Funding Reform

[Jaime Baquero]

Lee,

Many thanks for the information. I consider important to know how many fish dealers are in the states and how many are backing AMDA. When we had our program in the Philippines we had around 40 memberships (most of them hobbyists and a few importers and retailers) supporting our initiatives.
Our membership fee was CDN$20. As you can see we couldn't go far with that amount of money. However, their support was very much appreciated.

In Canada we do not have too many stores dealing with marine ornamentals, but a good number of them (importers and retailers) are supporting businesses in the Philippines that are associated with initiatives tending to reform the industry.

Regards


Jaime

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Lee,

Yes, I noticed that no one from AMDA is answering that simple question. Why?

Jaime

 

[flameangel1]

as to how many AMDA members are listed, for the record, I do know that at least one of those listed, went "under" (out of business ) over a YEAR ago !!!!!!! (and knowing that individual was NOT anyone that AMDA would have wanted to begin with, if they knew anything about his business tactics also )
Notice that I did not name any names here !!!

 

[Anonymous]

Chip,
That is really good news. It seems to me that stopping destructive fishing should have a higher priority than reef restoration. Otherwise it seems like you would just be rebuilding them so they could destroyed again. I believe the estimated cost to train 1000 divers in the Philippines was around $60,000. I think this included the salaries of the trainers. If the training in PI does not happen perhaps it would be worth risking that much to find out if the two training teams can really train as effectively as claimed in Indo. I got a feeling a lot more than that will be spent on luxury travel, and that is not meant to be critical.

So does the $60k include salaries or not? I'd like to donate to the new AMDA NGO, but I'd like to see a projected cost breakdown.

Sincerely,
-Lee

 

[mkirda]

Mike,

PTFEA is only one of the stakeholders of this industry, importers and retailers must be part of the reform process. Don't you think that after many decades of exploiting fisherfolks and coral reefs is time for all of them to put something back?

Jaime,

Regardless of my opinion, I also understand that it matters little...
Importers, frankly, don't give a sh**, Jaime. That much is obvious.
A simple look around will tell you that.

Exporters of marine ornamentals in the Philippines are there to satisfy the demand of fish buyers overseas. Importers and retailers must realize that their participation in this needed reform is key if they want to survive.

Are you this naive, Jaime? They would survive regardless. All it would do is shunt the supply chain to the next in line, Indonesia... PI would get shortchanged, and Jakarta would ramp things up. It's not like PI is the only source of fish in the Indo-Pacific...

Exporters in the Philippines DO need the support of fish buyers overseas (importers and retailers) by accepting to pay more money for their fish. If importers and retailers accept to pay more, I MEAN A REAL PRICE, I am sure hobbyists will follow.

Really? The underlying assumption is that hobbyists are willing to pay more.

I'll bet you a steak dinner, Jaime, that if you took the total number of posts in all the threads in the Industry forum, then compared them to the total number of posts in the general forum talking about 'Where can I get the best price on such and such a fish?', the Industry Forum would lose in a huge way...

In fact, I don't think I've ever even seen a thread stating that the hobbyist was willing to pay more than what it cost in a LFS... :wink:

Since the pressure to get more fish from the reefs is likely influenced and dictated by the prevailing cheap price of aquarium fish. I do think that it is necessary for this industry to re-evaluate the price structure and come with real prices. IMO the industry needs to be active to assure that the trade is economically benefitial for the collectors, if that happens we'll some change.

Regards

Jaime

Jaime, this industry is under attack right now. It is going down in popularity. And unlike the music business, it has no Napster-like MP3 boogey-man to blame for its woes. Raising the prices more will not encourage more people to take up reef aquarium keeping! It is already really quite expensive...

You talk about things is such stark contrasts, Jaime, that it is difficult for anyone to really take the idea seriously.
While I agree in principle with your thoughts, I also recognize that the industry as a whole will never support them.
Instead, I do think that the incremental approach is more rational and will accomplish more in the long run.
If you can get the collectors to stop using cyanide:
If you can get the coral to come back:
If you can get the wastage down, meaning have the fish survive capture and shipping:
If you can get the DOA down:
Then, you, as an exporter, can pay the collectors more because the fish are not dying.
Then, as an importer, you can pay the exporter more.
The collectors are the crux of the entire issue...

Pay them more, they will care for the fish better. But this is going to be incremental, not a 500% jump... Not even a 200% jump immediately.
10% or more, will start them off.
If they can do the above, the 10% will become 25% will become 50% and more.
Slow and steady step by step progress = justice for the collectors.

If you came to the PTFEA and told them to pay 200% more for their fish, they would probably laugh. You are going to have a really difficult sale, Jaime. Yet, if you presented it in the same way as I did, it would make sense. Economic sense. Money is the only thing they will understand.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[MaryHM]

Just a general observation, not an attack on any individual/organization in particular. I could apply this opinion to many different venues.

It seems like the problem the NGO's are having with fixing our little industry is that they don't understand it. They come up with these pie-in-the-sky ideas that would work really well if we lived in fantasy land. But we deal with reality. Real issues, real entrenched values, real ways of doing things, real economic factors. If NGO's would spend as much time trying to learn all of the major and minor aspects of the industry as they do trying to get grants for and implementing unrealistic "solutions", maybe we could get somewhere.

 

[Nancy Swart]

Pay them more, they will care for the fish better. But this is going to be incremental, not a 500% jump... Not even a 200% jump immediately.
10% or more, will start them off.
If they can do the above, the 10% will become 25% will become 50% and more.

Mike, I need to respectfully disagree with part of this. A 10% increase when you're living that far below poverty level is not enough incentive. It's almost an insult. Start with a 100% increase THEN go for 10-20% increases each year.

This needs to be a combined effort between our importers and the PTFEA. The hobbyists are already paying thru the nose for livestock and equipment. And while the LFS usually has a 300% markup, his profit margin is probably the lowest in the chain due to overhead and losses.

Don't forget, these fishermen have been underpaid for 30 years. Let's not take another 30 years to bring them up to speed.

Nancy

 

[MaryHM]

Start with a 100% increase THEN go for 10-20% increases each year.

Oy. Wanna know a secret?? I have received net caught shipments that weren't worth 1% more. On the other hand, I have received some that were worth 20% more. There are so many issues other than cyanide use. And until those are resolved, no one is going to pay to much more for the fish. Cyanide is bad for the fish and the reefs. Handling is bad for the fish and causes way more death on the industry level than cyanide ever thought about causing. A net caught fish isn't necessarily an alive fish. And I'm not going to pay 100% more for a so-so fish, or a fish that comes in good 50% of the time.

And while the LFS usually has a 300% markup, his profit margin is probably the lowest in the chain due to overhead and losses.

I disagree. The importers thrive on high volume, low profit margin. LFS thrive on low volume, high profit margin.

 

[Nancy Swart]

Mary,

Let's forget cyanide and the ignorant (in your opinion) NGOs for a minute. These men are risking their lives and some are dying so that we (hobbyists) can put pretty critters in our tanks!!! WE are already paying $30.00 for a fish that the collector only got .30 for.

You have been the most vocal about the need for reform but now you're saying it's not worth paying a substantially higher price. I'm not talking about the quality of specimens but the quality of these fishermen's lives!!!

No offense, I'm just trying to get educated. What am I missing?

NS

 

[clarionreef]

Nancy et al,
Mary and I already pay more money for less variety netcaught fish.
IT HAS HURT MARKET RECEPTIVITY. It is easy to get everyone to agree that there should be netcaught fish. It is harder however to sell them since most retailers and hobbyists do not practice what they preach...especially in the Chicago area.
Sincerely, Steve
Cortez Marine...netcaught only since 1979

PS Too legit to quit and can't summon the moral laxity to sell out.
Oh well, another clown triggerless year for me, what else is new?

 

[Anonymous]

Oh please, 200% to 500% increase, do you relize what that means at the LFS end, a friggin $60+ PI Coral Beauty. Ok, now compare that to a more colorful $30 fiji coral beauty, or a probably juiced $30 Indo Coral Beauty, which is the hobbyist going to by? Who pays in the end, PI fish collectors, they don't get to sell any of their fish, but they're getting a better price for the meager ones they get to sell :wink: . Your asking for a GLOBAL price structure to increase across the board, or the end of PI exports of marine fish. Basicly, its like asking for all nations with nukes to give them up all at once. No country is going to go first, so it would never happen.

Cyanide is an on going cost. From the figures that previous trainings collected from the actual divers being converted from cyanide use, the divers themselves figured it out to be 35X more espensive to use cyanide over nets. The divers are the ones who provided the figures, they got to see for themselves it is more exspensive to use juice, way more exspensive. What better incentive to use nets? Not to mention all the other evils that go along with cyanide and being on the other side of the law.

 

[Nancy Swart]

Gresham,

The only way I see this working is if we DO make it a global effort. Otherwise, the US will do as Mike suggested and just begin importing from other, cheaper locations.

Who'll go first??? The West Coast importers if they REALLY want to start the ball rolling.

NS

 

[Anonymous]

No, I'm talking ALL exporting nations would have to increase the price of their fish and all importing ones would have to do likewise. The entire world, united of something, WOW 8O . Hows an LA price increase going to solve anything, a lot of people all ready trans-ship. How you going to get all people recieving trans-shipped fish to increase they're price as well? Theres only a few importers how'd do it, and they're all ready paying more, and NONE are in LA. I've seen many mentions of people beliving that the cunsomer really can make a difference, so please write the LA wholesalers and ask them all to increase the price of they're fish. Tell them its for the good of the fishermen, and their country. Please post all responses, this will be good.

 

[Anonymous]

Lee,

Yes, I noticed that no one from AMDA is answering that simple question. Why?

Jaime

Guys, did you write them a letter? If so, I belive they get the typical month and a half response time standard set forth by MAC, even though they see the letter every day they skim the forum .

 

[Nancy Swart]

Gresham,

If everybody's already paying too much then where is it going? Certainly not to the collectors.

NS

 

[Anonymous]

Is there a missing post of mine, I don't know about Nancy? Where did I say that? I just think its funny that you'all think the major importers (LA)and exporters (PTFEA) would be willing to increase they're prices across the board, and at the same time, the entire world industry of aquarium fish exportations/importations would do this also, willingly. Without global CDT enforcement, this would mean the cyanide divers would get a 200% to 500% increase as well. So to stop that, now you have to have the world, not only increase the price of all the worlds marine fish at both the importation and exportation level, you'd have to get the world to form a global CDT enforcement network and agree on its protocals (this is were IMA comes in, right? They've got global offices and major CDT knowledge) and fund it with.......{learned this from Kalk }..........Just can't happen.

 

[Anonymous]

Ever wonder why almost all the net caught wholesalers in North America and Canada have the time, and do, post on this forum? And why, the major wholesalers in LA and the players in PTFEA don't? OK, I've seen a few random posts from 2 LA wholesalers, I'll give them that. Heck, MAC isn't even on the forum, other then John B.

 

[Anonymous]

You guys are forgetting ol supply and demand. What happens when the demand for 75$ coral beauties, isn't as high as the demand for 30$ ones? You end up with the collector making exactly the same.

 

[Anonymous]

Respectfully, by asking for a 100% increase of pay to the collectors Nancy isn't necessarily asking for a 100% increase in the retail price.

Isn't their some mechanism that could be used to pass an additional $0.30 (to use Nancy's example) back up the supply chain to help the collectors?

For instance, if the collectors are paid $0.30 for a fish that retails for $30.00 why couldn't the collector be paid $0.60 for the fish and the hobbyist pay $30.30? The $0.30 increase wouldn't be a market killer.

If the mechanism doesn't exist to do this with out everyone in the supply chain doing a markup on the increase why not create a new mechanism? Perhaps someone should setup a system wherein a bonus is paid to the collectors if their livestock is consistanctly received in excellent condition. When a CDT is in place a monthly bonus could be given to collectors that consistantly sell clean fish.

-Lee

 

[Anonymous]

one of the 'cardinal rules of business according to vitz' is...

'never prostitute yourself, or your product'

seems like the industry has done both-mebbe the prices of fish/corals HAS been artificially low for way too long-with cyanide being the main instrument of creating the false impression to the buying public that fish are cheap, when they really shouldn't be

a coral beauty, in spite of what the ignorant hobbyists/consumers think, really should cost at least $50

if one wants to realistically, and honestly, pay what it truly costs-the damage resulting from the collection methods, and the fix, will end up costing far more, sooner or later :wink:

the ngo's and their funding are kindof making up for that, in a sense

if the hobbyists were forced to pay to fix these issues, through retail pricing,$50 may actually be a pretty sweet deal :wink: