The Big Switch

[horge]

Jaime, Steve, Mike, et al:

Are we done now?

Uhmmm, there's this massive shyte-load of problems that need solving,
and while I'm not 100% certain this Forum can do anything to help
find a solution...

This spitefest sure as hell can't.


Jaime,
If Steve is taking potshots at NGO's, then yes, there ought to be some evidence to back it up. His credentials and history with some of those very same NGO's counts in my book. As acrid as his criticisms are, they are nevertheless a potential source of useful information towards change. As I suggested to John above, there's a lot of wealth to be mined out of perceived criticisms.

Steve,
You DO believe in redemption, right?
Maybe these NGO lemons can redeem themselves.
Not a bad idea to leave the door of cordiality just a crack open, no?
If I could bite my tongue while ignorant collectors in the 80's explained to me just how they used cyanide, it was because I was aiming to reform them with information and a bit of training.
Maybe it's time to train these NGO's in reef-safe NGO-ing.
How would you talk to a trainee?

Mike,
I agree that MAC is quite a bit past the honeymoon stage to excuse gaping lapses.
If it is sloppy, then we can suggest ways to rationalize its battle orders.
If it is ignoring good advice, then we keep trying to advise while taking comfort in the fact that MAC is not the only game in town.

If MAC is being exclusionary ---wanting to BE the only game in town, then yeah... I'd have a pretty serious problem with that, since they haven't got their game down, and it's unfair to others who DO. Others are already delivering totally netcaught to the US market.

Folks, I'm not asking that we paper over our differences and hurts, make peace and unite under one organization! I'm just asking for the identification of SPECIFIC problems that can be discussed towards finding a workable solution. These specific problems can get shrouded in the very way we present them.

Ferdie's post brought one problem to light: result switching once outside of CDT Lab.

I say one solution is babysitting the test specimens and test results.
Surely you can find a way to have trustworthy reps keep an eye on any crucial CDT and results for the couple of days it takes in Quezon City (or wherever the sample is being tested). Any takers?


Our rickety boat is fighting heavy seas, and we need every hand on deck.
Some of those on board will be less useful, less competent, less honest than I'd like, but maybe we can be choosy after we make it to harbor.

 

[PeterIMA]

Horge,
Since, I was involved along with Dr. Don McAlliser in choosing Haribon for the Net-training conducted with IMA Canada, I have direct knowledge of the events. Mr. Robinson is not wihout blame. I have a file cabinet full of damning information. Those who throw stones should not live in glass houses.

I agree with your comments about CDT and the need to support Ferdinand Cruz's efforts working with the net-collectors and the Local Government Units (LGUs).


Peter Rubec

 

[horge]

(try to imagine an old teletype machine banging this one out)

......let's.... ....focus.... ......on......
......specific... .....issues.... ....for.... ....discusssion....
......towards.... ....workable..... .....solutions....END



(Now try this Vulcan mind-meld --with me)

Idon'tgiveacuke'slimpturdwhodidwhattowhomunlessitwasachargeable
offenseandeventhenit'suptoyouandthecourts,somaybeIstilldon'tgivehalfacrap.
You'reallgoingtodiewaysoonerthanyouwant,somakeyourremainingtime
onthisforumcountforsomethingotherthanthistitfortatBS.Declarevictoryandgohome
thencomebackandlet'sgettowork.Ohlookit'sJosieMaranonTV.WherewasI?

 

[clarionreef]

Peter,
Please release anything you have to the public...especially the pleas to Dr. MacAllister to intervene and stop them from embezzling the program to death. You have acknowledged this several times and know it to be true. Whats with the sudden switch?

Moderator?? Referee...umpire?
How bout a seperate thread on the Haribon era of training/non training and like a bad TV show, no one has to click on it if they don't like the subject matter. They put warnings on packs of cigarettes and cleaning solvents...movies and road signs don't they? We could step outside so to speak.
I personally don't mind serious free expression but some believe erroneously that we are all somehow looking for the same thing. I wish that were true. We are not!
Horge,
I take your advice with respect. However, I wonder if you really want to retrain old dogs ie. American [ and Canadian] NGOs.
Haven't you had enough of the Yanks trying to decide your futures in the Philippines? I for want would like to see fresh blood rise up in the Philippines and with reference to the mistakes of the Yanks, don't repeat them.
My dream would be for BFAR and Filipino NGOs get really patriotic and make all the outsiders who make hay on these issues go away...by virtue of there deeds and dedication. How do you watch this cow get milked for 20 years without success? Filipinos couldn't do any worse and to tell you the truth, right now the Americans depend on them to a great extent because of their emerging competence.
Yanks are supposed to assist if and when invited. Filipinos should be the bosses and calling the shots. If a Yank is unproductive, send him home. When Yanks call the shots, they never fail in their own eyes and they never fire them selves.
Isn't is time to determine your own destiny and tell the foreigners its time they left? OK, use one or two, but don't let them build careers and Western salaries off of your problems.
Onward, there is work to do in the future that involves new players and new vision.
Sincerely, Steve

 

[mkirda]

Mr. Robinson is not wihout blame. I have a file cabinet full of damning information. Those who throw stones should not live in glass houses.

Peter and Steve,

Please take this back off-line.
Pretty please with sugar on top?

None of this will help.
Finding funding for Ferdie to do net training?
That would be a step in the right direction.
Going over the mistakes of the past, slinging mud and pointing fingers?
A few miles in the wrong direction, in a place without roadsigns.
Going over mistakes of the past to ensure that they are not repeated?
A welcome respite from this rancor.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[PeterIMA]

Steve,

You have accused IMA of being foreigners (Americans) telling Filipinos how to manage their affairs. Actually, all of our staff in the Philippines, Indonesia, Vietnam, Fiji, Hong Kong, Vanuatu, and Australia are citizens of each respective country where we have offices. IMA staff in each of these countries are working to find solutions to better manage their marine resources and coastal habitats for the benefit of local peoples. We have American staff in Hawaii, USA, who coordinate our international programs. We also have American staff in Guam, and the Marshall Islands (US territories). I don't see this as being Americans imposing their will on countries like the Philippines. IMA's country programs are developed by the staff in their respective countries.

I am a Canadian and a permanent US resident.

Peter Rubec

 

[MaryHM]

Tell ya what boys, you keep arguing about what NGO did what to who 15 years ago. In the meantime I'll be continuing to raise money for nets. Am I saving the world? Not hardly. But at least I'm doing something other than focusing on the past- I'm taking a step forward into the future. Not sure what I'm going to find there, but at least I'm willing to take the risk instead of hiding in the past. There's enough bull$hit right here in the good old present to deal with. Let's deal with that stuff and work toward the future. In the time you've spent arguing, I've raised another $500.

 

[dizzy]

Mary,
Speaking about living in the past, have any of you read "The Painted Bird" by Jerzy Kosinski? Do you know what a Pecking Party is? I'll do my best to describe it for you. A group of chickens are sitting around shooting the ****. One chicken notices a small blemish on one of the other birds and decides to try and pluck it off. His pecking opens a wound and the sight of the open wound makes some of the other chickens join in. As the others join in the blood starts to fly and some splatters on other chickens in the area. The other chickens see this blood and all start to join in. The pecking causes more blood to splatter and soon blood is flying near and far and all the chickens have joined in the pecking. Some of the chickens who were doing the early pecking are now covered in blood and are being pecked to death. The end result is a lot of dying or wounded birds. Philippine national passtime (per John) aside, pecking parties are not fun to watch. Well maybe just a little.

 

[MaryHM]

The end result is a lot of dying or wounded birds.

Nice analogy. Another result is that the smart birds fly off, disgusted with the whole bloody mess.

 

[dizzy]

Mary,
Chickens can't fly.

 

[MaryHM]

The smart ones can.

If you prefer, I'll just say "The smart ones strut away, disgusted by the whole bloody mess." Like that better, huh Mitch?? Wanna take it outside??? C'mon, what are ya? Chicken??!! :twisted:

 

[horge]

Tinola Chicken

1 medium size chicken, cut up into standard pieces
1 tbsp coarse salt
2 small white onions
3 small buds of garlic
1 piece jungle ginger, under half the size of the chicken's drumstick
1 cup malunggay leaves --you can substitute chili pepper leaves
1 chayote ---find it in Mexican food stores.
2 tbsp. patis (a descendant of the garum sociorum of Rome & Byzantium)
water (preferably NOT from Quezon City taps, hehe)


Slice the onion oriental style and smash the garlic to get the peel off.
Rub salt onto the chicken pieces.
Peel, then julienne the ginger.
Get the oil hot in a suitably-sized pot
Saute the garlic and onions in the pot over high heat, and the moment the onion starts to caramelize, throw the chicken pieces in, and stir with a large spoon to get the chicken skin somewhat seared.

Add ginger and the patis (you'd better have good kitchn venting systems to keep the pungent smell of patis from affecting the rest of the house) and give it a few more minutes of dry stirring, then add enough water to nearly cover the chicken. Lower the heat to get it to a very low boil. Cover and let cook for 15 minutes.

Purists insist on using chicken killed in cockfights, for flavor (tough chewing though), but you can compensate for a bland farm chicken by chucking in a chicken-flavor bouillion.

The malunggay or chili pepper leaves have to be rinsed and then de-twigged. The chayote has to be peeled (carefully --it's a slippery little bast, and you can get hurt real easy) and then quartered, removing the soft seed inside. Add the veggies to the soup, stirring them in, and leave partially uncovered.

If you're spoiling for a fight or just need to get off on adrenal conflict you can throw in one or two cut-up labuyo chili pepper --about the size of a guppy sans fins. Use more than five labuyo if you're feeling genocidal.

When the chayote is easily pierced with a fork, you're good to go.
Have either patis or salt ready at the table for if you need it.

Serve with hot, steaming white rice, to enemies or friends.
Enjoy. Belch discreetly.
Then get back to work.



.

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Steve,

You didn't answer the questions. Instead, you accused NGOs of wrong doing once again, this without showing an evidence. You have been doing this since you reappered after over a decade of absence.

During those many years of absence you did NOTHING to help solving the problem in the Philippines. Fortunately, there were some NGOs in the Philippines working with the fisherfolks and the coastal communities, those NGOs trainned 1,900 collectors to use nets instead of cyanide. Today, there are in the Philippines VERY GOOD filipino trainers that can do an excellent job training other collectors. From that point of view we can say that the technical aspect of the program is sustainable, meaning that the Philippines doesn't need trainers coming from overseas. Today, many of those collectors are still using the nets. Steve, we did all that during your absence.

Those NGOs did all the work without the support of the marine aquarium industry. It was because small grants that we got from the canadian government that we implemented the net training program in the Philippines.

I hope to get answers of "substantive nature" to my previous questions.

Respectfully

Jaime Baquero

 

[tstone]

removed by tstone

 

[clarionreef]

Hello Moderator, et al,
Should this continue? If baited, should I not answer with more specificity??
I have no problem with a free wheeling discussion of the past, but there seems to be more interest in "moving on" then finding out what went wrong.
I suggested a totally different thread on Haribon to reveal all about their sabatoge of the reform movement at its most critical juncture. Is it better to let them get away with it [ actually they have] and just move on?
Jaimes just begging for the truth and I'd like to give it to him...but not if the good people here don't care to see it...and not if it harms the progress of more relevant discussion among more relevant contributors.
Sincerely, Steve

 

[flameangel1]

for the record , imo--one learns a lot from the mistakes in the past..
Past facts hidden under rugs do not change futures !!!!!
Ignoring them does not help anyone.

But, one can easily read between the lines, to know it is NOT safe for certain people in "enemy" territory , to state the specifics of what they are encountering NOW. Suffice it to say that we who are paying attention to ALL that is written in this forum, are gaining a great deal of insight..

Pecking parties are not good , but one does learn from them.
If everyone here has to couch every reply/comment with careful consideration for every word, nothing will really ever be said to help anyone !!!!! All we will get is "niceties" that tell us nothing at all !!!!!

 

[mkirda]

for the record , imo--one learns a lot from the mistakes in the past..
Past facts hidden under rugs do not change futures !!!!!
Ignoring them does not help anyone.

If the past is any indication, discussion on the successes and failures of the various players in the NGO arena is practically impossible.
Many, many people's identities are tied into their own roles in the NGOs.
All get defensive when what someone else sees as a failure is brought up, and the resulting posts are generally useless.

I personally would love to see Jaime discuss OVI and what they did right, and more importantly, what they did wrong. Add to it a frank assessment of what they could have done to improve, the entire thread would be informative and constructive.

I'd like to see the same thing out of Peter and IMA, of others within MAC, etc., etc.

For the record, I'd also like to see world peace and harmony between all peoples.

The unfortunate truth is that none of this is ever likely to happen.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[clarionreef]

Judy,
And the "be nice" movement is strong.
In personal life and social life we all look for that! Of course we do.
The futher away the subject matter is the easier it is to stay nice. The closer it gets the harder. Just look at the Seahorse wars going on in another department right now. Anyone seen all the venom on this?
And the Salt wars gone by...
If you import tropicaL FISH FOR A LIVING AND THERE ARE NO NETCAUGHT FISH TO BUY THAT COUNT...ONE AUTOMATICALLY AND QUITE NATURALLY starts to wonder...so many years of training...so few fish...whats up?
Substance be damned...we must stay nice. Nicer than those seahorse people anyway.
Pleasantly yours, Steve

 

[flameangel1]

Substance be damned...we must stay nice

Guess I am in the minority here, but SUBSTANCE is what I want to KNOW about !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
and it does not matter how it gets here, just so it does !!!!!!!

Maybe if one said "good morning" before that substance is revealed, it would cover the "niceties" mindset of some on here.

 

[flameangel1]

what they did right, and more importantly, what they did wrong. Add to it a frank assessment of what they could have done to improve, the entire thread would be informative and constructive.

Agreed !!!!!! from ALL of the parties who DO know the facts !!!!