• Why not take a moment to introduce yourself to our members?

kylen

Experienced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Every time a suggestion is made with respect to a reform initiative or NGO, that evil word keeps popping up...money (or specifically funding). Most people have read of the netting funds, training funds, MAC funds, CDT costs, in recent posts.

One thing is quite clear, reform costs a lot of money. Without funding all these initiatives would die. Take CORL for example, having to possibly shut down their US office due to funding shortages in order to keep field work alive (correct me if I'm wrong on that). MAC, yes MAC, has to keep looking for money to stay alive, good or bad.

The question then becomes, how should the money be raised to pay for reform? Who should pay...industry...hobbyist? Another could be, how to effectively direct the money so the most needed areas (e.g. netting, training, CDT) get the money. Should all the money be split among the countless number of organizations or companies that are doing the right thing, thus creating an atmosphere of competition for the dollars?

How about an eco-tax? I'm Canadian and we love taxes. I get eco-taxed on any tire, paint, car battery, etc that I buy. This money, apparantly, goes toward the funding of proper disposal of these used products. Should this be a surcharge at origin (the Philippines) based on boxes exported or value of a shipment? Should it be collected on import or at retail level?

Just some food for thought. Any ideas, comments, or suggestions direct them someone else. :D
 

JennM

Advanced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
kylen":alx4ppep said:
How about an eco-tax? I'm Canadian and we love taxes. I get eco-taxed on any tire, paint, car battery, etc that I buy. This money, apparantly, goes toward the funding of proper disposal of these used products. Should this be a surcharge at origin (the Philippines) based on boxes exported or value of a shipment? Should it be collected on import or at retail level?

Just some food for thought. Any ideas, comments, or suggestions direct them someone else. :D


Ah a TAX - You said it - Canadians love taxes! This Canadian is soooooooooo happy to be rid of the GST, and the income tax here is so easy to live with, and we've already got a cheque back from Mr. Bush, and another one is coming........ God Bless America!

Seriously though, the COST to administer a tax is what makes taxes so expensive...

The thought of yet another NGO in the mix just makes my stomach churn....

Why do we keep needing to put together these feel-good organizations to do anything?

Jenn
 

John_Brandt

Experienced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
'Feel good' isn't a necessity, but organizations are. The task of getting Filipino fisherfolk to stop using cyanide and other destructive collecting methods permanently, almost certainly requires multiple organizations. Some of those NGOs are going to be Philippine. And there are going to be some people in those organizations who wear nice clothing to work, that doesn't get dirty.

The NETS & TRAINING - NETS & TRAINING - NETS & TRAINING mantra we keep getting in here (and on RC) completely ignores the 95% of the other things that need to be enacted to keep fishers permanently off of cyanide.

We need to ask serious questions about what happens when the Ferdinand/Robinson team goes tear-ass through those villages training and handing out nets like candy. What do they say, "Sorry we can't stick around, we have 739 more guys to train. Gotta run!"

Be worried. Very worried.
 

JennM

Advanced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
John_Brandt":1n67j1fy said:
We need to ask serious questions about what happens when the Ferdinand/Robinson team goes tear-ass through those villages training and handing out nets like candy. What do they say, "Sorry we can't stick around, we have 739 more guys to train. Gotta run!"

Be worried. Very worried.

Well, now that's not very positive or constructive :roll:

Jenn
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Revisiting an old point: IMA literature indicated that there was a significant rate of collectors backsliding back into cyanide use after net training.

I don't know how much of the backsliding was due to a lack of available netting material, however.

John makes a very valid point although it isn't a very Polly Anna one.

To really cause long term change in capture practices it appears that it takes 1) training, 2) material support (netting), and 3) a lot of hand holding to keep people from backsliding. The MSI and AMDA projects do a good job of initially addressing the first two points, but someone must address the last point.

Any suggestions on who should do the hand holding? Can CORL do the hand holding to assure the long term success of the Ferdinand Cruz and AMDA training projects?

-Lee
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
John_Brandt":wwivat6h said:
Be worried. Very worried.

Afraid the "Polly Anna Police" didn't like that statment. You must roll the six sided die.

Also, it is believed that this is a quote from someone else's post. The other person will be forced to roll the "die of discipline" as soon as they are apprehended.


-Lee
Deputy, Polly Anna Police
 

clarionreef

Advanced Reefer
Location
San Francisco
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
John,
The "tear ass approach?" Flinging netting bundles like candy off a moving vehicle?
Never tried that one.
Actually its the "slow ass, village approach" w/ net making and dissemination embedded in the cirriculum. The divers would be trained WITH nets and actually have them BEFORE graduation.
Handing out some nets rushed over for the occasion AFTER training was the MAC methodology if I remember correctly. Oh yes, I have the DHL reciept right here.
Comon John. We need some friendly competition working on the same thing. Or are you afraid of the guaranteed success made possible by what a superior and competent team can do?
Steve
PS Or, you can convince MAC to subcontract us to do the job...freeing them up for the certification mission.
 

jamesw

Advanced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
There is only so much funding to go around and the more organizations there are "vying" for it, the more mudslinging and in-fighting we will see.

That's the way it works w/ NGO's, academia, grants, etc. "We must have more funding!" Well it academia, it's "We must have less people with PHD's"

That's my 2 cents. Instead of more NGO's we need less that can do more.

Cheers
James
 

John_Brandt

Experienced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
JennM":6j1osmfv said:
John_Brandt":6j1osmfv said:
We need to ask serious questions about what happens when the Ferdinand/Robinson team goes tear-ass through those villages training and handing out nets like candy. What do they say, "Sorry we can't stick around, we have 739 more guys to train. Gotta run!"

Be worried. Very worried.

Well, now that's not very positive or constructive :roll:

Jenn

Then let me go on....

The NETS & TRAINING road show in the Philippines needs to have a NGO exactly like MAC to maintain the new way of life by way of continual social interaction with the villages and the reformers and the whole bigger picture. People to people, holding their hands, soothing their pains and making it all work. This, ladies and gentlemen, is the real missing component in the Philippines. Netting has always been something you could just order on the phone or by mail.

Meet Monica Piquero. She is the MAC Visayas Community Coordinator. She is a trained social developer. Her daily job is to visit the villages and make sure everything is working smoothly. She is a salaried MAC staffer, and no her clothes don't get very dirty.

Will the new net training initiatives employ Monicas? Nobody is asking them, and we haven't seen the line items in the ghost $60,000 budget. Maybe Ferdie and Steve don't think Monicas are important. Their fan club doesn't seem to know, ask, or possibly care.

Not to be too negative, I'll offer constructive criticism. Wherever all of these Internet-derived funds go to I hope you put lots of Monicas on the salary. Nets and training ain't nearly enough to get the good job done.

P2190986a.jpg
 

MaryHM

Advanced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
If the netting material situation is so easy as ordering by phone or mail, then why is the Philippines in such desparate need of it? Why do I have to raise $4000 to get some over there?? I agree, there are 3 components. Training, nets, and temporary supervision until everything has clicked into place and is running smoothly. To harp on the new programs about whether or not they have the supervision part is quite humorous, given that MAC has neither the training part or the net part anymore. What's the saying "Don't worry about the splinter in your friend's eye when there's a log in yours"? Here's one thing I know for sure. It is possible to derive net caught fish solely from trainings and nets. It is not possible to derive net caught fish from trainings and supervison or nets and supervision. I know that Ferdie visits the villages he has trained quite often (which is why I can never get ahold of him). By hooking up these collectors with exporters who are willing to pay more and not be such hard a$$es when it comes to fish selection, he is offering them an incentive to stay clean.

And James, I agree. Less NGO's that do more is key here. Fifteen NGOs running around grabbing for limited funding and spending all of their time and energy doing that have got to go.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
kylen":3eowky2k said:
One thing is quite clear, reform costs a lot of money. Without funding all these initiatives would die. Take CORL for example, having to possibly shut down their US office due to funding shortages in order to keep field work alive (correct me if I'm wrong on that). MAC, yes MAC, has to keep looking for money to stay alive, good or bad.

If I recollect correctly, last word on CORL was that they ARE shutting down the U.S. branch, and centralizing in American Samoa where Mr. King is currently living.
 

clarionreef

Advanced Reefer
Location
San Francisco
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Hello all,
If just funding was the issue, then this thing would already have been solved 10 times over. That much has already been spent on the issue to the applause and acclaim of those who...well spent it.
Clearly the composition and quality of the training team can make or break the program, regardless of its level of funding. Exciting results can be produced on 10 K, 60 k OR half a million, depending on the team.
AMDA has a concept and a good intention to help raise some money to support, ignite and initiate some real trainings to prove what is actually possible. With this more modest approach and beginning, A great deal more could be built up on ONCE PROVEN ON TAPE WHAT IT CAN REALLY BE LIKE.
If MAC has a constructive input in it, then they have more say so over how it is run. If they do not, then they are in no position to drive from the "MAC-seat" .
After approving of the concept of a MAC-CORL collaboration in December, the leadership of the two groups have drifted apart. If then we may deduce that MAC is no longer interested in having the benefit of participating with the CORL team then it is also logical that CORL must move on.
AMDA hopes that CORL is not so disappointed with the failed dalliance with MAC on this that they withdraw from the process. If they do, then we need to regroup and come up with plan C.
Every little detail of this evolving situation cannot be put under a microscope every day for the benefit of everyone who has two cents worth of advice to offer. Transparency and honest accountability are not themselves a training program. They are simply a 'given' in its promulgation. The worth of the program is in its implementation and in the degree that it converts villages to sustainable practices.
I must be frank with you. I have wanted to get back in the water and train on the East side of the Philippines for a long time. I have unfinished business with some clown triggerfish communities that have lost so many divers to this trade. I hope to train for safe diving, handling and net collecting and and work towards cooperative organization and capacity building there.
But the $11.99 clown trigger situation suggests that there will not be a better deal/incentive for the divers at all. The direct mail, slaughterhouse market forces at work may overwhelm and negate all good intentions and the push for a better deal for the divers. Divers who die in the service of shoddy, fly by nite U.S. dealers who lowball the life out of everything they touch.
If MAC ever bestows certification on the mega trade in e-tail certified fish, then there will be little worth risking ones life over in this thing anymore.
I've been Frank with you. Now I'll be Steve again.
Steve
 

jamesw

Advanced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Steve,

Could you please explain why the MAC-CORL net-training "drifted apart?" I was very excited to hear that they were going to work together (yourself included) to do training.

So what happened?

Second question, is CORL a "we" a "they" or a "him?" I thought it was Mike King only.

Cheers
James
 

mkirda

Advanced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
jamesw":3ig5ft4b said:
Steve,

Could you please explain why the MAC-CORL net-training "drifted apart?" I was very excited to hear that they were going to work together (yourself included) to do training.

So what happened?

Second question, is CORL a "we" a "they" or a "him?" I thought it was Mike King only.

Cheers
James

I'd also be very interested in hearing the situation.

According to John Brandt, there was no change.
I asked him for clarification on this, stating that 'no change' implies that MAC/CORL accord was still a go, and that trainings could begin soon.
So far, I have had no response.

I also tried contacting David Vosselar and Lino Alvarez directly for clarification and got no response from either person.

From those on the CORL side of the fence, I have heard a lot of things which make me think that this accord is dead, buried and currently decomposing.

John has stated publicly that getting collectors trained in nets, giving them the proper access to netting materials, improving the villager's fish handling skills, introducing them to exporters willing to pay more for net-caught fish, then working with them to improve any problems that crop up in shipping, consists of only 5% of what is needed.

I'll leave it up to the reader to deduce whether or not this is only 5% of what is needed.

Regardless of the percentage you attribute to these steps, one point is very, very clear. These steps constitute the necessary first step towards certification. If the trainings take place, MAC can also very easily step in afterwards and work on getting the villages certified.

Net-caught fish in the supply line = MAC victory, regardless of whether or not the fish or villages are immediately certified. After the fish start moving, the villages can see the benefits of the trade, and work towards the next step: Resource assessments, no-take zones, greater enforcement against poachers, and a locally produced management plan. Net trainings would get the infant weened and walking on their own: MAC could get the infant running.

Net trainings are a necessary first step. You cannot run without learning first to walk.

Regards.
Mike Kirda
 

clarionreef

Advanced Reefer
Location
San Francisco
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
James,
Mikes infrastructure to engage in reef restoration has staff, offices and equipment already going forth.
CORL was to be the buffer organization linking the different sides. At the time MAC took it seriously, Ferdie had just resigned and there was a need to not lose all those divers and areas that had not been certified.
Since Mike and I could work with Ferdie, we could bring his team back to the table...plus adding our own. I have other trainers waiting right now to add to the effort..
The upshot was to be two complete training teams training at the same time and multiplying the effect, the benefit to all and the number of divers, fish etc. to fuel the certification movement. MACs own country coordinator in the Philippines helped to broker the arrangement.
What happened? The CORL heads and MAC daddies must've not seen eye to eye on things. They talked, communications were exchanged and things drifted apart in an aparent mutual disinterest in continuing.
Mike is happy to just grow coral til the next ice age. He was drafted into this by Ferdie and I. If MAC was not serious with him and there was no ignition, he can just go back to fraggin and working with fisheries and villagers in Samoa. I would hate to lose the aquarium knowledgeable NGO that he represents on this and have proposed the AMDA link and support. AMDA will be involved regardless in pushing reform so I see no problem with the lack of nailing down all the characters and specifics at the moment. Things are still evolving.
Still, Mike like John Tullock may have had enough of MAC and this "business" of reform. I hope that we can still attract a deal and broker a coalition to get things done.
Sincerely, Steve
 

clarionreef

Advanced Reefer
Location
San Francisco
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
John,
If net training, handling and diver safety is of such small concern, clearly an organization that has raised so much capital on the back of this issue can get it done, no? Minimizing net training suggests that anyone could do it and that its just a speed bump to overcome.
That ill advised remark sounded like General Westmoreland underestimating the job of handling a few Viet Cong in Viet Nam.
All the grand designs of the WWF that MAC cottons to to keep funding support [ ie. worldwide creation and establishment of a network of Marine Protected Areas] will fail against this Dien Bien Phu [ or Waterloo is you like] if you gloss over and blow the opportunity to get this right.
Fisherman need livlihood. They have to catch fish to live. Training is livlihood enhancement and enables responsible fisheries to go forth.
The WWF is not handing out resettlement checks to any villagers and to downplay them as you reach for the bigger prize serves niether them, nor the aquarium trade. The elitist view of nature that some big environmental NGOs adopt is borne of ignorance of real life village level reality. Avoidance of the needs of the rural poor entails another cost and especially to wildlife. The fisherman...the tens and thousands of fisherman WILL KILL SOMETHING or catch something to make a living. Of that you can be sure. An anti- fisherman bias will result in their war on and deletion of nature on a massive scale. You will not contain all you hope to inside of ranger patrolled parks. You do not have a coast guard big enough to police your coveted vision of a 'wonderful world of nature without any fisherman.' You will end up killing all you claim to hold dear by alienating the very frontline conservators of the nearshore habitats you want to 'save'. If you do not frontload the fishermans interests and help convert him to sustainable practices, you will reap the effect of that failure.
This WWF mindset drives the cart that harnesses the MAC horse people. You didn't think they really worked for the aquarium trades interests did you? The challenge is wether or not we can reconcile Bruce Bunting and the WWF to understand that the elitist and condescending, patronizing view of nature that they hold is best served by letting village people get the needed training and attention and not just the lofty philisohical concepts that they themselves lack the talent to implement at ground level.
Villages can be partners in conservation and policing. But they won't be unless you get off your high white horse and engage them. If you can't do that, don't worry... some of us can. You don't need to like the plumber who does the dirty work. Just stay out of his way and let it get done.
After its done, you can dispatch him and return to the more "glorious, big picture". You know, that other 95% that you think represent higher thinking.
Fine...claim what you like. Just be assured that the ratio of priority is exactly in reverse. Solving the problem [ like BY PASS SURGERY ] is 95% of the challenge. Tending to the aftermath, just 5%. If that 5% is all that you are familiar with and know how to do...I understand. We all need to feel useful.
Sincere as a heart attack,
Steve
AMDA
 

kylen

Experienced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Where previous money has gone in the past is not what I am questioning nor what one NGO is doing versus another NGO. That has been discussed at length.

What I would like to know is how do we pay for "true" reform to happen and to ensure that it continues to happen? I think that a great deal of infrastucture wil be required to monitor and enforce any policies that are brought about in the new utopian world in which we live. Self policing by the industry hasn't worked for the last thirty years nor has any consumer demand.

Do we continue on this course of action where there is a common goal but many roads to get there? It appears that egos and personal agendas seem to cloud the issue, IMO. Do the great number of well intended NGO's continue to split the pie?

Again, who pays? I am only questioning the funding aspect not what to do with the money.
 

clarionreef

Advanced Reefer
Location
San Francisco
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Kyle,
There are some proposals in already. If they bear fruit...great. If not...not.
But to answer your question... Funding has been found many times over the years...just not by the right team. The funding was there...the ability to make it work was not.
The proof of that is our present reality...and lack of fish that count.
AMDA and CORL will go for it and you can too. Please be my guest.
But it is something that must be earned and if our team gets a full tank of gas, we'll be off and running and not 'chatting' much anymore.
Sincerely, Steve
 

Sponsor Reefs

We're a FREE website, and we exist because of hobbyists like YOU who help us run this community.

Click here to sponsor $10:


Top