Industry must fund reform itself.

[Anonymous]

Somebody has to be the PIA that blows the whistle. If it's not someone inside the Industry doing it for financial gain, it will be someone outside the Industry doing it to shut the whole thing down. For a while I got a report once a month about a big scandal that the Nutro dog food company caused the Iams company. They claimed that if you followed the feeding guidlines on the Iams bag you would starve your dog. Now obviously no one is going to let their dog starve to death, it just doesn't happen that quick. But Nutro made a big stink about it, claiming that Iams did it so they could be cheaper per feeding etc. IN other words, Nutro found a weakness in the other companies methods and exploited it. They could prove it with tests, had government agencies involved and they made darn sure that every single retailer had a copy of the report. Iams countered with their own tests and made changes to the wording on the bags. Now everyone is happy, with Nutro having gotten a little leg up on Iams black eye.

The problem of course is variety. Before a net caught only company can be ready to take such action they have to be able to provide a viable alternative, both in quantity and selection. Which means training more divers, and making more contacts with people over seas to line up reliable sources of fish. That has to happen first, and I think that is going to require a good bit of investment and a lot of "thinking outside the box".

 

[Anonymous]

Net caught fish need to be marketed as a completely "new product" the same way a new sludge from Marc Weiss would be.

I would think that the fact that Marc's products exist in this marketplace should clue everyone in as to why reform will not work.

Customers don't care, because most of Americans don't care, and America drives this hobby. When the reefs are exhausted and destroyed, Americans won't care...they'll just move on to something else.

It's time for a reality check. As much as we don't like it...that's how it shall be.

Peace,

Chip

 

[Nancy Swart]

Really, folks. Isn't false advertising and misrepresentation of a product illegal in the US?

But when it's what everyone wants to hear, and no one can prove otherwise, then the misrepresentation is considered to be the truth.

That's my point, Mary. Maybe it's time for us hobbyists to find a way to prove who's lying and who's not since industry is doing nothing to police itself. Heck, they won't even pay for the nets or training to eliminate the problem!

To prove my point, look at how much (little) has AMDA collected. Their own members are not supporting the cause!!! No reflection on you or AMDA, Steve...just a fact of life.

This has nothing to do with supply and demand, Rover, but falsely representing fish to be cyanide-free. After reviewing the Mortality data, it amazes me that the industry wasn't shut down a long time ago.

Nancy

 

[clarionreef]

Good one both of you,
Marillion says that man is inherently selfish, shortsighted and greedy.
Rover says this can be remedied somewhat if the variety of "clean" fish offered were better.
I would like to add that the variety can be enhanced and we can make it easier for buyers to choose ethically. This is absolutely a village/field problem.
At MACNA AMDA will host an open house town hall on real, current, constructive reform initiatives. We will launch the AMDA NET SUPPLY FUND and endeavor to raise the mass of barrier netting required to compliment the handnetting already in the Philippines.
No one can claim the 'luxury of fatigue' if they cannot point to things they have actually tried and struggled for. Talk and posting does not count as effort...OK?
PLEASE COME BY THE BOOTH WE'LL HAVE, SEE THE NETTING MUSEUM TO ONCE AND FOR ALL DE-MYSTIFY THE SUBJECT IN YOUR MIND AND HELP OUT THE BARRIER NET DRIVE.
For you anal-accountability freaks,[ for lack of other things to do] meet out treasurer and ask her any questions.
If you are an industry member...join us and push us to result oriented progress.
If you are a hobbyist, retailer, manufacturer or presenter-lecturer...give to and support the fund.
If you have something more concrete, something better, please let us know and speak up in the town hall open forum held in the AMDA room all during the conference.
Please Do something, anything. We, however, are not short of initiative. If you lack some of your own, join us and better us.
Sincerely, Steve Robinson
' new' AMDA president

 

[Anonymous]

What Nancy said.

I guess since "Industry" (present company excluded) has only covered up the issues of cyanide and incredibly high mortality the obligation for reform will probably fall on the shoulders of informed hobbyists. Let's hope that it is a moderate group and not an extremist group of hobbyists.

-Lee

 

[Nancy Swart]

At MACNA AMDA will host an open house town hall on real, current, constructive reform initiatives. We will launch the AMDA NET SUPPLY FUND and endeavor to raise the mass of barrier netting required to compliment the handnetting already in the Philippines.

Excellent, Steve!!! Since the "AMDA Room" is upstairs, I'm sure you'll come prepared with signage to put on the main level. Don't forget to ask the MC (Morris) to announce this at Opening Ceremonies too.

Nancy

 

[Nancy Swart]

What Nancy said.

I guess since "Industry" (present company excluded) has only covered up the issues of cyanide and incredibly high mortality the obligation for reform will probably fall on the shoulders of informed hobbyists. Let's hope that it is a moderate group and not an extremist group of hobbyists.

-Lee

A topic definitely worth adding to our Annual Meeting Agenda!!! Since MASNA is the only group representing the hobbyists, perhaps we need to take up the slack to see that something gets done.

Nancy

 

[Anonymous]

Marillion says that man is inherently selfish, shortsighted and greedy.

I would say that this is a fact proven every single day millions of times. This is why no effort will succeed. Every other facet of negativity in life that people have attempted to eliminate has failed, simply because it's inherent in man to behave this way. There is no changing that.

As far as whistle-blowing on the wrongdoers of the industry, isn't that why the death threats are made in the Philippines? Americans are much more violent than Philippinos, so what would you think the result of "naming names" would be?

Peace,

Chip

 

[MaryHM]

To prove my point, look at how much (little) has AMDA collected. Their own members are not supporting the cause

I'm not an AMDA member, but from my understanding they have not had a newsletter or website update since the first of the year. I don't think the membership has been fully and properly informed of the fundraiser, so to make accusations that the membership is not supporting the cause seems a little premature to me.

 

[clarionreef]

Hi Folks,
In August of last year the seeds of MAMTI were illuminated and the CCIF defined.
I think we exposed them even a year prior but I can't find the oldest thread.
Mitch is right. The revelations of the "plot to take over the industry' are very real.
Vindication of people who knew is important as it can parlay into credibility. Credibility in an ocean of lies and deceit is a precious commodity.
Yes, the scheme was set back by the lack of fish supply to feed the machine. Perhaps they feels things will be different soon.
Steve
PS. Born again on this stuff ? No! I got it right the first time!

 

[Anonymous]

What Nancy said.

I guess since "Industry" (present company excluded) has only covered up the issues of cyanide and incredibly high mortality the obligation for reform will probably fall on the shoulders of informed hobbyists. Let's hope that it is a moderate group and not an extremist group of hobbyists.

-Lee

given that the hobbyists that are concerned about cyanide are the fringe, and not mainstream to begin with, finding the non-extreme hobbyists to support the cause will be very very difficult, if not impossible

methinks yer stuck w/the 'extremists'

 

[Anonymous]

Good one both of you,
Marillion says that man is inherently selfish, shortsighted and greedy.
Rover says this can be remedied somewhat if the variety of "clean" fish offered were better.
I would like to add that the variety can be enhanced and we can make it easier for buyers to choose ethically. This is absolutely a village/field problem.
At MACNA AMDA will host an open house town hall on real, current, constructive reform initiatives. We will launch the AMDA NET SUPPLY FUND and endeavor to raise the mass of barrier netting required to compliment the handnetting already in the Philippines.
No one can claim the 'luxury of fatigue' if they cannot point to things they have actually tried and struggled for. Talk and posting does not count as effort...OK? PLEASE COME BY THE BOOTH WE'LL HAVE, SEE THE NETTING MUSEUM TO ONCE AND FOR ALL DE-MYSTIFY THE SUBJECT IN YOUR MIND AND HELP OUT THE BARRIER NET DRIVE.
For you anal-accountability freaks,[ for lack of other things to do] meet out treasurer and ask her any questions.
If you are an industry member...join us and push us to result oriented progress.
If you are a hobbyist, retailer, manufacturer or presenter-lecturer...give to and support the fund.
If you have something more concrete, something better, please let us know and speak up in the town hall open forum held in the AMDA room all during the conference.
Please Do something, anything. We, however, are not short of initiative. If you lack some of your own, join us and better us.
Sincerely, Steve Robinson
' new' AMDA president

you reach more people w/one post in this forum than you do at 5 macnas

if posting is such a non-accomplisher, why do you bother ? :wink:

 

[Anonymous]

Really, folks. Isn't false advertising and misrepresentation of a product illegal in the US?

But when it's what everyone wants to hear, and no one can prove otherwise, then the misrepresentation is considered to be the truth.

That's my point, Mary. Maybe it's time for us hobbyists to find a way to prove who's lying and who's not since industry is doing nothing to police itself. Heck, they won't even pay for the nets or training to eliminate the problem!

To prove my point, look at how much (little) has AMDA collected. Their own members are not supporting the cause!!! No reflection on you or AMDA, Steve...just a fact of life.

This has nothing to do with supply and demand, Rover, but falsely representing fish to be cyanide-free. After reviewing the Mortality data, it amazes me that the industry wasn't shut down a long time ago.

Nancy

i think it's more a matter of most amda members having other 'causes' as their priority :wink:


it's that whole 'money talks, b.s. walks' axiom of making a living via a business :wink:

 

[Anonymous]

Any notions on how to enlist the trade and industry in the support of its own salvation?

I've mentioned it before. At some point in time a company will come along that will think operating as a "green wholesaler" will be a good business model. It will then be marketed to the hobbyist heavily and at great expense, and at the expense of exposing the under belly of the goings on of some other wholesalers. This has to come from a business. And lots of money needs to be spent both on the structure and organization of the business and on the marketing level of by passing the LFS's and getting the consumers themselves to come into the various shops and asking for "XX's" fish. This would obviously require endorsements and spokespeople and an actual marketing campaign. Similar to MAC but for profit I guess. If it is successful, others will jump on board and then things would be kept on the level through competition.

I've seen it happen with dog food, don't see why it couldn't work here.

methinks you've hit the nail on the head

 

[nanocat]

Wait a minute here. Net fund? Isn't this what Mary had supported and collected for? Wasn't the result that although the collectors seemed to understand how to use the nets, they were extremely poor at housing and shipping fish, and large numbers of shipments came in with dead fish?

I remember that Mary tried really hard to stick with net caught fish, but the folks sending them out let her down. The quality of fish was abysmal. When someone as dedicated as Mary says they sucked, I believe must have been pretty darn bad for her to throw in the towel.

We hobbyists have already proven we're willing to pay more for healthy fish IMO. Many prefer ORA raised clownfish because they are perceived as being in better health, even though the cost is higher. I don't think we mind funding a share of the net training effort, but the result is expected to be healthy fish. I'm not funding something just so someone can wear a green label, and ship dying fish. So what is going to be different this time?

 

[JT]

We hobbyists have already proven we're willing to pay more for healthy fish IMO.

NO! NO! NO!

You, and all internet savy Hobbyists, do not represent the average hobbyist. The true average hobbyist does not visit any of the online communities. The average hobbyist is the one who you see at every LFS across the nation trying to barter the price of a damsel fish.

 

[Anonymous]

We hobbyists have already proven we're willing to pay more for healthy fish IMO.

NO! NO! NO!

You, and all internet savy Hobbyists, do not represent the average hobbyist. The true average hobbyist does not visit any of the online communities. The average hobbyist is the one who you see at every LFS across the nation trying to barter the price of a damsel fish.

well....

Puppy mills used to be a much bigger problem than they are today. What turned that arround? Most breaders will not even sell a pupy to someone who has not done thier homework. Would it hurt your businesses imensly if you handed a newbie a book instead of a fish?

 

[Anonymous]

We hobbyists have already proven we're willing to pay more for healthy fish IMO.

NO! NO! NO!

You, and all internet savy Hobbyists, do not represent the average hobbyist. The true average hobbyist does not visit any of the online communities. The average hobbyist is the one who you see at every LFS across the nation trying to barter the price of a damsel fish.

well....

Puppy mills used to be a much bigger problem than they are today. What turned that arround? Most breaders will not even sell a pupy to someone who has not done thier homework. Would it hurt your businesses imensly if you handed a newbie a book instead of a fish?

puppy mills are still rampant around this country and doing quite well, mostly due to lack of manpower and enforcement capabilities, not unlike the mo biz :wink:

 

[Anonymous]

We hobbyists have already proven we're willing to pay more for healthy fish IMO.

NO! NO! NO!

You, and all internet savy Hobbyists, do not represent the average hobbyist. The true average hobbyist does not visit any of the online communities. The average hobbyist is the one who you see at every LFS across the nation trying to barter the price of a damsel fish.

well....

Puppy mills used to be a much bigger problem than they are today. What turned that arround? Most breaders will not even sell a pupy to someone who has not done thier homework. Would it hurt your businesses imensly if you handed a newbie a book instead of a fish?

puppy mills are still rampant around this country and doing quite well, mostly due to lack of manpower and enforcement capabilities, not unlike the mo biz :wink:

Oh, I hold no illusions that they have been stamped out, but they are not as prevalant as I recall. There has been some progress made there, and mostly through education.

<edit>
The LFS where I buy my fish will not even sell some species of marine fish, until the purchacer brings in a sample of thier tank water to be tested. (test is free of course), and they will produce test results for thier tank water at any given time. That at least shows some responsibility. If that kind of attitude could be carried over to other issues...
</edit>

 

[spawner]

Really, folks. Isn't false advertising and misrepresentation of a product illegal in the US?

I think we have been down that road before, try to blow the smoke away, you get drilled with attacks from every direction. Call a company out on something and they just cry out that you must be working with a competitor. We have changed the ads from one or two companies misleading the hobby, man what a hornets nest. :twisted:

Try it sometime, You enjoy it.

andy