MSI Philippine Net Fund

[clarionreef]

Robert Rodriguez of Aquatic Specialties in Hayward, Calif sets forth an interesting argument that netcaught fish should cost less....
heres why:

1. Netcaught fish collecting does not kill the coral reef and therefore allows the chain of life and the tropical fish to continue to grow,multiply, recover and spawn. Abundance tends to lowers prices.

2. Netcaught fish allow and enable fish collecting closer to home as no coral habitat is compromised, allowing for collecting closer to home with less gasoline wasted. Cheaper collecting costs can lower prices.

3. Netcaught fishes tend to recover, rally, heal, eat and hang in there better lessening the need to catch more to replace them.
Less DOAs an DAAs lower landed costs and frieght losses and therefore prices can be cheaper.

4. Netcaught fishes involve no bribes, no jail time losses, or cyanide costs making for a cheaper cost of doing business ...and possible lower prices.

5. Netcaught fish are possible to collect everywhere as netting material is easier to obtain and distribute then cyanide. It easier and safer to initiate collecting activity....which allows greater fish supply, lowering prices.

6. Netcaught fish are unattractive to environmental money laundering schemes , Boomerang Aid and fake mega multi-million projects that want to pass their costs onto the trade. Legal, sustainable fish supplies lessen the need for "outsider" reforms.

7. Netcaught fishes don't sell well at all unless mixed with cheaper cyanide fish variety. If they were cheaper then cyanide fish to begin with, they would be more readily accepted. Acceptance and market viability can increase their popularity, their diversity and lower their prices.

8. Netcaught fishes...when marketed as a big deal turn off all but the truer believers, losing 95% of the customer base that simply will not act on professes ethics. this consumer rejection ruins the achievement and damages netcaught efforts. Netcaught fishes are way too expensive it is thought. Unsold netcaught fishes often waste away in limbo and become unsaleable. These losses could be avoided if the fish were cheaper in the first place. Afterall...it is cheaper o produce netcaught fishes then cyanide fishes. Cyanide is expensive...nets are not.

9.Netcaught fishes make it easier for dealers to make the right choice if they have no other choice. Netcaught fishes can remove the feelings of guilt and hypocricy associated with subsidizing reef killing for a living.
Netcaught fishes can do away with the bad press, frequent alarms, risks of regulation and danger of shutdown that cyanide fishing carries.
The peace of mind that legality and sustainable practice allows can save the industry and allow fisheskeeping to survive as a hobby and a trade....which is far better then no fish at any price.

So...netcaught fishes are worth less because they do away with the expensive and suicidal practice of cyanide poisoning which is far too expensive to carry into the 21st century.

Thank you Mr Rodriguez for the memo.

Steve

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Hi,

I agree 100% with all 9 points...............but ... we all know what happen to net caught fish that are mis-handled and kept under negative conditions at community level.

1) There is high mortality to community level meaning that collectors have to collect more fish, as consequence more pressure on the coral reefs, in order to make enough money to feed the family.

A concrete effort is required to solve this problem at community level. By working on it, I am sure the 9 points described by Mr. Rodriguez would complement nicely.

Of course that cyanide is a big problem, but handling and holding at community level is also a huge problem.

Jaime

 

[Anonymous]

Hi,

I agree 100% with all 9 points...............but ... we all know what happen to net caught fish that are mis-handled and kept under negative conditions at community level.

1) There is high mortality to community level meaning that collectors have to collect more fish, as consequence more pressure on the coral reefs, in order to make enough money to feed the family.

A concrete effort is required to solve this problem at community level. By working on it, I am sure the 9 points described by Mr. Rodriguez would complement nicely.

Of course that cyanide is a big problem, but handling and holding at community level is also a huge problem.

Jaime

100% agree. If you don't hold the fish proper, ship them proper and kill them by the thousands what good are you really doing? Some of the worst shippers who have had the highest DOA/DAA in my experience have been the fresh eco outfits. It's quite a shame really. It's so hard to handle that even though they collected them right, they slaughterred them with their own hands due to lack of experience and training.

 

[clarionreef]

Handling begins with collecting. There is by definition no genuine collector training imagineable that does not frontload and focus on handling reform.
Handling is collecting and collecting is handling.
Collector training done right from the beginning by real fish people would have never not known this.
Only non fish oriented people can make the mistakes so glaring as to defy credulity...

Commercial expertise and commercial understanding has never been respected in the formation of the history list of big reform proposals.
It has been listened to selectively, culled, winnowed, re-shaped and creatively edited to fit another agenda.
Most groups are led by careerists and completely non fish people .
The result has been the logical drift towards poor results and non-competence.

The fisherfolk are still waiting for what they know is possible...and their lives have not been advanced all this time.

Making the issue unattractive for plunder may help weed out the con artists and let better policies and procedures emerge.
Normal, commercial training of fisherfolk may perhaps begin if not held hostage to big money schemes that minimize the fieldwork.
its just a fishery with a few thousand fishers it. No big deal really.
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

So let me recap something you and I both lived thru together:

I'll leave out the names of the outfits though and who was helping them as that doesn't really pertain to what I am saying and will only serve to create more drama.

PI, we dealt with three new budding "eco" exporters. Al sent so many DOA/DAA/Skinny fish we lost our shorts every shipment.

Bali, same deal. The eco outfit nearly bankrupted us with the mortality. Not to mention they forgot what we told them EVERY shipment. The quitons being sent as abalone were pretty funny, as was all the miss ID'd fish. It was always a joke when unpacking their shipments and seeing what they were calling things that day.

Non could handle/ship fish to save their lives. Two had/have VERY active "net trainers" working with them. Same guy was involved in both the PI and Bali outfit. The other two PI outfit was not connected to him in any manor IIRC.

:lol: the one PI outfit I speak of was so incompetent with the whole deal they sent all our fish to an airport over 500 miles away disregarding what we told them (SF, not LA) both verbally and via emails/faxes.

 

[Jaime Baquero]

The fact is that the major suppliers of MO are developing countries such as Pi and Ind. Most of the fish, in those countries, are kept in plastic bags for days. Holding fish in such conditions is detrimental for its health. High ammonia concentration, low oxygen, low pH, high temperature in a plastic bag could be for a fish as bad as CN. All those factors.... together kill fish!

Jaime

 

[naesco]

So let me recap something you and I both lived thru together:

I'll leave out the names of the outfits though and who was helping them as that doesn't really pertain to what I am saying and will only serve to create more drama.

PI, we dealt with three new budding "eco" exporters. Al sent so many DOA/DAA/Skinny fish we lost our shorts every shipment.

Bali, same deal. The eco outfit nearly bankrupted us with the mortality. Not to mention they forgot what we told them EVERY shipment. The quitons being sent as abalone were pretty funny, as was all the miss ID'd fish. It was always a joke when unpacking their shipments and seeing what they were calling things that day.

Non could handle/ship fish to save their lives. Two had/have VERY active "net trainers" working with them. Same guy was involved in both the PI and Bali outfit. The other two PI outfit was not connected to him in any manor IIRC.

:lol: the one PI outfit I speak of was so incompetent with the whole deal they sent all our fish to an airport over 500 miles away disregarding what we told them (SF, not LA) both verbally and via emails/faxes.

So what did you do, Gresham? Did you go back to cyanide caught fish.
Wayne

 

[naesco]

Hi,

I agree 100% with all 9 points...............but ... we all know what happen to net caught fish that are mis-handled and kept under negative conditions at community level.

1) There is high mortality to community level meaning that collectors have to collect more fish, as consequence more pressure on the coral reefs, in order to make enough money to feed the family.

A concrete effort is required to solve this problem at community level. By working on it, I am sure the 9 points described by Mr. Rodriguez would complement nicely.

Of course that cyanide is a big problem, but handling and holding at community level is also a huge problem.

Jaime

But Jaime, how can we be critical of the Philippine fishers who have poor training and poor equipment when good ole USA caught yellow tangs arrive in emaciated condition due to poor treatment.

We can help the Philippine fisherman and thus save lots of fish but until the cyanide exporters and their stateside cohorts are stopped not only the fish but the reefs and the other critters are destroyed.

Wayne Ryan

 

[Anonymous]

So let me recap something you and I both lived thru together:

I'll leave out the names of the outfits though and who was helping them as that doesn't really pertain to what I am saying and will only serve to create more drama.

PI, we dealt with three new budding "eco" exporters. Al sent so many DOA/DAA/Skinny fish we lost our shorts every shipment.

Bali, same deal. The eco outfit nearly bankrupted us with the mortality. Not to mention they forgot what we told them EVERY shipment. The quitons being sent as abalone were pretty funny, as was all the miss ID'd fish. It was always a joke when unpacking their shipments and seeing what they were calling things that day.

Non could handle/ship fish to save their lives. Two had/have VERY active "net trainers" working with them. Same guy was involved in both the PI and Bali outfit. The other two PI outfit was not connected to him in any manor IIRC.

:lol: the one PI outfit I speak of was so incompetent with the whole deal they sent all our fish to an airport over 500 miles away disregarding what we told them (SF, not LA) both verbally and via emails/faxes.

So what did you do, Gresham? Did you go back to cyanide caught fish.
Wayne

Yah, that's the ticket Wayne :roll: Do you even pretend to read my posts and understand my position? Have I ever said or done something to make you think I would EVER support CN caught MO fish? Your really pissing me off, I have a dozen 4 letter words I want to post to you right now buddy. This is like the fifth time you have said such dribble to me and quite frankly I have had it. You have done nothing to help but take the orbital position of talking a talk but not walking the walk. I do both, you should try it some day. Maybe your wife would support it if you asked, or mabye shes just like you.

I don't work in wholesale any longer as there is no local outfit I feel is kosher enought to work at. It's 100% clean or nothing for me!

 

[Anonymous]

So let me recap something you and I both lived thru together:

I'll leave out the names of the outfits though and who was helping them as that doesn't really pertain to what I am saying and will only serve to create more drama.

PI, we dealt with three new budding "eco" exporters. Al sent so many DOA/DAA/Skinny fish we lost our shorts every shipment.

Bali, same deal. The eco outfit nearly bankrupted us with the mortality. Not to mention they forgot what we told them EVERY shipment. The quitons being sent as abalone were pretty funny, as was all the miss ID'd fish. It was always a joke when unpacking their shipments and seeing what they were calling things that day.

Non could handle/ship fish to save their lives. Two had/have VERY active "net trainers" working with them. Same guy was involved in both the PI and Bali outfit. The other two PI outfit was not connected to him in any manor IIRC.

:lol: the one PI outfit I speak of was so incompetent with the whole deal they sent all our fish to an airport over 500 miles away disregarding what we told them (SF, not LA) both verbally and via emails/faxes.

Was this back in 2001-2003? I remember some shipments with almost 100% DOA. :roll:

 

[Anonymous]

Chris, no other US based wholesaler/LFS was buying from any I listed at the time so unless you heard it direct from us, your talking about something else Now if you where in Canada at the time and had a different name, then you would have seem it first hand like me. I would say closer to 50-70%, but definitely not close to 100%.

The only near 100% I can recall wasn't from any of them but rather Brazil and even then it was not their fault but rather the Texas branch of US Customs!!!

 

[PeterIMA]

Gresham,

It is true to say that there is a big problem in the trades in both freshwater and marine ornamental fishes pertaining to the way they are
handled and shipped irrespective of whether we are talking about fish from Brazil or fish originating from SE Asia.

Even if the fish are net-caught, one can expect problems, if the fish are
not properly handled and shipped. The problem starts at the point of collection and in the villages, before they get to exporters who may (not always) be applying state of the art filtration and disease control etc. In the case of the study by Christina Schmidt with an export facility in Bali, there was a high DAA before the fish were exported.

Ferdinand Cruz has already posted information indicating that exporters situated in northern Bali have high mortality. The fish that Ferdinand purchased from them continued to die after he moved them to the holding facility in Les. When Ferdinand took over that facility about a year ago, there was a very high mortality (in the facility) with net-caught fish. By implementing better holding and transport methods from the colletors to Les, the mortality in the facility is now less than 2%. I have been working with Telapak to improve the shipping methods overseas. This has resulted in a marked reduction in the morality associated with MO net-caught fish being received in the Canada, Europe and the USA.

With the reductions in mortality, the collectors in Les have markedy increased their incomes. The net-caught fish can be competetive (pricewise) with cyanide-caught fish on the world market because of the reductions in mortality rates.

I agree that net-caught fish do not have to cost more to importers provided these problems are dealt with. Unfortunately, the trade in general has not put its money where it is needed: for net trainings and for trainings to improve the shipping and handling.


Peter Rubec

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Handling, holding and husbandry practices at collection points and exporters facilities are major problems identified and discussed during the last 30 years (at least), very little has been done to correct this situation and as consequence thousands of fish go to the garbage daily. The more serious impact is on the coral reefs since collectors have to fish more and more to satisfy the demand in developing countries.

jaime

 

[clarionreef]

Jaime
Are you suggesting that the MAMTI project with all the influence of MAC and Reefcheck onboard is not adressing the problem?
Thats a pretty serious charge after all the years of work and effort, budget , staff and struggle they have invested.
steve

 

[Mike King]

Sounds like Reef Check is no longer working with the MAC here's a clip from his last Coral list post.

"As of January 1, 2008 Reef Check has reluctantly withdrawn support from the Marine Aquarium Council's certification program due to its failure, however we continue to believe that many elements of the program can be usefully applied to management of the marine aquarium trade, and we continue to work with the trade to try to encourage this use."

Gregor Hodgson, PhD
orig. post on coral-list

 

[PeterIMA]

Mike, Yes, I saw the posting on the Coral Reef list server. ReefCheck stated that the MAC's programs have been a failure. They appear to be stating that they plan to take over the role played by the MAC.

I question whether ReefCheck's programs under MAMTI have been succesful. Perhaps, someone who has worked with ReefCheck can answer this question. What makes ReefCheck any more qualified to work with MO collectors to deal with the problems associated with the marine aquarium trade, such as the use of cyanide, overfishing, and the need for fair equity in pricing?

Peter Rubec

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Jaime
Are you suggesting that the MAMTI project with all the influence of MAC and Reefcheck onboard is not adressing the problem?
Thats a pretty serious charge after all the years of work and effort, budget , staff and struggle they have invested.
steve

This is not a problem that is going to be solved by NGO's, it has been demonstrated over and over. It is a problem that MUST be solved by the industry itself. When I say industry I mean .... retailers, wholesalers, importers, exporters, middlemen/women, and collectors. They should work together if they want this trade to have future...otherwise its closure is closer. The fact finding mission that PIJAC sent to the Philippines in 84 described this problem(handling/holding) in its report, since then nobody has done nothing, except isolated efforts here and there. MAC was not there in 1984...was it?....but YOU were there.....what happened.......I see....nobody listened to you. I am not blaming you, just saying that this industry doesn't care, they do not want to listen, they do not want to act together.

jaime

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Steve,

I forgot to mention that the participation of government(s) agency(ies) that mange the natural resources is also very important. They DO have to regulate the trade. The industry in countries such as the Ph and Ind do not care about what happen to their coral reefs and fish populations. The industry this side of the pond contribute to this eco-cide by operating as normal as if they didn't know about the negative impact the MO trade is having on coral reefs in those countries.

jaime

 

[Anonymous]

Gresham,

It is true to say that there is a big problem in the trades in both freshwater and marine ornamental fishes pertaining to the way they are
handled and shipped irrespective of whether we are talking about fish from Brazil or fish originating from SE Asia.

Even if the fish are net-caught, one can expect problems, if the fish are
not properly handled and shipped. The problem starts at the point of collection and in the villages, before they get to exporters who may (not always) be applying state of the art filtration and disease control etc. In the case of the study by Christina Schmidt with an export facility in Bali, there was a high DAA before the fish were exported.

Ferdinand Cruz has already posted information indicating that exporters situated in northern Bali have high mortality. The fish that Ferdinand purchased from them continued to die after he moved them to the holding facility in Les. When Ferdinand took over that facility about a year ago, there was a very high mortality (in the facility) with net-caught fish. By implementing better holding and transport methods from the colletors to Les, the mortality in the facility is now less than 2%. I have been working with Telapak to improve the shipping methods overseas. This has resulted in a marked reduction in the morality associated with MO net-caught fish being received in the Canada, Europe and the USA.

With the reductions in mortality, the collectors in Les have markedy increased their incomes. The net-caught fish can be competetive (pricewise) with cyanide-caught fish on the world market because of the reductions in mortality rates.

I agree that net-caught fish do not have to cost more to importers provided these problems are dealt with. Unfortunately, the trade in general has not put its money where it is needed: for net trainings and for trainings to improve the shipping and handling.


Peter Rubec

Well since you mentioned them by name, something I was trying not to do A lot of the problems we experienced with Les was not poor handling but poor holding. The amount of fish with Ich from them was UNREAL, not to mention all the starving fish. The fish never had a fighting chance. The response from them was "it's an open system".

 

[PeterIMA]

Gresham, I was not involved with Les when the events you described occurred. Neither was Ferdinand Cruz. Ferdinand presented a graph at MO08 that showed a decline in the mortality of MO fish in the Les holding facility from over 70% to less than 5% over the past year. So, I believe that the problems you mentioned with mortality have been rectified. Likewise, the fish I receive from Les do not have disease problems. Ich is almost non-existent on the fish that I have been receiving.

As I stated, high mortality is a widespread problem in other holding facilities in nothern Bali. This appears to be related ot the fact that fish are transported from other islands by boat (sometimes for periods as long as 15 days) to the facilities in Bali. The fish are held in bags on the boats and in the villages and stressed in the ways that Jaime described in his SeaWind paper (pertaining to bad holding and handling in the Philippines).

Ferdinand has introduced better packing, holding, and shipping techniques
that have largely eliminated these problems. Starved fish were a problem recently when the intake pipe to the holding facility in Les was damaged by a storm. During this period the fish were not fed. It is general practice to feed the fish and condition them prior to export. This requires an open system (water exchange with the ocean).



Peter