Where should we apply pressure?

[JennM]

The issue keeps coming up about increased costs for clean fish. I am just not seeing that.

I'm not buying "certified" fish - I am buying fish from what I consider to be "clean" collectors and importers. The fish don't cost me any more on average than from the other wholesalers. Yeah, once in a while I pay more for a given specimen(s) but on average, I don't really think I'm spending any more on livestock now than I was before, when the wool was being pulled over my eyes.

In fact, with so much less DOA/DAA, I'm probably spending LESS in the long run because less of my hard-earned money ends up in the trash can.

I'm with Judy about educating clients - if they don't care, I don't sell to them. The only qualifyer I'll add to that is that I do maintain some tanks for some "tank owners" who are very hands-off - but I take it upon myself to select appropriate specimens for them, and see to their needs.

I'd love to see pressure on the big wholesalers too but IMO THAT is where the "money factor" comes into play. Currently there aren't enough net caught fish to supply them all, so if they all woke up today and decided to go with net-caught only, there would be a HUGE shortage, and a price hike, and some might not survive this, as would some retailers not survive this. And if even ONE biggie didn't join in, he could undersell everybody else and the problem would perpetuate.

It has to start with the collectors. If we get cyanide out of the equasion, that problem is then dealt with. There are plenty of other issues to manage once we have that in hand, but it MUST start with the collectors.

Just like with fish-keeping - if one doesn't start with pristine water, nothing else matters. If we don't start with all clean fish, nothing else matters.

Jenn

 

[clarionreef]

Jenn,
That burst of clarity can only mean one thing. They accidently gave you the wrong color pill. Quick, get to a phone before they send you back to the Matrix!
Steve

 

[clarionreef]

Seriously Jenn,
Clean fish don't cost more or much more but the perception as you have pointed out is just the opposite. In fact, the perception is that the fish cost so much more that the buzzword "netcaught" has become a handicap and an impediment to making sales to all but a few retailers
They don't want to be reminded about that vacuum belly baby clown trigger in their tank and they don't want a lecture. They've got their own problems, their own bills to worry about and do not need to try and 'save the world' today.
I've had a slow week. Today is the last day to make sales. My pitch will not include the words netcaught anywhere. This is simply because I really need to sell some fish today and not make a point to a minority thats not on the customer list.
"Value added" because its netcaught? In my philosophy...yes. In the pursuit of sales? No. In the customers mind...no. Only non commercial marinelife dealers believe that...or people paid to believe that.
Value added if its comparitively priced, good quality and the right species that gives the retailer his triple? Yes.
Instead of dictating reality to customers I have learned to listen to them...and watch them. My do they mark everything on that sales page!
Doing the right thing in wholesale may well be a fools game.
Reform of the trade must not be a market vote...because if it is, we're doomed. It must be fishery policy in the country of origin and not "A CHOICE".

Imagine it this way. Imagine if we were wiping out our abalone here in Northern California and something needed to be done. What if our gameplan was to try and educate the Asian markets of abalone to stop the purchase of said abalone to allow our stocks to recover?
There is nothing I can imagine that would be more ineffective and futile. The buying public of abalone in Korea or Japan would snap up the last one without hesitation.
The answer, and the only answer to keeping abalone around in the next century is in the hands of the California Department of Fish and Game.... Pure and simple.
And so it is with Asian resources coveted by Western market interests. We will snap up the last clown trigger without hesitation w/ scant regard to how it was caught.
Its just an empiracle observation, thats all.
Sincerely, Steve

 

[kylen]

Steve,

I agree with the point that this is a fishery management issue where those policies must be put in place by the country of origin.

To be devil's advocate...market pressure was used successfully to change our logging practices here in BC. When our forestry companies began losing customers in Europe as a result of negative campaigns tageting public awareness of those practices, they changed their ways rather quickly. With much public debate, which is still ongoing today, the government has changed forestry policies. Old growth forest...coral reefs...very similar.

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Mike,

Manufacturers of aquaria and aquarium products could be a good target. They do make good money without taking any chances with live stock.

Jaime

 

[clarionreef]

Kylen
But the loggers and the public were in the same place. The damage was apparent, local and Canadian.
If the logging damage was in Indonesia , the Canadian public would not have applied the pressure they did.
Its an out of sight, out of mind thing.
Steve

 

[spawner]

Steve,

I completely agree you and everyone else that changes must come from the source. However, when the question is asked, were should we apply the pressure? I must argue that it must be applied from all directions. I have never seen a targeted PR or information campaign directed to the truly beginning hobbyist. These would be the ones that have not read any books with a few pages on cyanide fishing, are not aware of the problems. This is why I suggest and have suggested that manufactures of basic equipment such as salt. Everyone (well almost) that has a saltwater aquarium must purchase salt. If every bag of salt had a big very attractive message on it stating the problem, along with a pamphlet inside giving more detail including website for yet even more information the hobbyist would be better informed. While people and groups have made a long effort to educate the hobby about the problem, they must look to find it. I am saying take the nets and train the collectors but at the same time, take the message, for the first time to every hobbyist, on every box of filters and bags of salt, don't make them search for it, have it jump out at them.

When I started keeping tanks I never heard of the problem until I began working in a store and reading. I like many relied (wrongly) at first on my LFS solely for information. The truth is that most hobbyists get their information this way. Chances are that if I went for an extended period of time without hearing about it the majority of hobbyists, those that are not informed or do not search information out are not aware.

I am betting if you polled regular hobbyist, that most of them have no idea what is going on. That is a huge problem. When they walk into a shop such as those own by the members that have posted here, they will get educated; I tried to educate people when I was working at a store. What happens when they walk into a store that only cares about making money, they aren't going to hear about it.

andy

 

[clarionreef]

Right, the point is an excellent one!
We, who were informed once a month on these things in FAMA back in the day, perhaps take for granted that the issues are better understood. They obviously are not. The internet as a medium of public information only adresses the choir that seeks it and clicks onto this forum.
If manufacturers of salt will promote the new institutional push now getting off the ground by AMDA,[ the dealers who sell it face to face to the hobbyists in the first place] then the word could get out in a general fashion and everywhere.
We have already planned to approach the trades manufacturing base in a big way but the lack of enough good netcaught fish to point to makes us hesitate. What do you support on this? Changes that can go forth now... or the MAC 10 years plan? The damage done to critical aquarium fish habitat in the next ten years makes this kind of approach unacceptable. We need solutions to meet the problem, not solutions that just fit the pace of a 'very slow NGO.' The trades marinelife dealers need netcaught fish to go with the promotion and that is the point of more serious, "stepped up" trainings this very year.
I'll take these notions to the next board meetings.
Thank you and keep thinking clearly,
Steve

 

[Kalkbreath]

Steve,

I completely agree you and everyone else that changes must come from the source. However, when the question is asked, were should we apply the pressure? I must argue that it must be applied from all directions. I have never seen a targeted PR or information campaign directed to the truly beginning hobbyist. These would be the ones that have not read any books with a few pages on cyanide fishing, are not aware of the problems. This is why I suggest and have suggested that manufactures of basic equipment such as salt. Everyone (well almost) that has a saltwater aquarium must purchase salt. If every bag of salt had a big very attractive message on it stating the problem, along with a pamphlet inside giving more detail including website for yet even more information the hobbyist would be better informed. While people and groups have made a long effort to educate the hobby about the problem, they must look to find it. I am saying take the nets and train the collectors but at the same time, take the message, for the first time to every hobbyist, on every box of filters and bags of salt, don't make them search for it, have it jump out at them.

When I started keeping tanks I never heard of the problem until I began working in a store and reading. I like many relied (wrongly) at first on my LFS solely for information. The truth is that most hobbyists get their information this way. Chances are that if I went for an extended period of time without hearing about it the majority of hobbyists, those that are not informed or do not search information out are not aware.

I am betting if you polled regular hobbyist, that most of them have no idea what is going on. That is a huge problem. When they walk into a shop such as those own by the members that have posted here, they will get educated; I tried to educate people when I was working at a store. What happens when they walk into a store that only cares about making money, they aren't going to hear about it.

andy

Ok...IM going to pole you............What IS going on? How do even you {the messenger} know whats what? Name me the countries in which most of the collected fish are collected with cyanide? then name me the ten other countries which very few or no fish are collected with cyanide? I have asked for years for someone {anyone} to show me evidence of current cyanide use by our hobby.........and they cant even provide photos of current food fish distruction, which is fifty times greater? If every potential new hobbyists is told that all un certified fish are collected with reef killing poison.........How many new hobbyists do you really think there will be?........If i walk in to a restaurant, and the first thing I hear is that most of the seafood served is collected with cyanide..........do you really think Im going to want to eat seafood?

 

[spawner]

Maybe my brain is not wired up right, but I have always believed in a market economy that if you create a demand for something, someone will come along with the product. Also if you have a product you must create a demand for it.

Your right, changes much be made today, but if you went ahead with the PR and information push at the same time regardless of enough clean fish from the problem areas, then a few things might happen. The increase demand for the clean product might produce it; you might have more exports asking for more clean fish. And there would be AMDA and others with their net caught programs ready to train. Of course not everyone will read the messages (some won't care), but hey if 10% did and asked for a better product, that would help. I just think that you need create a strong demand for your product as well as a supply. The worst thing that could happen is that prices on your clean fish go up because of limited supply. It’s just like captive raised species, limited supply = higher prices, but people don’t have trouble selling them.

andy

 

[clarionreef]

Brain teaser isn't it?
Build support for reforming the trade but not enunciating, exposing and damning the trade for current practices.
But if you don't prove the case, you don't generate support. If you prove it to well, you turn people off.
If you don't demonstrate the need for training, you don't generate support. If you show too well the failings of past net-free trainings, you turn people off.
If you point out the fact that most damage to reefs is caused by the food fish trade you risk reducing cause for our trade to be and feel responsible. If you demonstrate how our trade zeros in on critical habitat for aquarium fish and destroys the most important niches for its targeted species you risk bad press for us.
If we consumed dynamited or poisoned food fish as a people, we would be much more culpable for the damage caused by that. But we don't eat dynamite fish or cyanide caught napoleon wrasses, we consume aquarium fish. For the impacts caused by that, we are responsible.
We need to clean up our act before having the right to blame evryone else. This, we are barely beginning to do.
Steve

 

[Nancy Swart]

We need to clean up our act before having the right to blame evryone else. This, we are barely beginning to do.

Every journey begins with the first step, Steve. I strongly feel we're finally going to make some progress.

As to informing the masses, rather than ask manufacturers to place an insert in their product, have you considered asking companies like IceCap, Premium Aquatics, Champion, etc., to drop a flyer in every order that ships? This could go a long way to BEGIN the process of educating the hobbyists and would be easier to implement.

NS

 

[kylen]

Steve,

No, with respect to forestry and market forces, the consumer and the logger were not in the same place. The consumer was thousands of miles away in Europe, out of sight out of mind. That attitude still exists in Canada today. The pressure and awareness campaign was done by many NGO's including Greenpeace. They were preaching a boycot of our forest products that were coming from old growth or cleacut forests.

When the forest companies began losing business as a result, they had to change as did the government's management policies, which are still a matter of public debate. What we heard from the companies and stakeholders in the industry was that this was not fair to air it's dirty laundry as the poor forestry workers are going to lose their livelihoods.

It seems, IMO, that you can substitute the aquarium trade quite easily in this situation. Some people have preached an outright ban on PI or Indo fish, but is this the solution...no. It also seems that many others are desparate to have this industry' dirty laundry kept a big secret too. Market forces will assist in change. After all, the almighty dollar speaks loud and clear.

Having the manufacturers put inserts in their products to raise awareness is an excellent idea. After all, the majority of LFS are not AMDA members.

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Hi all,

I have a couple of questions.

How many stores dealing with marine ornamentals are in the states? How many of them are AMDA members? What is the percentage of net caught fish coming to North America?

Thanks in advance

Jaime

 

[flameangel1]

Jaime Baquero,
As to your question above,
There are some of us who are very outspoken on these issues and are very concerned about them, but, who are either no longer members of AMDA or never were members.
As AMDA will accept anyone with $50.00 to send them, you really can not go by that criteria as to how many stores/dealers are concerned with net caught, clean fish.
From past experience with AMDA, I can tell you that very few of the members knew or cared about the isssue and were only concerned with the "name" as a sales incentive..

 

[clarionreef]

Judy,
That was in the old days. We have already sent back checks from outfits that do not meet the criteria of an AMDA marinelife dealer.
Dropshippers and outfits that do not even come face to face with the public have had their checks returned. The backbone of AMDA is the brick and mortar retailer with rent, electricity, payroll, insurance and taxes to pay. This new defense of bonafide dealers is simply our way of telling those who undercut them and leech off the economy of scale provided by them...that they no longer fit our criteria.
Gone are the days of rolling over for anyone with $50.to buy a sticker.
With that in mind...our new "net supply and training support fund" and activist approach to field reform will also upset some people who like their AMDA to be an impotent, docile rubber stamp for the status quo and business as usual.
The new board is as progessive as yourself Judy. You should consider joining and seeing for yourself!
Sincerely, Steve Robinson
AMDA pres

 

[flameangel1]

Steve,,
Good to hear that !!!! Was one of my very pet peeves that just anyone could say they were an AMDA member. Couldnt be proud of being one , when so many were a mockery to our cause !!!!!
Now if you were going to STAY the president, might even think about coming back as a member, but who knows if the next one would be like the last few before you !!!!!
By the way, I own the property and dont pay rent.
But sure do pay all the rest of those things-LOL !!!

 

[Anonymous]

Judy,
That was in the old days. We have already sent back checks from outfits that do not meet the criteria of an AMDA marinelife dealer.
Dropshippers and outfits that do not even come face to face with the public have had their checks returned. The backbone of AMDA is the brick and mortar retailer with rent, electricity, payroll, insurance and taxes to pay. This new defense of bonafide dealers is simply our way of telling those who undercut them and leech off the economy of scale provided by them...that they no longer fit our criteria.
Gone are the days of rolling over for anyone with $50.to buy a sticker.
With that in mind...our new "net supply and training support fund" and activist approach to field reform will also upset some people who like their AMDA to be an impotent, docile rubber stamp for the status quo and business as usual.
The new board is as progessive as yourself Judy. You should consider joining and seeing for yourself!
Sincerely, Steve Robinson
AMDA pres

steve:

what, exactly, are the lfs criteria, and how do you make sure the stores meet them?

i ask as someone who's considering gettin his boss to either sign up, or use my own cash to do it- but i'm a natural skeptic at heart

 

[clarionreef]

Well,
The new by laws determine an eligible candidate for membership to be a commercial outfit that tanks fish and deals with customers face to face.
Drop-shippers and garage operations who deal only thru the net are not eligible and will have their money returned.
We defend the interests of marinelife dealers who are in the front lines of educating the public, working wirth them, giving them direct advice, conditioning fish and getting wet for a living.
The purely online entities who see niether fish nor customers are simply not welcome. Perhaps the trends worldwide are to minimize the human element and cash in thru the internet...but they are not what AMDA is for. Supporting the trends that ruin real storefront retailers is simply not our mission.
If the AMDA sticker is ever to stand for anything, it must first stand for the defense of all the frontline hardworking dealers whos businesses are undercut and damaged by the opportunists, lowballers and fly by nighters invading the trade. Of course we'll never keep out all the flies, but we don't have to leave the door open.
Sincerely, Steve Robinson, AMDA pres

 

[flameangel1]

Steve,,

If the AMDA sticker is ever to stand for anything, it must first stand for the defense of all the frontline hardworking dealers whos businesses are undercut and damaged by the opportunists, lowballers and fly by nighters invading the trade.

About time AMDA stood up for the real marine dealers in this industry !!!!!!!!
And for the animals/reefs/fisherfolk that make this all possible.

Too many years of being the "status quo", run by "hose suckers" who still believe in undergravel filters, left many of us very dissalusioned !!!!
Sincerely hope you and the current Bod have turned it around enough so that it does not go back to what it had been turned into. Some of us fought tooth and nail to make AMDA be something meaningful before, but we were ordered to shut up . Nothing good ever happens by remaining silent, IMO !!