successful to the extent that as we speak tonnes of fish, coral, the coral heads themselves and all its inhbitants are being destroyed.

What mistakes did they make that you will avoid? How will you be different?

Look forward to the day soon when all the fish entering North America will be free of cyanide poisoning. They will arrive healthy in LFS tanks and remain heathy in the tanks of your customers. A win win for all!

Where 90% of them will be under fed and over crowded. :wink:

One thing to keep in mind when dealing with the buying and selling of things. The option to "not buy at all" is always there. Extinguishing the cyanide trade in the Phillipines and Indonesia doesn't automatically translate into a burgeoning net caught trade in the US (or Canada). Blocking the road without providing an alternate route results in an abondoned car, not a new road.

REEForm does not want to block any route. The option is for industry to let us know their plan and timeline for getting out of the cyanide trade.
Industry at all levels should be securing other sources of fish for their business and their customers.

We all need to close our eyes for 10 seconds and picture in your minds eye a reef laid barren by cyanide.
Now picture a reef full of life. The reef you love for your tanks.
That is what REEForm will do for all of us in the hobby.

 

[Mike King]

FWIW John Tullock used the word REEFORM in 1999

http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/aqfm ... efault.asp

just 2 cents worth of aquarium history.

Mike

 

[Kalkbreath]

FWIW John Tullock used the word REEFORM in 1999

http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/aqfm ... efault.asp

just 2 cents worth of aquarium history.

Mike

Wow! did anyone actually .......believe this nonsense back in 1997? click the link ............Peter, you out did yourself back then..........you really believe the 60% mortality after three days line?

 

[PeterIMA]

Kalk, Not only do I believe there is 60% mortality on average within 3 days on the east coast (35% in midwest, 30% DOA-DAA on the west coast), I published the information in my paper Net-Caught Cyanide-Free (I believe I sent you a copy). This information is based on a telephone survey of over 300 retailers conducted by Frank Lallo (one of the co-authors on the paper). It also is consistent with a lot of other information I have gathered over the past 20 years (including employees of importers noted for dealing in cyanide-caught fish confessing to me the appalling mortality of fishes in their facilities).

Peter Rubec

 

[naesco]

FWIW John Tullock used the word REEFORM in 1999

http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/aqfm ... efault.asp

just 2 cents worth of aquarium history.

Mike

Wow! did anyone actually .......believe this nonsense back in 1997? click the link ............Peter, you out did yourself back then..........you really believe the 60% mortality after three days line?

Peter you are to be commended for the courage of of telling it like it is. I hope you and IMA are ready for another 5 years of intense work.

I knew that 55% of the fish died instantly on the reefs and that half of those that survived, died on the beach. I had no idea that the mortality rate was so incredibly high.
REEForm will put an end to this insanity.

Kalk, would you consider being one of the spokeman for industry when we are seeking industry's reaction to our plans?
Thank you