A message from REEForm
- Thread starter naesco
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He's busy with his life, he doesn't need or want to get involved with us "wankers" on this board. He has little time to waste on the internet. Besides, I feel its Jamie who brought up the 10m figure, he's the one to authenticate it. People within our industry LOL at that figue, and people outside the industry, like Jamie, believe it like it came from god's mouth. So I ask you again Jamie, contact your friend. I'm sure you've got his contact info and if not, your MAC buddies most definitly can furnish it.
Guess I'll go fu<k off now, like Jamie said (and misdirected at Steve). In the future Jamie, use hacker langauge, it'll get you around that damn censor software
Gresham
Ps. I stand behind what I wrote, it may have come out wrong, but Jamie turning a blind eye to the truth pisses me off. I have no clue why I debating this with him as he's never done ANY business in importing fish other then a few token shipments like he himself has stated in this forum. He's guesses and flames out, instead of proving me wrong. The only person your proving wrong is Dave V. of MAC. He said you are the nicest, softiest spoken person he's ever met.
Guess I'll go fu<k off now, like Jamie said (and misdirected at Steve). In the future Jamie, use hacker langauge, it'll get you around that damn censor software
Gresham
Ps. I stand behind what I wrote, it may have come out wrong, but Jamie turning a blind eye to the truth pisses me off. I have no clue why I debating this with him as he's never done ANY business in importing fish other then a few token shipments like he himself has stated in this forum. He's guesses and flames out, instead of proving me wrong. The only person your proving wrong is Dave V. of MAC. He said you are the nicest, softiest spoken person he's ever met.
Jessica,
Just get the right partners, write down those alternative livelihood proposals to funding agencies and go for it. One major problem is that to implement such projects Filipinos rely only on foreign aid. When is the Filipino governement going to think about their own people?
There is another evidence that exist, as you probably have seen in fishers communities, is that collectors are killing daily a considerable number of fish due to poor handling and holding. Collectors do not care about wasting fish . They keep up to 10 wrasses in the same bag. A single plastic bag could cost them more than the value of the fish (wrasse). The fish price structure is completely wrong. Collectors are getting close to nothing (US .40 cents or less) for a fish that in the North American market can be sold for US$30.
Just get the right partners, write down those alternative livelihood proposals to funding agencies and go for it. One major problem is that to implement such projects Filipinos rely only on foreign aid. When is the Filipino governement going to think about their own people?
There is another evidence that exist, as you probably have seen in fishers communities, is that collectors are killing daily a considerable number of fish due to poor handling and holding. Collectors do not care about wasting fish . They keep up to 10 wrasses in the same bag. A single plastic bag could cost them more than the value of the fish (wrasse). The fish price structure is completely wrong. Collectors are getting close to nothing (US .40 cents or less) for a fish that in the North American market can be sold for US$30.
Jaime Baquero":6s331ozw said:
Jaime ... I did go for it ... did do it ... colleagues continue to do it and this is my basis for saying that it is being done.
I'd also encouage you to move beyond the somewhat patronising sweeping allegations about Filipino dependency on outsiders and government indifference.
The entire "community organiser" philosophy that trains social workers that focus on helping communities rather than individuals or families is a Filipino one. Filipino schools and unis (i.e. government) train huge numbers of dedicated individuals who work in communities to make a difference. Their success on a number of levels is one of the reasons for a shift to decentralised community-based management and why the Filipino model of community-based management is held up around the world as an excellent model.
I also had the pleasure of meeting / working with many dedicated government staff in the Phils.
Jaime Baquero":6s331ozw said:
Yup - I've seen it and I agree that the price structure is wrong. What I haven't seen any evidence for is whether increasing price will actually reduce landings ... it is the theory but my guess is that fishers, in the absence of other management tools, will simply hope to make even more money by selling ALL of the fish they can find ... because they need the cash. Are there any studies / pilot projects that you are aware of where fishing effort and landings were reduced when prices went up ? Or are we still guessing that it will all happen as predicted?
Jessica
Jessica,
If such is the case why almost everybody is relying on MAC's work? Please tell me what project the Filipino government has put in place to solve the cyanide use/collection of marine ornamentals. How many nets the government has distributed to collectors across the country? How many cooperatives the government has created where collectors could buy nets? How many net training courses the government has funded? Please show us the management policies developed by the Filipino government to regulate the fisheries of marine ornamental fish.
I do agree with one FACT Filipinos are the best community organizer in the world.
If such is the case why almost everybody is relying on MAC's work? Please tell me what project the Filipino government has put in place to solve the cyanide use/collection of marine ornamentals. How many nets the government has distributed to collectors across the country? How many cooperatives the government has created where collectors could buy nets? How many net training courses the government has funded? Please show us the management policies developed by the Filipino government to regulate the fisheries of marine ornamental fish.
I do agree with one FACT Filipinos are the best community organizer in the world.
Jaime Baquero":1pwasgar said:
Who is "almost everybody" ? Why would any of us wish to put all our eggs in a single basket ... or should that be all our fish in a single net ?
Jaime Baquero":1pwasgar said:
I believe my response was to your statement that the Filipino gov't has done nothing vis a vis development of alternative livelihood proposals. In fact, what you said earlier in this thread was:
Jaime Baquero":1pwasgar said:
I was merely pointing out that I believe the gov't does work on these alternative livelihood issues, as you raised. I don't know what specific actions BFAR and other agencies are taking with marine aquarium fish other than the indirect benefits to reefs arising from decreasing effort.
And, if I were advising the government, I would continue to encourage them to work on alternative livelihoods because again, I actually think it will be easier to reduce reliance on fishing then to ensure sustainability through fisheries management.
To be very clear, the other problem is that if MACs model is the only one adopted, and if they continue to focus on reducing cyanide with out dealing with the issues of sustainable LEVELS of fishing, the reefs will get stripped by nets just as they would by cyanide. The main difference is that the habitat won't get hammered to the same degree but that is poor consolation for the fish pops.
Jessica
Jaime,
I went and had a look at some time series data for fisheries landings where I had dollar values as well. There were 3 fisheries where price per pound in a given area varied by 3.5 to 4 times over the period. In none of these cases did the amount of fish landed decrease as price went up. Fishers just kept on fishing, happy for the windfall associated with higher prices.
I remain unsure why you think higher prices will lead to reduced landings.
Jessica
I went and had a look at some time series data for fisheries landings where I had dollar values as well. There were 3 fisheries where price per pound in a given area varied by 3.5 to 4 times over the period. In none of these cases did the amount of fish landed decrease as price went up. Fishers just kept on fishing, happy for the windfall associated with higher prices.
I remain unsure why you think higher prices will lead to reduced landings.
Jessica
Here in Monterey Bay, we're having a huge albacore run, fishers are catching so mutch, they driving the prices lowest in years. Some can't even pay for the trip with the entire haul. $3.99lb for sushimi grade loin! You'd think they would band together, agree not to catch as much, and keep the price high. Fishermen are just that, fishermen. Thats what they do. They'll fish themselves out of business if allowed to. I come from a long line of commercial fishermen, I'm the only one who's ever been concerned with conservation and only because I'm not a commercial fisherman.
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
Dear Jaime,
You wrote that it had gotten to the point that I had called 'criminals exporters.'
I would like to apologize to any and all criminals that were offended by those remarks.
Humbly and sincerely, Steve
You wrote that it had gotten to the point that I had called 'criminals exporters.'
I would like to apologize to any and all criminals that were offended by those remarks.
Humbly and sincerely, Steve
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
All,
One of the best ways to 'increase' landings is to guarantee social economic justice and higher prices to divers. Prices serve as BAIT to collect more... not less.
Many poor divers would love the windfall opportunity that increased prices would bring. All we good folks on this end have to do is voluntarily pay more so that...so that the benevolent exporters association would "pass on the windfall". Is that the theory?
Not so long ago, there was a serious devaluation of the peso and the exporters did not pass on the windfall to the divers at all. In fact, the devaluation kept divers at a previous peso rate as exporters enjoyed the windfall all alone.
This thing is called business and socialist price fixing of diver prices pegged to the daily dollar rate would be an interesting proposal to advance to the exporters in the Philippines.
The imagined abundance that overcollecting may bring belies not the extra effort gone into obtaining it. As its a perishable commodity however, one cannot horde, sit on and manipulate the market as in theory.
Prices drop as the threat of fish starvation and loss of unsold fishes increase...The Philippines has a very merchant class, 'turn em and burn em' business culture. Exporters are not known to read books on Mother Teresa [ or Garret Hardin ] before bedtime.
Sincerely, Steve
One of the best ways to 'increase' landings is to guarantee social economic justice and higher prices to divers. Prices serve as BAIT to collect more... not less.
Many poor divers would love the windfall opportunity that increased prices would bring. All we good folks on this end have to do is voluntarily pay more so that...so that the benevolent exporters association would "pass on the windfall". Is that the theory?
Not so long ago, there was a serious devaluation of the peso and the exporters did not pass on the windfall to the divers at all. In fact, the devaluation kept divers at a previous peso rate as exporters enjoyed the windfall all alone.
This thing is called business and socialist price fixing of diver prices pegged to the daily dollar rate would be an interesting proposal to advance to the exporters in the Philippines.
The imagined abundance that overcollecting may bring belies not the extra effort gone into obtaining it. As its a perishable commodity however, one cannot horde, sit on and manipulate the market as in theory.
Prices drop as the threat of fish starvation and loss of unsold fishes increase...The Philippines has a very merchant class, 'turn em and burn em' business culture. Exporters are not known to read books on Mother Teresa [ or Garret Hardin ] before bedtime.
Sincerely, Steve
Jessica,
Sorry for mixing up the two issues. The fact is that is the Filipino government has neglected coastal communities across the country for decades. Social and economic aspects have been just brushed off or shelved not only by exporters but also by the central government. Almost all the strategies to deal with alternative livelihoods and fish collection in the Philippines have been implemented by NGOs.
One of the major issues discussed in this forum is related to the QUALITY and health of ornamental fish. Many, please do not ask for a number because nobody knows, net caught fish are being killed by fish collectors at community level because poor handling and holding.
The price issue IS primarly ORIENTED to deal with this FACT. IT is necessary to provide fish collectors with an economic incentive, otherwise two consequences may flow from this. Firstly there is no incentive to use nets; they might well continue using cyanide, as long as they can get away with it; holding fish a little longer will result in so much cyanide being excreted that the residue will be marginally detectable. That has downstream consequences on the fish quality and very serious ones on the environment.
The second consequences is that, in order to sustain their families, the collectors will aim at as high volume of fish as possible, under long working hours. The downstream effects of that approach is that specimens, however caught, will be mishandled. Collectors will crowd fishes in holding and to the costly bags( as they are forced to do now in most places). They will not have the time, energy or inclination to change water in plastic bags, as often as required and to hand the bags gently. I saw them throwing the bags around as if they were dealing with coconuts
Poor handling and holding techniques at community are the cause of unnecessary mortality of fish. This is "estimated" to be between 20% and 30%. This 20-30% is ONLY at community level. No study about it.
Fish kept under negative conditions for extended periods of time will die at exporters facilities, during shipping, at importer facilities, retailer or aquarium hobbyists tank. Does a better price encourage collectors to offer better quality fish to the industry? I say the answer is yes. If the QUALITY issue is solved, less fish will die at community level avoiding at the same time unnecessary mortality to each level of the trade.
I'd like to see the Filipino government doing more than simply collecting the exporting fees generated by the industry.
Sorry for mixing up the two issues. The fact is that is the Filipino government has neglected coastal communities across the country for decades. Social and economic aspects have been just brushed off or shelved not only by exporters but also by the central government. Almost all the strategies to deal with alternative livelihoods and fish collection in the Philippines have been implemented by NGOs.
One of the major issues discussed in this forum is related to the QUALITY and health of ornamental fish. Many, please do not ask for a number because nobody knows, net caught fish are being killed by fish collectors at community level because poor handling and holding.
The price issue IS primarly ORIENTED to deal with this FACT. IT is necessary to provide fish collectors with an economic incentive, otherwise two consequences may flow from this. Firstly there is no incentive to use nets; they might well continue using cyanide, as long as they can get away with it; holding fish a little longer will result in so much cyanide being excreted that the residue will be marginally detectable. That has downstream consequences on the fish quality and very serious ones on the environment.
The second consequences is that, in order to sustain their families, the collectors will aim at as high volume of fish as possible, under long working hours. The downstream effects of that approach is that specimens, however caught, will be mishandled. Collectors will crowd fishes in holding and to the costly bags( as they are forced to do now in most places). They will not have the time, energy or inclination to change water in plastic bags, as often as required and to hand the bags gently. I saw them throwing the bags around as if they were dealing with coconuts
Poor handling and holding techniques at community are the cause of unnecessary mortality of fish. This is "estimated" to be between 20% and 30%. This 20-30% is ONLY at community level. No study about it.
Fish kept under negative conditions for extended periods of time will die at exporters facilities, during shipping, at importer facilities, retailer or aquarium hobbyists tank. Does a better price encourage collectors to offer better quality fish to the industry? I say the answer is yes. If the QUALITY issue is solved, less fish will die at community level avoiding at the same time unnecessary mortality to each level of the trade.
I'd like to see the Filipino government doing more than simply collecting the exporting fees generated by the industry.
cortez marine":2dnw79ei said:
My dear Steve,
I don't think that is a good strategy to use those terms specially if you are planning to go to the Philippines. I am sure some exporters in the PI are reading this post. By using those terms you are not contributing in a positive way, you make things worse.
Jaime Baquero":3mqh9ocr said:
Ok ... I can't resist.
Jaime, Steve is taking the piss. The way your quote reads above is that criminals are being insulted by being called exporters. Hence Steve's apology to the criminals ... it was really kind of funny and I thought, broke some of the tension, no ?
Jessica
And on my account, I am not arguing that higher prices may lead to better treatment.
My arguement is that higher prices will not in themselves lead to lower fishing effort and lower landings. So, although raising prices can be seen as reducing mortality and promoting equity within the trade, it is not a conservation tool as MAC claims. It will likely lead to increased effort and landings as high prices tend to in open access fisheries where neither inputs nor outputs are controlled.
All I'm saying is that whoever is promoting increased prices, noble as this is, needs to be prepared for the likely subsequent / consequent increase in effort and total catch.
Jessica
My arguement is that higher prices will not in themselves lead to lower fishing effort and lower landings. So, although raising prices can be seen as reducing mortality and promoting equity within the trade, it is not a conservation tool as MAC claims. It will likely lead to increased effort and landings as high prices tend to in open access fisheries where neither inputs nor outputs are controlled.
All I'm saying is that whoever is promoting increased prices, noble as this is, needs to be prepared for the likely subsequent / consequent increase in effort and total catch.
Jessica
blue hula3":2802ivj0 said:
Jessica,
You can have fun at my expenses... no problem. I know, is because of my broken English. Believe me, I try hard to avoid that. Sometimes it doesn't work. I'll try harder.
What S. R said was that exporters of marine ornamentals in the Philippines are criminals.
Relax Jaime ... I wasn't making fun of you ... I was chuckling over Steve's humour and such chuckles are needed from time to time ...particuarly on this board.
I speak 4 languages other than english ... all of them poorly but with great enthusiam ... I can say "i love you" in 11 languages - a skill I believe to be handy when travelling, primarily for its humour content and the stunned look on the faces of recipients of my linguistic efforts. My gaffs have included refering to the barangay captain's wife as a baboy (pig) rather than a babaye (woman). Those damn vowels. And yes, everyone laughed... lots Oh, and encouraging homosexual love in Vietnam ... because I didn't get the correct status of the husband.
Life is far too short to see jabs behind every post.
Jessica
I speak 4 languages other than english ... all of them poorly but with great enthusiam ... I can say "i love you" in 11 languages - a skill I believe to be handy when travelling, primarily for its humour content and the stunned look on the faces of recipients of my linguistic efforts. My gaffs have included refering to the barangay captain's wife as a baboy (pig) rather than a babaye (woman). Those damn vowels. And yes, everyone laughed... lots Oh, and encouraging homosexual love in Vietnam ... because I didn't get the correct status of the husband.
Life is far too short to see jabs behind every post.
Jessica
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
Why, I recall,
Just a month ago someone here making fun of my village fishermans Spanish.
[ I was trained by fisherman and came to sound like them.They couldn't spell at all so I had to invent how to spell Spanish.]
That as a snooty, elistist jab at my second language but I let it pass. Why? Because I relize a poor fisherman will never out-spell the "high class" .
Thank you Wayne for this 'Message from REEForm thread...although it has drifted so far...it really should be divided.
Steve
Just a month ago someone here making fun of my village fishermans Spanish.
[ I was trained by fisherman and came to sound like them.They couldn't spell at all so I had to invent how to spell Spanish.]
That as a snooty, elistist jab at my second language but I let it pass. Why? Because I relize a poor fisherman will never out-spell the "high class" .
Thank you Wayne for this 'Message from REEForm thread...although it has drifted so far...it really should be divided.
Steve
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