Where should we apply pressure?

[Anonymous]

Well,
The new by laws determine an eligible candidate for membership to be a commercial outfit that tanks fish and deals with customers face to face.
Drop-shippers and garage operations who deal only thru the net are not eligible and will have their money returned.
We defend the interests of marinelife dealers who are in the front lines of educating the public, working wirth them, giving them direct advice, conditioning fish and getting wet for a living.
The purely online entities who see niether fish nor customers are simply not welcome. Perhaps the trends worldwide are to minimize the human element and cash in thru the internet...but they are not what AMDA is for. Supporting the trends that ruin real storefront retailers is simply not our mission.
If the AMDA sticker is ever to stand for anything, it must first stand for the defense of all the frontline hardworking dealers whos businesses are undercut and damaged by the opportunists, lowballers and fly by nighters invading the trade. Of course we'll never keep out all the flies, but we don't have to leave the door open.
Sincerely, Steve Robinson, AMDA pres

Steve

thanx for the reply-but part of what i need to know still isn't answered- mebbe it wasn't implied in the question

so ANY brick and mortar store can pay for a sticker and get it?

do you folks try to verify in any way if the particular store husbands their livestock correctly, and that the store isn't just 'another lfs looking for a sticker that'll help them sell more livestock'?

i ask because if a store's only criteria is to be brick and mortar, and nothing else, then the skeptic in me says that it's no different than a mac sticker

in the sense that the standards i'm looking for still aren't being met, it doesn't matter which end's standards aren't being checked up on

even if amda's standards are higher than macs, and more honest, the sticker is still useless w/out 'enforcement' of standards on BOTH ends

 

[JennM]

AMDA sticker is a helluva lot cheaper than a MAC sticker But I also doubt that AMDA has the money or resources to send inspectors around to make sure that each shop upholds standards.

While it's nice to see somebody sticking up for the bricks and mortar shops, IMO it makes no difference because there is no substance behind the sticker (sorry Steve...). Just because one fits the criteria doesn't make it any better than somebody who didn't pay to join. It would not be practical to spend AMDA's money on inspections or the like - but to say that there are standards upheld is a bit of a misnomer. Just as I am critical of MAC about their standards, AMDA cannot claim to uphold standards either.

I have a PIAG sticker (Pet Industry Ass'n of GA) and all it is, is a sticker. Won't be investing my $35 in that again. Took them over a year to send me the sticker, took them 6 months to cash my check(s)... I joined twice because I thought my first check got lost in the mail! All I have gained is a sticker... there is no "advantage" to being a member, I don't get anything out of it. No support, no information, no monthly meetings about industry issues.... zip.

Jenn

 

[clarionreef]

Folks,
Policing stores site by site is not even remotely possible and not the mission.
And besides...since buying cyanide fish is also taboo, guess what. Nearly all of you fail anyway!
The mission is to move towards a better place and evolve better ethics and ways of doing business. The sticker, is just a vote that you wish that to be done.
Personally, that sticker means as much to me as all the CDT stickers on the wall. Only then shallowest of dealers think their responsibility ends with the sticker on the wall.
What really counts are deeds. What we do and what we manage to accomplish vis a vis reforming and promoting reform in the industry.
Thats a serious struggle that we have already thrown ourselves into and will step it up from here on. The net training and supply fund is underway and there will be more and more activity to report as events move ahead in the Philippines.
One things for sure. We will not be playing it safe and will not ever suggest that your "brownie pin" or sticker is worth anything without deeds to back it up.
AMDA is not comprised of perfect members and has no pretense of claiming that. I see it more like alcoholics anonymous where "all we sinners" are uniting to try to make more ethical and sustainable what we do for a living...thats all.
Sincerely, Steve

 

[Anonymous]

...That was in the old days. We have already sent back checks from outfits that do not meet the criteria of an AMDA marinelife dealer. Dropshippers and outfits that do not even come face to face with the public have had their checks returned. The backbone of AMDA is the brick and mortar retailer with rent, electricity, payroll, insurance and taxes to pay. This new defense of bonafide dealers is simply our way of telling those who undercut them and leech off the economy of scale provided by them...that they no longer fit our criteria. Gone are the days of rolling over for anyone with $50.to buy a sticker.

How will exclusionary tactics benefit the group? What is with this phobia of the non-brick-and-mortars? I know that the new e-commerce sites are the primary competition to the traditional LFS, but why exclude them? I know It is you'alls group and you can vote in who you want, but excluding large groups simply by class seems self-defeating to industry reform. I noticed that perhaps the largest e-commerce pet site is listed as a member of AMDA. Are they not going to be allowed to renew? How would excluding them benefit AMDA?

BTW, the requirements to join AMDA are listed as follows.

Standard Membership dues are $50 per year; voting membership is open only to businesses that derive a significant portion of their revenues from collecting, propagating, selling (wholesale or retail) or maintaining live marine animals and plants, or to individuals seriously planning to open such a business.

I know a few garage outfits that are highly ethical and very helpful to hobbyists, some only sell captive propagated frags. for instance. If they fit the above statement and follow the AMDA code of ethics why exclude them. The more people we get on the reform bandwagon the better, no?

I'm not trying to blast anyone, I'm just curious about this.

Sincerely,
-Lee

 

[Anonymous]

How about starting the application of pressure to retail stores that use marine tanks as decoration? Some of these stores kill more livestock in a month than an average hobbyist will in a reefkeeping career.

How about the Red Lobster chain? Not to single them out, but they are a national chain that uses marine ornamentals as decoration in most of their stores. If they purchased livestock only from carefully reseached retailers that practice high ethical/ecological standards it would large move in the right direction.

-Lee

 

[clarionreef]

Sci guy,
I was at a reptile show this weekend and had a look into the future of the marine aquarium trade.
Some 'Low ball', reptile killing, turn em and burn em e tailers were there just having a fenzied flea market style weekend. Their stuff was easily 25-40% cheaper then the breeders and care and service oriented establishment. A lady bought a cheap blue tail skink squashed into a plastic cup for $90. and then went directly over to the poor 'care and service' store who had superior ones in a 40 gallon set up with the books, care sheets and a very reptile oriented approach. His were $120. ea.
She then picked his brain for 20 minutes of information and bought absolutely nothing from him, including the Skink care book he tried to sell her.
The skink will probably be dead soon but hey, she 'saved' 30 bucks!
The saltwater trade is drifting swiftly into these waters already and quite obviously the distribution of more and more of the industrys livestock thru 'turn em and burn em' computer jockeys with a remote wharehouse is an ominous trend.
Calls to reform, implement the MAC protocols, establish more justice to the divers, produce better quality, net caught fish all the way is not going to happen if the trade loses its mind to the flea market, buying club mentality. We're talking about more intelligence and responsibility in the process, not less.
Why should anyone invest in solving field problems if the internet vultures, who create nothing just to swoop in later and pick off all the easy customers??
I fail to see how stabbing the retailers that brought you into this hobby in the back is going to better reform the trade. Obviously the undercutting and lowballing of their primary product is going to harm them severely.
Support them? Take their money? Include them in the brotherhood of people who actually work for a living and fight for reform on the front lines?
Sell out? Sell out you suggest? We are in the very process of doing exactly the opposite!
The new American Marinelife Dealers Assn. is exactly that...it does not represent very well those who are not real dealers. If they want to become such...they could invest their lifes work and savings and join us!
Sincerely, Steve Amda Pres.




PS. Frags in the mail??? My local GIRL SCOUT troop could do that! Packing and shipping cheap frags in the mail is not what we're talking about here and is a poor example to juxtapose to the thousands of boxes of marinelife that needs to get distributed to the public weekly thru your industries real chain of custody.

 

[clarionreef]

Yes,
And many others.
Steve

 

[flameangel1]

She then picked his brain for 20 minutes of information and bought absolutely nothing from him, including the Skink care book he tried to sell her.

I sure know this one well !!!! Happens to all of us "real" retailers.

Frags in the mail??? My local GIRL SCOUT troop could do that! Packing and shipping cheap frags in the mail is not what we're talking about here

Agreed , Steve.
Those cheap frag people come in my shop also, and brag about how much money they make and they dont have to have my overhead or long hours open to the public etc. It really burns me when they do that also.
I am suppose to stay polite and friendly, even when they tell my regulars about how much money they could save by buying those frags from them, instead of paying my prices. in MY shop !!!
I am sure others have seen this happen also.

 

[Anonymous]

...excluding large groups simply by class seems self-defeating to industry reform....

I know a few garage outfits that are highly ethical and very helpful to hobbyists, some only sell captive propagated frags., for instance. If they fit the above statement and follow the AMDA code of ethics why exclude them. The more people we get on the reform bandwagon the better, no?

Steve,

You have totally missed the context of my message. The flea shop pet people were NOT who I was talking about. Your arguement about the reptiles is totally not applicable; I even doubt that most of the flea sale pet people have ever heard of AMDA. I totally understand AMDA not wanting them in their group.

I'm talking about non-brick-and-mortars that are ethical and otherwise follow most of the AMDA recommended best practices. For instance, I know an online garage vendor that only sells frags and captive raised or net caught fish. Why should they be excluded from AMDA?

You frequently tell me that I do not understand the retail side of the "industry equation". No doubt that is true and I appreciate hearing the "other side of the story". However, in this instance you are profoundly missing the hobbyist side of the equation. The "industry" as it relates to the reef hobbyist definitely includes those "girl scouts" selling frags (why insult them by calling them girl scouts?). Maybe they are not the types that AMDA is interested in, but many are profoundly ethical and might be a great additon to your fine group.

I know that the "industry" to you is just fish. But it isn't just fish to a lot of us reading this forum.

-Lee

 

[Anonymous]

Those cheap frag people come in my shop also, and brag about how much money they make and they dont have to have my overhead or long hours open to the public etc. It really burns me when they do that also.
I am suppose to stay polite and friendly, even when they tell my regulars about how much money they could save by buying those frags from them, instead of paying my prices. in MY shop !!!
I am sure others have seen this happen also.

Flameangel,

I sympathise with you on this. So ask those people to stop doing that or ask them to leave. Tell the regulars the advantages of being able to see the livestock prior to purchase, etc.

We have a LFS that begrudges our local club because one of our members said $5 was too much to pay for a blue leg hermit to another customer in her shop. We specifically asked our members to not to do things like that, but they were correct in their statement. The price was way out of line for the local market. This particular LFS also dislikes our club because we sometimes trade frags.

Do most LSF owners hate local clubs for trading frags?

-Lee

 

[flameangel1]

I have NOTHING against trading frags between friends or club members.
But, standing in my shop and trying to trade with my customers , is NOT right !!!!! If my frags are $6.95 and 2 inches tall and theirs are $2.00 and 2 inch tall, it still is not right !!!!
I pay the bills here and provide 24 hour support LONG TERM,--if they wish to invest the same time and money and care as I do- then they will have their OWN shop to sell in.

I can not compete with some guy in a garage with a computer, who sells cheap. For one thing, he pays residential rates for electricity, while I have to pay commercial "demand" rates, which are DOUBLE.
Just one small example. And there are MANY more also.

 

[logicalreef]

Aww Sciguy, didn't you know...brick and mortar means you are a better person and actually work for a living :roll:

Believe it or not, many people cannot get to an LFS. And here is another shocker, they are becoming educated enough not to keep getting bent over by the crappy LFS's we ALL can read about every single day.

I can't think of those members names here that are LFS owners (the GA couple - and a few others))...but if you could bottle their hearts and send to all the LFS's around the country, what a great thing that would be.

Then I could stop this 20 hours a day of not working and go back to my cubicle and maybe be able to see my wife and family for a day.

But, it seems bashing is in fashion lately. I've lurked here a ton, time I should be with my daughter, trying to learn who is really saying what they mean. Then I caught on that those that say less are actually doing more. It's crazy.

Seems no one here is big enough to acknowledge what the internet has done for the awareness of this hobby.

Peace, Bryan

 

[clarionreef]

Thank you Judy,
... for showing how the reptile analogy does count. It happens a thousand times a day and just goes to show how the easy stuff like fragging corals will be picked off first and denied the retailer. The retailer is there of course for the stuff thats hard to do and to tell people how the things work that they got cheaper on the net. Disease control and live foods are other things that retailers are there for ya for. Working with new aquarists and taking them thru the steps to success are the thankless tasks we take them for granted on, but shouldn't.
If storefront retailers go...the industry collapses.
If e-tailers go...nothing happens...nothing at all. [ That means they are not important to the survival of any but themseves..]
Without E-tailers, retailers get stronger and the chain of custody and certification process envisioned by MAC and AMDA is worked on to improve itself.. RESPONSIBILITY AND ACCOUNTABILITY ARE
TARGETED. AMDA doesn't want them and MAC doesn't certify them.

Cyanide fishing zeros in on coral, critical coral; habitat. Stopping cyanide fishing saves more coral then you all can frag in a lifetime. Making the international wild caught trade sustainable is the point here.
A side-offshoot industry of growing/selling frags has occurred. Fine, but that is a domestic industry by and large now and not one in desperate need of reform! Why water down our message and focus to point out that there is more to the industry than fish and the corals they live in?
The critical problems tend to be the focus of reform, not the stuff that needs not tending to.
Frag an inch or three of coral by all means but lets not lose the reef IN THE MEANWHILE. People who love coral enough to reproduce it in captivity surely love it enough to want to save it.
Sincerely, Steve

PS. Girl scouts often get together and do projects. Sitting down and "fragging coral" is a bit like that. Any and all can do it and its fun.
There was no slight against the girl scouts made as you very well know.

 

[Anonymous]

logical,

Thanks for posting. This is a lonely place for people that ask questions about the establishment.

For the record I've learned more quality information from the internet recently than anywhere else. I especially respect the "garage vendors" that specialize in one particular type of livestock; they often really know their stuff. These bulletin boards really weed out the bad online vendors. The winnowing process is much more stringent on the online vendors than the traditionals LFSs.

Now to get everyone's goat - nearly every bad livestock purchase I've made in this hobby has been spurred on by an uniformed LFS employee that told me I was making a good decision.

Here's a flame retardent union suit. You'll need it here. I'm putting mine on right now.

-Lee

 

[flameangel1]

Just a note here,
with so few net caught fish available , so few tank raised fish available and the price of importing wild corals (yes, as more of the reef gets killed, less are available and the price goes UP ),
I could not have stayed in business, if I did not propagate corals.
Those frags are the difference between staying and not staying in business and I assume it is that way for others also.
The tanks must be full and look good at all times, when one is a brick and morter business ,or ones clientele will think they are dealing with left overs or a less than successful business.

 

[Anonymous]

Here's an idea. Every AMDA sticker comes with a registration number. Customers and hobbyists can use that number to report those stores to the AMDA. Kind of like the Better Business Bureau. Not that there have to be harsh penalties, but those stores that get reported most often lose their sticker.

 

[Anonymous]

Every time I make a descenting point of view statement I'm either accused of not caring about the environment/true reform or accused of watering down the message.

Within the context of this topic thread I have done neither.

But then again, unless the voice of radicalism is moderated it will seldom reach anyone other than an already entrenched radical audience.

 

[clarionreef]

OK
We gots ta have a thread change. There are too many subjects woven into this one.
The new thread can be called...
"The superiority of frag traders to the establishment types...
[ establishment types? Never been called that before!]
Then if anyone wants to compare their worst stories about some bad retailers to impress the girls they can go ahead...on this different thread.
Grow frags people. Frag like the wind and Godspeed. But do not substitute the need to save coral reefs thru reforming an irresponsible industry with your particular sideline!
YES ITS IN THE AQUARIUM TRADE but its domesticity makes it an aquaculture issue and not the wildcaught one that is in trouble.
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

Here's an idea. Every AMDA sticker comes with a registration number. Customers and hobbyists can use that number to report those stores to the AMDA. Kind of like the Better Business Bureau. Not that there have to be harsh penalties, but those stores that get reported most often lose their sticker.

I've only gotten well qualified, excellent service and advice from the AMDA member store that I used to frequent. I wish I had one close to where I live now.

My solution? I've asked the best LFS in my area to place an order to ORA for me in the near future. They will get their commission and I will get cyanide free/ethical livestock.

 

[flameangel1]

SciGuy2,
just a note here-- you said you have learned a lot from the internet--did you learn about the cyanide issue here also ???
How many years ago did you learn about it from the internet???
I knew about it and educated people about it, 14 years ago and didnt get a computer until 4 years ago !!! (we did have telephones and books and mentors back then-lol )

Also, I dont think anyone would like a whole tank full of the same kind of coral, and as a LFS, we do have a variety available for everyone to SEE and choose from. One can also see the care and condition of the tanks-animals and general cleanliness etc in a LFS versus a pretty picture on the internet.
As Steve said, we are the backbone of this hobby.