Let the vanilla certification begin!!

[MaryHM]

Jenn,

MAC was aware of many issues that needed to be dealt with prior to certification being implemented. They purposefully chose to ignore them and move on with certification- planning to work out the kinks as they went along. However, now that certification is moving along, even more problems are rearing their ugly head. The points you brought up were ones that I had never considered waaaaaaaaaay back when I was providing input to the standards. I have a feeling even more will be cropping up as this train wreck goes screeching down the tracks...

 

[Anonymous]

MAC Certified is the new Hand/Net Caught.

 

[dizzy]

At this point in time I can understand a MAC retailer or wholesaler being able to buy non-MAC fish and stay in good standing - because the number of species is apparently limited. However, it does not make sense that a non-MAC retailer can purchase MAC fish - renders the playing field very unfair to those who spent the time and money to earn the certification - as vanilla as that certification is, in my personal opinion, they at least deserve to get their money's worth.
Jenn

So Jenn,
Say there are four MAC certified retailers and 500 MAC certified mandarins and copperband butterflys. The MAC boys take 250 of the above. What is the wholesaler supposed to do with the rest? Eat them! The people in the MAC certifed collecting areas gotta eat too Jenn.

 

[MaryHM]

Part of the MAC collection standards require that animals be collected to order. Meaning if there aren't orders for 500 certified mandarins, then there should not be 500 collected.

http://www.aquariumcouncil.org/docs/1/p ... RD%201.pdf

These are the collection core standards. Page 7 item 1.2.2 requires that the collectors review order instructions from the buyer prior to taking action on the order. Page 14 number 50 defines order instructions as the number and type of MAC certified animals requested by the buyer.

 

[JennM]

That's the other side of the coin exactly - however, why should X pay more for a "certified" fish just because that's what's there?

X has to eat too.... why should he be forced to pay more because the fish comes with call letters? Since he's not certified, he's not "supposed" to be able to tout it as such, and not be able to ask more for the fish at retail. Besides, if supplier Q has mandarins for one price, and supplier E has non-certified fish a dollar or two cheaper - if X is ordering from both places that week, he'll probably buy the cheaper ones, since they are not a cyanide caught fish. I'd bet that any wholesaler with a lick of business sense would sell them off however he needed to in order to turn them over if he was in a rush to move them, certified or not. If that meant "demoting" them, so be it. (I am not implying that same said wholesaler would "promote" a non-certified fish to fill a MAC order, that would be harder to do, due to the intense paper trail, but could still be done, but that's another issue to pick holes in, and one we've talked about here before too).

I avoid that problem altogether by not buying mandarins But that's another post too...

The whole system is riddled with probems, which is my point entirely.

Oh and about those 500 certified mandarins -- according to David Vosseler AND Paul Holthus, that glut situation wouldn't happen because MAC retailers will be placing ORDERS and fish will be collected according to what is ordered, and there will be a "standing order" for certain "bread and butter" fishes that are always in high demand. These standing orders would be based on data provided by the MAC retailers... This was told to me specifically over the phone by David, in our lengthy converstation several months back. Others have brought up the impracticality of this proposed system, and I'll defer to them to pick holes in that, but I asked that very question and if I'm to believe what MAC tells me (insert belly laugh here), then that just wouldn't be the case, to have an extreme surplus of a given species. If that was the case, and somebody (gasp, dare I say it...) MISCALCULATED (*snort!*) then I submit that the fish should be DE-CERTIFIED before being sold to a non-certified retailer - then there would be no notation on the invoice, no possiblity of X scooping up any vanilla, and somebody along the chain would have to eat a price difference if there was one (not sure who - but I'm not on the board at MAC - I'm just a non-certified retailer...). Decertification of the fish BEFORE it leaves the chain would close the door on X to be showing that invoice to his customer and selling MAC without buying the MAC accoutrements.

A DE-CERTIFIED fish would still be perceived of higher value if it was caught according to MAC best practices and stanadrds (*g*) but if purchased by a non-certified retailer, it should not be noted as such on any paperwork once it leaves the MAC chain of custody.

Jenn

 

[Anonymous]

Excellents points and I do detest vanilla. But why do we keep talking about MAC as though they are the only game in town?

What else can we do other than talk with other hobbyists and LFSs about conservation issues and vote thoughtfully with our wallets? Perhaps donate to a netting or a collector training fund? Are there any truly excellent programs or NPOs out there that we should be supporting?

-Lee

 

[MaryHM]

Basically, MAC is the only game in town right now. I've spoken with Ferdinand Cruz about sending over some netting material. I'd like to start a fundraising drive of sorts sometime in May- as soon as Ferdinand is ready.
There aren't any programs that I think are worthy. The only thing I find worthy is finding suppliers that I know and trust, establishing a business relationship with them, and trying to help us both make money by selling ethically collected/handled animals to retailers and hobbyists. I think the need for education is huge. So many hobbyists aren't even aware there is a problem, and many of the ones who are don't really seem to care. But how someone goes about educating the masses is beyond me. I've done everything I can to educate via the net, but that only reaches a small portion of the buying public. Any suggestions??

 

[JennM]

You can lead the horse to water.... but you can't test it for cyanide

Like Mary, I speak to the market using my buying dollars and encourage my customers to do the same, but most figure that ALL stores have the same philosphy I do - and it wouldn't be professional of me to accuse other stores of deliberately selling juiced fish, or deliberately putting on blinders to the problem.

Ask *almost* ANY sales rep at any of the big LA wholesalers if all their fish are net caught and of course they are going to say YES - they aren't about to tell you that they either don't know, or don't care. I know ONE rep with the big folks who knows that I won't buy anything but net caught, and honestly if I ordered from him I think he'd pick and pack my order himself because he knows I don't just pay lip service -- however there are some species I wouldn't buy from him because I believe that all of the same species, regardless of origin, are plopped together in the holding tanks, so there's no sure way to know just where that individual came from. Even then, at times it's a crap shoot if I don't know exactly where a species hails from. SO I end up spending all my dollars where I know where everything I order is a safe bet - and that cancels out all of the big box wholesalers. Besides I like to be able to call the OWNER of the wholesaling company and chat with them - and I'm able to do that where I'm dealing now - even if I haven't called them all in a while *g*. Being the owner of my own business, I like to be able to talk to the owner of the company I'm dealing with. Can't always do that with big companies, and when I did ask for the owner, they didn't know who I was. Sure I'm a small player in a big game...

As for awareness, education and fundraising, I brought this possibility up with the Atlanta Reef Club and the current BOD was somewhat receptive. If anybody has educational videos, materials etc. (beyond the MAC brochures we were sent...) I'd love to be able to make a presentation to the club at an upcoming meeting. I'd also talked briefly with Steve about fundraising for netting - that's something hands-on that the club can do, but we need someplace to be able to send the money - and that was not in place yet.

There has also been discussion about donating netting or having the divers pay some sort of fee for the netting, to encourage responsible care for it - and to some extent I agree -- I've seen some of the primitive gear that these folks fashion themselves and my hat is off to them for their resourcefulness and ingenuity, and that tells me that on one hand, they would care for more sophisticated equipment if it was provided to them, on the other hand, if folks have to work for something, they are more likely to value it - that's just human nature --

I'm not sure what the answers are - but I do what I can each day, and if enough of us do a little - change will come.

Jenn

 

[Anonymous]

Mary,

Thank you for all you've been doing. I'm happy to see that you are selling directly to hobbyists that want ethically collected marine livestock and materials and are unable to obtain them locally. I'm all for donating/supporting a netting fund if that will help. In fact I think I've heard that John Brandt and Steve of AMDA might be working on something like that. Is what you are doing part of an AMDA program?

Perhaps if we work with the marine clubs to get the word out? I realize that only a small percentage of hobbyists ever frequent their local club, but it is a reasonable place to start. Perhaps submit consise articles regarding conservation issues to the MASNA newsletter editor and request that the information be diseminated to their membership? Ask clubs to place conservation tracts at LFSs?

Reef conservation issues should be the keynote address at the marine conferences (MACNA, IMAC, etc.), IMO. I'm happy to hear that John will be speaking at IMAC. Several of the most popular hobby speakers (Borneman, Fenner, etc.) have voiced an interest and a willingness to help out with conservation issues but it seems that no one has really taken them up on their kind offers with a comprehensive program.

I realize these may be dumb ideas...

-Lee

 

[JennM]

They aren't dumb ideas at all -- in fact they are good ones.

I was dismayed to hear Julian Sprung speak in Atlanta a couple of months ago, boosting MAC. Curiously, during the Q&A session which followed, only one person asked about MAC and whether they had a presence in Haiti, to which Julian answered NO, and that discussion gave way to the other topic he had presented, nano-reefs.

I was prepared to ask some hard questions but did not, since I was the guest of another LFS' owners, and didn't want to exhaust my welcome by possibly embarrassing their guest, but I didn't miss that the subject of MAC was largely ignored by the 80-some people who attended. If the discussion had become centered around MAC, I would have spoken out, but as it happened, it was not the time or place.

With someone with influence such as Sprung, behind MAC, they have an advantage - I wonder if Julian reads these discussions? He listened with interest while he was signing books and posters, to a conversation I had with one of the other store owners, about the airline issues regarding the transport of live animals - while he didn't offer any input, he took in what we were saying with great interest. I wonder if Julian's support of MAC would remain the same, if he was aware of the other side? I wanted to speak to him the next day at the APPMA show he was in town for, but when I went to his booth, he wasn't there, and I didn't get a chance to get back.

Hobbyists who are interested in self-education, listen to people like Sprung - this can be a mixed blessing.

Just my opinion, as always...

Jenn

 

[Anonymous]

Jenn,

I see we were typing at the same time, and that you type faster than I do. LOL.

A short educational video would probably go over well with a lot of clubs. Well prepared, accurate brochures would be excellent as well.

After reading some of the mortality statistics in some of the papers Dr. Rubic sent me I felt sick to my stomach. Still do. It's almost to the point that I'm not certain that I can justify purchasing wild-caught livestock anymore.

-Lee

 

[JennM]

Smoke comes off my fingers as I type - and I'm on slow dialup so I can burn off replies while waiting for my bank to download transactions in another window

The problem is, only MAC has complied PR materials and statistics, that I'm aware of, in recent times. We got these pretty brochures, a picture from which, I posted in another thread here -- the one with 17 tangs and 50 clowns...

Jaime B mentioned a video available a while ago - I still might send for that, just to get some message out there that this stuff is still going on.

Jenn

 

[Anonymous]

Here's my prediction. MAC will completely bypass the small independent stores and go straight to the chains.

Between Petco, Petsmart, and Drs. Foster and Smith, they'd have all the business they would need, the organizational structure to keep paperwork straight, the beauracracy that only watches the bottom line of boxes in and boxes out, the ability to move a lot of just bread and butter, and the marketing to make it all work.

Just my two cents. And yes I know Petsmart doesn't sell saltwater fish, yet. :wink:

 

[JennM]

Interesting observation, Glenn, you could very well be right on the mark.

Jenn

 

[dizzy]

Jenn, Rover,
MAC was actually started by Rick Horn of Petsmart. They were wanting better handled fish to sell in their stores. Of course MAC will have to certify these major players. Once that happens the little guys will be SOL. Too bad you weren't AMDA members last year it was pretty amazing how the whole story came out one little piece at a time. Steve and Mary were there. So was Matt and a several others.

 

[Anonymous]

I knew it was something like that.

 

[John_Brandt]

Here's my prediction. MAC will completely bypass the small independent stores and go straight to the chains.

Between Petco, Petsmart, and Drs. Foster and Smith, they'd have all the business they would need, the organizational structure to keep paperwork straight, the beauracracy that only watches the bottom line of boxes in and boxes out, the ability to move a lot of just bread and butter, and the marketing to make it all work.

Just my two cents. And yes I know Petsmart doesn't sell saltwater fish, yet. :wink:

Rover,

No bypassing. Any retail store that wishes to be certified and can meet the standards, will be certified. Nobody is skipped over or bypassed.

John Brandt

MASNA
MAC
CMAS-Chicago

 

[dizzy]

John,
We are already seeing that the big box stores get priority treatment when it comes to aquacultured clownfish. If any are left they go to the "little guys". The same thing will surely happen once the fish supply is monopolized and certifed. I tried to get David Vosseler to reassure me that this wouldn't happen at the last MACNA. Dave was too nice a guy to lie about it. Sure everyone can join MAC, but the big players will be taken care of first. You can take that to the bank John.

 

[John_Brandt]

That's the other side of the coin exactly - however, why should X pay more for a "certified" fish just because that's what's there?

X has to eat too.... why should he be forced to pay more because the fish comes with call letters? Since he's not certified, he's not "supposed" to be able to tout it as such, and not be able to ask more for the fish at retail. Besides, if supplier Q has mandarins for one price, and supplier E has non-certified fish a dollar or two cheaper - if X is ordering from both places that week, he'll probably buy the cheaper ones, since they are not a cyanide caught fish. I'd bet that any wholesaler with a lick of business sense would sell them off however he needed to in order to turn them over if he was in a rush to move them, certified or not. If that meant "demoting" them, so be it. (I am not implying that same said wholesaler would "promote" a non-certified fish to fill a MAC order, that would be harder to do, due to the intense paper trail, but could still be done, but that's another issue to pick holes in, and one we've talked about here before too).

I avoid that problem altogether by not buying mandarins But that's another post too...

The whole system is riddled with probems, which is my point entirely.

Oh and about those 500 certified mandarins -- according to David Vosseler AND Paul Holthus, that glut situation wouldn't happen because MAC retailers will be placing ORDERS and fish will be collected according to what is ordered, and there will be a "standing order" for certain "bread and butter" fishes that are always in high demand. These standing orders would be based on data provided by the MAC retailers... This was told to me specifically over the phone by David, in our lengthy converstation several months back. Others have brought up the impracticality of this proposed system, and I'll defer to them to pick holes in that, but I asked that very question and if I'm to believe what MAC tells me (insert belly laugh here), then that just wouldn't be the case, to have an extreme surplus of a given species. If that was the case, and somebody (gasp, dare I say it...) MISCALCULATED (*snort!*) then I submit that the fish should be DE-CERTIFIED before being sold to a non-certified retailer - then there would be no notation on the invoice, no possiblity of X scooping up any vanilla, and somebody along the chain would have to eat a price difference if there was one (not sure who - but I'm not on the board at MAC - I'm just a non-certified retailer...). Decertification of the fish BEFORE it leaves the chain would close the door on X to be showing that invoice to his customer and selling MAC without buying the MAC accoutrements.

A DE-CERTIFIED fish would still be perceived of higher value if it was caught according to MAC best practices and stanadrds (*g*) but if purchased by a non-certified retailer, it should not be noted as such on any paperwork once it leaves the MAC chain of custody.

Jenn

MAC Certified Collectors do collect to fill orders. The orders are placed by MAC Certified Exporters. Presently more MAC Certified animals are ordered and sold than reach MAC Certified Retailers. The supply and demand is balanced. But as we know MAC Certified animals can now end up in a retail store that is not certified. If only the animals that were to end up in MAC Certified Retailers comprised orders, then the fishers at Batasan and Tangaran would have problems. This is anticipated to change as more retailers become certified. It would be an ideal situation is all MAC Certified animals ended up in MAC Certified Retailers.

Throughout this discussion it is important to remember that MAC Certified Collectors strictly engage in non-destructive methods of capture, holding and transport. This holds true regardless of where these animals end up.

John Brandt

MASNA
MAC
CMAS-Chicago

 

[mkirda]

Rover,

No bypassing. Any retail store that wishes to be certified and can meet the standards, will be certified. Nobody is skipped over or bypassed.

John Brandt

John,

Here's a possible scenario though... If retailer's overtake supply, smaller retailers will not be able to get MAC fish...

MAC is in a weird position at the moment... They can supply the market with cleaner wrasses. They have more than the MAC certified stores could possibly take (from what I have heard). But they have a very limited number of species, and none of the real 'money' fish that the stores really want to supply. So, in some fish, supply outstrips demand, and in others, demand far exceeds supply.

They need to certify more areas, and quickly. This without good field staff and/or trainers...

Can they pull it off?

Regards.
Mike Kirda