A message from REEForm

[Anonymous]

Could be possible that Australia is a good supplier of fish (Lg- Xlg) for public aquariums? If that is the case, I am closer to the truth.

Yes, and they buy them from wholesalers all ready. Your implying that theres seperate collectors and business for Public Aquariums who's figures aren't all ready factored in , and thats just not true. As public aquariums are concerned, Australia comes from Los Angeles.

Jamie, did not last post from an Aussie collector who debated your figures?

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Could be possible that Australia is a good supplier of fish (Lg- Xlg) for public aquariums? If that is the case, I am closer to the truth.

Yes, and they buy them from wholesalers all ready. Your implying that theres seperate collectors and business for Public Aquariums who's figures aren't all ready factored in , and thats just not true. As public aquariums are concerned, Australia comes from Los Angeles.

Jamie, did not last post from an Aussie collector who debated your figures?

The collectors are the same... I guess. The Australian collector could get in contact with Lyle and Bev Squire Directors of Cairns Marine Aquarium Fish in Qld. to find out more about the $10M/year/180 collectors.

 

[Anonymous]

The collectors are the same... I guess.

Quit guessing, its making you look dumb.

Your knowledge, I mean lack of knowledge of this industry is frightning Jamie. From this quote, your questioning *IF* they are the same collectors. Do yourself a favor, think this one out a little BEFORE you reply again. How many fish do public aquariums need annually? Do you really think that they would be able to support a seperate industry then ours? I'll do you a favor, WE WHOLESALERS SUPPLY THE PUBLIC AQUARIUMS WITH THE VERY SAME FISH COLLECTED FOR OUR INDUSTRY. We at Cortez Marine have filled MANY public aquariums with LOADS of fish. Once the fill the tank, they're usually good to go for quite some time.

How many XL fish would it take to fill the missing millions in Lyles figure? The highest one would fetch would be a couple thousand, so what, a couple hundread thousand XL fish are needed yearly to fill the public aquariums quotas? Ever been to a public aquarium? They pride themselves in their care of animals and the length of time they're able to keep them alive. Here in SF, our aquarium is filled with fish that are ancient, ie. 600+lbs giant sea bass. Giant fish, old fish litter the place. They don't want/like/tolerate dead fish. So why this huge demand Jamie.

The collector I quoted knows his business quite well Jamie, he's been doing it for 20+ years and is in the tops of the game. This is his life, he doesn't need to contact Lyle and Bev, to ask about his own life. To be totally honest, Lyle was most likely mis-quoted, why don't you contact him and find out. You seem to want to defend the figure, so you contact the man. I'm positive its a bogus figure, whether Lyle said it or not. Its doesn't jive.

 

[Kalkbreath]

The collectors are the same... I guess.

Quit guessing, its making you look dumb.

Your knowledge, I mean lack of knowledge of this industry is frightning Jamie. From this quote, your questioning *IF* they are the same collectors. Do yourself a favor, think this one out a little BEFORE you reply again. How many fish do public aquariums need annually? Do you really think that they would be able to support a seperate industry then ours? I'll do you a favor, WE WHOLESALERS SUPPLY THE PUBLIC AQUARIUMS WITH THE VERY SAME FISH COLLECTED FOR OUR INDUSTRY. We at Cortez Marine have filled MANY public aquariums with LOADS of fish. Once the fill the tank, they're usually good to go for quite some time.

How many XL fish would it take to fill the missing millions in Lyles figure? The highest one would fetch would be a couple thousand, so what, a couple hundread thousand XL fish are needed yearly to fill the public aquariums quotas? Ever been to a public aquarium? They pride themselves in their care of animals and the length of time they're able to keep them alive. Here in SF, our aquarium is filled with fish that are ancient, ie. 600+lbs giant sea bass. Giant fish, old fish litter the place. They don't want/like/tolerate dead fish. So why this huge demand Jamie.

The collector I quoted knows his business quite well Jamie, he's been doing it for 20+ years and is in the tops of the game. This is his life, he doesn't need to contact Lyle and Bev, to ask about his own life. To be totally honest, Lyle was most likely mis-quoted, why don't you contact him and find out. You seem to want to defend the figure, so you contact the man. I'm positive its a bogus figure, whether Lyle said it or not. Its doesn't jive.

Hey! Im supposed to be the JERK on this board....................Yes, he{Your collector}needs to confront the people spouting the 10 M{lyle and Bev} And I think thats what Jamie was getting at..............

 

[Jaime Baquero]

The collectors are the same... I guess.

Quit guessing, its making you look dumb.

Your knowledge, I mean lack of knowledge of this industry is frightning Jamie. From this quote, your questioning *IF* they are the same collectors. Do yourself a favor, think this one out a little BEFORE you reply again. How many fish do public aquariums need annually? Do you really think that they would be able to support a seperate industry then ours? I'll do you a favor, WE WHOLESALERS SUPPLY THE PUBLIC AQUARIUMS WITH THE VERY SAME FISH COLLECTED FOR OUR INDUSTRY. We at Cortez Marine have filled MANY public aquariums with LOADS of fish. Once the fill the tank, they're usually good to go for quite some time.

How many XL fish would it take to fill the missing millions in Lyles figure? The highest one would fetch would be a couple thousand, so what, a couple hundread thousand XL fish are needed yearly to fill the public aquariums quotas? Ever been to a public aquarium? They pride themselves in their care of animals and the length of time they're able to keep them alive. Here in SF, our aquarium is filled with fish that are ancient, ie. 600+lbs giant sea bass. Giant fish, old fish litter the place. They don't want/like/tolerate dead fish. So why this huge demand Jamie.

The collector I quoted knows his business quite well Jamie, he's been doing it for 20+ years and is in the tops of the game. This is his life, he doesn't need to contact Lyle and Bev, to ask about his own life. To be totally honest, Lyle was most likely mis-quoted, why don't you contact him and find out. You seem to want to defend the figure, so you contact the man. I'm positive its a bogus figure, whether Lyle said it or not. Its doesn't jive.

Hey! Im supposed to be the JERK on this board....................Yes, he{Your collector}needs to confront the people spouting the 10 M{lyle and Bev} And I think thats what Jamie was getting at..............

Do not worry the YERK title is ONLY for you.

 

[Jaime Baquero]

The collectors are the same... I guess.

Quit guessing, its making you look dumb.

Your knowledge, I mean lack of knowledge of this industry is frightning Jamie. From this quote, your questioning *IF* they are the same collectors. Do yourself a favor, think this one out a little BEFORE you reply again. How many fish do public aquariums need annually? Do you really think that they would be able to support a seperate industry then ours? I'll do you a favor, WE WHOLESALERS SUPPLY THE PUBLIC AQUARIUMS WITH THE VERY SAME FISH COLLECTED FOR OUR INDUSTRY. We at Cortez Marine have filled MANY public aquariums with LOADS of fish. Once the fill the tank, they're usually good to go for quite some time.

How many XL fish would it take to fill the missing millions in Lyles figure? The highest one would fetch would be a couple thousand, so what, a couple hundread thousand XL fish are needed yearly to fill the public aquariums quotas? Ever been to a public aquarium? They pride themselves in their care of animals and the length of time they're able to keep them alive. Here in SF, our aquarium is filled with fish that are ancient, ie. 600+lbs giant sea bass. Giant fish, old fish litter the place. They don't want/like/tolerate dead fish. So why this huge demand Jamie.

The collector I quoted knows his business quite well Jamie, he's been doing it for 20+ years and is in the tops of the game. This is his life, he doesn't need to contact Lyle and Bev, to ask about his own life. To be totally honest, Lyle was most likely mis-quoted, why don't you contact him and find out. You seem to want to defend the figure, so you contact the man. I'm positive its a bogus figure, whether Lyle said it or not. Its doesn't jive.

Cortez Marine

F*** you.

 

[Jaime Baquero]

The collectors are the same... I guess.

Quit guessing, its making you look dumb.

Your knowledge, I mean lack of knowledge of this industry is frightning Jamie. From this quote, your questioning *IF* they are the same collectors. Do yourself a favor, think this one out a little BEFORE you reply again. How many fish do public aquariums need annually? Do you really think that they would be able to support a seperate industry then ours? I'll do you a favor, WE WHOLESALERS SUPPLY THE PUBLIC AQUARIUMS WITH THE VERY SAME FISH COLLECTED FOR OUR INDUSTRY. We at Cortez Marine have filled MANY public aquariums with LOADS of fish. Once the fill the tank, they're usually good to go for quite some time.

How many XL fish would it take to fill the missing millions in Lyles figure? The highest one would fetch would be a couple thousand, so what, a couple hundread thousand XL fish are needed yearly to fill the public aquariums quotas? Ever been to a public aquarium? They pride themselves in their care of animals and the length of time they're able to keep them alive. Here in SF, our aquarium is filled with fish that are ancient, ie. 600+lbs giant sea bass. Giant fish, old fish litter the place. They don't want/like/tolerate dead fish. So why this huge demand Jamie.

The collector I quoted knows his business quite well Jamie, he's been doing it for 20+ years and is in the tops of the game. This is his life, he doesn't need to contact Lyle and Bev, to ask about his own life. To be totally honest, Lyle was most likely mis-quoted, why don't you contact him and find out. You seem to want to defend the figure, so you contact the man. I'm positive its a bogus figure, whether Lyle said it or not. Its doesn't jive.

Hey! Im supposed to be the JERK on this board....................Yes, he{Your collector}needs to confront the people spouting the 10 M{lyle and Bev} And I think thats what Jamie was getting at..............

Do not worry the YERK title is ONLY for you.

YERK= 2JERKS

Sorry for the mistake

 

[Kalkbreath]

Hey..........I fully respect Every one that cares enough to participate in this forum.......{no matter how wrong they may be}......it is the facts and figures I contest........not the messengers ..........Yet the the dirty tone this discussion has turned into only sours the meaningful messages that lay within these posts. This board has brought about discussions / answers that no one else Dares to openly speak about and can be found nowhere else in this industry..........What we as a group discuss and discover has a huge impact on the hobby.........We are the talk of the town .........but they not only talk about our topics ........but our tone...... I have made a decision to tone my responses down a bit ............{perhaps seeing others get ugly has made me reevaluate my mannerism..........} I hope others will think about perhaps doing the same.......remember this is Kalkbreath talking, kind of like a fly remarking that the poop smells .......when I think the tone is too ugly ........its mighty ugly

 

[clarionreef]

Kalk,
I agree with your plea for civility completely. The strength of argument should carry the day, not nasty, brittle, frustrated profanity.
People who engage in this sort of behavior should be frozen out and boycotted. Reef central flat out banned Naesco. While I don't believe in banning people, I think that they underscore the need for moderators.
Hey moderators! You guys on vacation or what?
I think you should issue reprimands and close this thread for good.
Sincerely, Steve

 

[Anonymous]

personally i'd let it continue, and let the babies be seen as babies by letting people read their posts.

 

[Kalkbreath]

Kalk,
I agree with your plea for civility completely. The strength of argument should carry the day, not nasty, brittle, frustrated profanity.
People who engage in this sort of behavior should be frozen out and boycotted. Reef central flat out banned Naesco. While I don't believe in banning people, I think that they underscore the need for moderators.
Hey moderators! You guys on vacation or what?
I think you should issue reprimands and close this thread for good.
Sincerely, Steve

NO thats what I mean ........this thread is important ......it shows that several long standing beliefs are total nonsense.......one individual should not be able to have a complecte thread sealed away ............The folks at the other boards love to seal the truth away with the click of a mouse........

 

[blue hula3]

oops -

 

[blue hula3]

The value of ornamental fish in Australia is a factor tha makes a huge difference, collectors in Australia are well paid and DO not need to collect hundreds of fish to be capable of putting food on the table.

We must admit that something is really wrong in the PI and IN. This is due to the cheap fish price structure. As a result the trade is not environmentally sustainable, too many fish collected and very high unnecessary mortality.

Jaime

I think it is a mistake to assume that overexploitation only occurs when people need to put food on the table. There is that lovely human attribute called greed.

In Australia, like everywhere, there are ethical collectors and there are cowboys. The cowboys hit the reefs hard, removing large (old) specimens of slow growing coral species ... taking every last individual when they come across that rare patch of Hardly anyaroundus. Ironically, in the Green report, one of the few examples for which local depletions are mooted, the scribbled angel, is an Australian species ... a point that was made originally by Elizabeth Wood.

Yes, something is wrong in the Phils and Indonesia. Maybe better prices will help short term in terms of fishers. But it won't solve the problem for fish as people never seem adverse to making too much money. Some of the most highly valued fish in the world with huge dollar values per kg continue to get hammered exactly because the price is so good ... Orange Roughy, Patagonian toothfish, abalone. Oh, and they get poached when the price goes up as well! There needs to be management structures in place that protect brood stock / refuge populations (e.g. MPAs) and that maintain catches at sustainable levels and reduce effort to acceptable levels (e.g. total allowable catches based on resource assessments). Personally, I think that alternative livelihoods that get fishers off the reefs might be more effective than simply increasing the value ...

Wasn't someone asking how many fishers the reef in Batasan could realistically sustain?

Blue hula

 

[blue hula3]

Steve / Peter

Hang on ... our Aussie dollar is making good progress against the greenback ... particularly as your president continues to spend big bickies chasing phantom WMD :wink:

There is no snow here and I don't have to plug in my car to heat it up sufficiently to start it ... might be a long term loan.

Jaime -

Squires' business will be in the yellow pages (www.yellowpages.com.au) and DPI has a website with the necessary contacts: http://www.dpi.qld.gov.au/fishweb/

Seems that the management of the marine ornamentals fisheries in Australia produces good results for the collectors and the government.

Based on what information? And besides, my question would be whether it produces good results for fish populations. Funny that one of the examples of local depletions cited by both Elizabeth Wood and Green (well it's the same example) is an Australian one. Guess avoiding cyanide isn't sufficient to avoid overexploitation ... at least locally.

Cheers, Jessica

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Kalk,
I agree with your plea for civility completely. The strength of argument should carry the day, not nasty, brittle, frustrated profanity.
People who engage in this sort of behavior should be frozen out and boycotted. Reef central flat out banned Naesco. While I don't believe in banning people, I think that they underscore the need for moderators.
Hey moderators! You guys on vacation or what?
I think you should issue reprimands and close this thread for good.
Sincerely, Steve

Moderators,

The plea for civility applies to everyone participating in this forum. During the last 8 months or more. Cortes Marine has been attacking and insulting participants in this forum. He got to the point of calling criminals exporters in the PI, this kind of language is detrimental for the reform movement taking place herein. He has called individuals from the NGO community BASTARDS without any reprimands. These same individuals have been attacking and provoking me with insults and condescendent remarks for quite a long time now.

I shouldn't had posted that silly message.

 

[Kalkbreath]

I know, how bout they get new jobs like agriculture! Yah, thats it ! then they can become part of the number one killer of the reefs in Aust. ................Why remain in an industry that has never shown to harm the HEALTH of ONE reef in Aust........... :wink: .......eating soybeans instead of fish is not such a good idea ........Sounds to me like you ,have discovered the ten million was food fish ........the hobby portion is only a few hundred thousand......Second their are no slow growing reef building corals that I can think of in the trade from Australia......and with only a few thousand corals exported from that country per year .......its impossible to have much of an inpact even if the few thousand are collected from just a few square miles..........Take a look at a photo of the Great Barrier Reef at low tied............in just one photo , you can see more coral then is collected in a year{ in kilos}........a fifty by 100 yard section of reef has more live coral then is collected world wide by this hobby..................this works out to be about one in 250 milllion 1/250,000,000...... :: or to put in anotherway......a coral has a better chance of being hit by lightning then collected

 

[Anonymous]

I agree with your plea for civility completely. The strength of argument should carry the day, not nasty, brittle, frustrated profanity.
People who engage in this sort of behavior should be frozen out and boycotted. Reef central flat out banned Naesco. While I don't believe in banning people, I think that they underscore the need for moderators.
Hey moderators! You guys on vacation or what?
I think you should issue reprimands and close this thread for good.

I'm still here. Every conflict I have ever had to deal with has been between you and Jaime. You guys work it out. I'm not going to close an eight page thread for one wrong post. The forum is what you guys make of it, things have been mostly good lately, so let's keep it up.

 

[blue hula3]

Second their are no slow growing reef building corals that I can think of in the trade from Australia......and with only a few thousand corals exported from that country per year .......

You should come do a tour of our local fish shops ... there is a domestic trade and it does include massives. What comes into LAX is not the only indicator of what is happening around the world.

You're absolutely correct that agriculture is a major player in reef health on the GBR. But there are other reefs in Australia as well where collection takes place :wink:

Blue hula

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Jessica,

Ideally, alternative livelihoods to get the fishers off the reefs would be the solution to many of the problems in the PI and IN, but I do not think are going to be implemented in the near future. Are coastal communities and coral reefs a priority for the Filipino and Indonesian governments?

By increasing fish prices, fish collectors could learn to appreciate a bit more the value of the animals they are collecting every day. The price of fish is that low that collectors do not have the inclination to make extra efforts to keep those fish alive and under "better" conditions. This is one of the reasons why unnecesary mortality to community level is high, as consequence collectors are putting more pressure on the reefs because they must collect more fish. Please do not ask me, how high is the mortality at community level? because there is not an study about it.

Jessica, I said seems. I took Lyle Squire's information seriously. I'll double check.

Thanks for the information.

 

[blue hula3]

Ideally, alternative livelihoods to get the fishers off the reefs would be the solution to many of the problems in the PI and IN, but I do not think are going to be implemented in the near future. Are coastal communities and coral reefs a priority for the Filipino and Indonesian governments?

There are lots of examples of effective programs focusing on alternative livelihoods. The Nature Conservancy has some great ones going in Komodo Marine Park in Indonesia and in Bohol, I can think of a number of examples: marine themed crafts, seaweed aquaculture etc. Why would you think that getting truly sustainable levels of exploitation in place would be easier ? 75% of the world's fisheries are considered overexploited or in decline (www.fao.org). I reckon alternative livelihoods are way easier than managing multispecies fisheries.

By increasing fish prices, fish collectors could learn to appreciate a bit more the value of the animals they are collecting every day. The price of fish is that low that collectors do not have the inclination to make extra efforts to keep those fish alive and under "better" conditions. This is one of the reasons why unnecesary mortality to community level is high, as consequence collectors are putting more pressure on the reefs because they must collect more fish. Please do not ask me, how high is the mortality at community level? because there is not an study about it.

I've already asked (and got resounding silence from MAC) but will ask again:

What evidence is there that higher prices will lead to reduced fishing effort and reduced catches when people are so poor that they can use all the extra cash (e.g. extra fish) they can collect.

And given there is, according to MAC, big demand for "certified" fish, they should be able to sell the extra fish, no ? So why would they reduce fishing effort ?

Jessica, I said seems. I took Lyle Squire's information seriously. I'll double check.

Whether the Austrlian industry is worth $10 million, $1 million or $100,000, to assess whether it is well managed, you need information on levels of catch and effort by species and some assessment of how the populations are responding to that level of exploitation ... regionally and at a local scale. It's not Lyle's information you need to check before saying that everything is hunky dorey Down Under. It's information on the resource base.

Cheers, Jessica