Let the vanilla certification begin!!
- Thread starter MaryHM
- Start date
Rover":1te9oz7f said:
Rover,
I sat down with David V. of MAC, Steve Robinson and John Brandt last night. I had hoped we would talk about the situation in the Philippines as that is what I care most about. Instead, the three prattled on about the importer/retailer side of things while I kept my mouth shut (minus some popcorn munching) and learned about something I know little about.
According to David, MAC is not hitching their wagon to the big chain stores. Instead, they are much more aligned with brick and mortar independents. David expressed some degree of incredulity that hobbyists would purchase a fish via the Internet, sight unseen, without knowing if it was eating or diseased. He claims that this is not the direction MAC wants to go.
Regards.
Mike Kirda
naesco":22o3y1br said:Hi Mike and that would be me and it is cognac not wine.
My previous post was not about you, but about people who, in general, think that a CDT position paper 'solves' everything. It does nothing until implemented properly...
I will discuss them with David today. But I am just a white guy with still little experience in the way things really work in the Philippines. IOW, my opinion is not as important as others working in the Philippines would be. MAC should solicite Marivi Laurel's opinion, as well as BFAR's and others involved in the CDT labs before. These are the people who know what is going on, and who know what people were doing to get around it. Their thoughts and opinions matter far, far, far more than mine ever will.
Regards.
Mike Kirda
Once again, MAC isn't making any sense. MAC makes $$$ from certification (or at least they will be once it's up and running). We all know that their funding is not as good as it once was, and I would imagine they are going to be needing money to start rolling in soon. Now, would it make more sense to hit the big chains, who are already all aware of MAC, or to try to convince uneducated independents (I guarantee you the majority of which don't even know/care about MAC)?? Look at it this way....does it make more business sense to certify 400 stores in one swoop or to pick up independent retailers one by one by one?? The people that run MAC are business people- lord knows they aren't marine ornamental industry people. Business people who see funding getting smaller and smaller are going to make business decisions. What they say now and do later are generally two different things. If we've learned anything here, it's that.
Mike wrote:
[/quote]According to David, MAC is not hitching their wagon to the big chain stores. Instead, they are much more aligned with brick and mortar independents. David expressed some degree of incredulity that hobbyists would purchase a fish via the Internet, sight unseen, without knowing if it was eating or diseased. He claims that this is not the direction MAC wants to go.Regards.
Mike Kirda[/quote]
Well Mike at least Dave is sticking to the same story he gave me at MACNA. I actually believe MAC would prefer not to certify the big boxes and the dropshippers. (Yet) I also believe President Bush didn't want to send our troops into harm's way in Iraq. I don't think the bank enjoys foreclosing on the family farm. I doubt ORA enjoys seeing Petco use A. oscellaris clowns as a loss leader at the expense of the independent stores either. And I know for sure I didn't want to have the ACL surgery on my knee in January. The problem is that we sometimes have to do things whether we really want too or not.
Petco and Drs. Smith & Foster have to get certified. It is the only way they can save face. They have played the environmental trump card and if they don't get certifed they end up looking like fools and hypocrites. I am willing to bet that David Vosseler's degree of incredulity about mail order was very small or insincere. Sorry Dave, but you know Race and Marty on a first name basis and you got to know these guys do serious volume.
Well MAC you got yourself quite a dilemma. You know the big boxes and dropshippers will use muscle to control the fish supply. You know in your heart that you will be creating an environment that will not be friendly to the independent stores. Yet you still need the support of the little guys in the mean time to make this certification scheme look legitimate.
Mary is right, it is cold, hard business decision and nothing more.
When we are gone it will matter very little to us that you are sorry.
[/quote]According to David, MAC is not hitching their wagon to the big chain stores. Instead, they are much more aligned with brick and mortar independents. David expressed some degree of incredulity that hobbyists would purchase a fish via the Internet, sight unseen, without knowing if it was eating or diseased. He claims that this is not the direction MAC wants to go.Regards.
Mike Kirda[/quote]
Well Mike at least Dave is sticking to the same story he gave me at MACNA. I actually believe MAC would prefer not to certify the big boxes and the dropshippers. (Yet) I also believe President Bush didn't want to send our troops into harm's way in Iraq. I don't think the bank enjoys foreclosing on the family farm. I doubt ORA enjoys seeing Petco use A. oscellaris clowns as a loss leader at the expense of the independent stores either. And I know for sure I didn't want to have the ACL surgery on my knee in January. The problem is that we sometimes have to do things whether we really want too or not.
Petco and Drs. Smith & Foster have to get certified. It is the only way they can save face. They have played the environmental trump card and if they don't get certifed they end up looking like fools and hypocrites. I am willing to bet that David Vosseler's degree of incredulity about mail order was very small or insincere. Sorry Dave, but you know Race and Marty on a first name basis and you got to know these guys do serious volume.
Well MAC you got yourself quite a dilemma. You know the big boxes and dropshippers will use muscle to control the fish supply. You know in your heart that you will be creating an environment that will not be friendly to the independent stores. Yet you still need the support of the little guys in the mean time to make this certification scheme look legitimate.
Mary is right, it is cold, hard business decision and nothing more.
When we are gone it will matter very little to us that you are sorry.
As far as certifying certain online stores that don't even have facilities of their own, I think that is wrong. I don't care if they are buying MAC fish from a MAC certified facility. If the individual business itself is not capable of being certified because of a lack of facility (remember, to sell MAC fish you must have a MAC certified facility), then they should not be allowed to advertise MAC certified fish. It's no different than the uncertified LFS buying MAC certified fish and not being able to advertise them as such.
Well Mary,
You can bet your sweet biffy these guys are smart enough to find a way around that little bump in the road. How about if the nurses rent a room from EMI and set up a small storefront? You know kind of like Jack in the Box at the Seven Eleven store. It isn't all too much different from companies renting a post office box in Nevada so they have cheaper corporate taxes. Where there's a will there's a way.
You can bet your sweet biffy these guys are smart enough to find a way around that little bump in the road. How about if the nurses rent a room from EMI and set up a small storefront? You know kind of like Jack in the Box at the Seven Eleven store. It isn't all too much different from companies renting a post office box in Nevada so they have cheaper corporate taxes. Where there's a will there's a way.
Here's another example of misrepresentation- again from the Reef Central board:
This person is in Boise, ID- no certified facilities are in Boise. This is becoming an epidemic. Does MAC realize that their certification plans are spiraling down the tubes because retailers are not being properly informed about what is/isn't MAC certified??? Who knows, because Holthus has yet to respond to my letter. The threads are quickly unraveling, and the emperor is going to be naked pretty fast if he doesn't get his act together and stop this vanilla![/quote]
This person is in Boise, ID- no certified facilities are in Boise. This is becoming an epidemic. Does MAC realize that their certification plans are spiraling down the tubes because retailers are not being properly informed about what is/isn't MAC certified??? Who knows, because Holthus has yet to respond to my letter. The threads are quickly unraveling, and the emperor is going to be naked pretty fast if he doesn't get his act together and stop this vanilla![/quote]
Mary, did you challenge that poster? Did you respond that there are no MAC facilities in ID?
If not, you should - simply point out a link to the list of certified retailers - that should cast a pall of doubt...
I'm not sure what's more distressing - the certifications themselves, or the perception by the buying public of what "certified" is? They are running neck and neck.
It saddens me the black eye that the reform movement is receiving or about to receive from all of this.
I feel like we're about to find out we've taken a huge leap backward.
Jenn
If not, you should - simply point out a link to the list of certified retailers - that should cast a pall of doubt...
I'm not sure what's more distressing - the certifications themselves, or the perception by the buying public of what "certified" is? They are running neck and neck.
It saddens me the black eye that the reform movement is receiving or about to receive from all of this.
I feel like we're about to find out we've taken a huge leap backward.
Jenn
Challenge the poster? Why no, Jenn. I'm too shy and demure for that. Of course I challanged the statement! He then replied that he thinks the store is in the process of getting certified. Either way, the fish they are selling are not MAC certified. Look what's happening here, guys. A major wholesaler only recently became MAC certified, and since then we've had 2 cases of misleading MAC certification reports from hobbyists. Those are just from the minority of hobbyists that are on the internet. Can you imagine how many 100's of hobbyists are being mislead right now that we'll never know about???
Of course I challanged the statement! He then replied that he thinks the store is in the process of getting certified. Either way, the fish they are selling are not MAC certified. Look what's happening here, guys. A major wholesaler only recently became MAC certified, and since then we've had 2 cases of misleading MAC certification reports from hobbyists. Those are just from the minority of hobbyists that are on the internet. Can you imagine how many 100's of hobbyists are being mislead right now that we'll never know about???Shy and demure - you scared me there for a minute... 8O
Yeah the 'net is just the tip of the proverbial iceberg - and since there is no way for anybody to really police this thing - there's nothing really stopping any retailer from buying MAC stuff from you know who and touting it - like I said, all they have to do to "prove" it is show the customer the description on the invoice - there it is in black and white.
Why is it that every step of the way, more problems seem to crop up?
I'll concede that MAC's certification plan was a collossal undertaking to begin with, but did the powers that be within the organization not anticipate any of this? I can see unexpected bumps in the road cropping up but these are huge obstacles.
Jenn
Yeah the 'net is just the tip of the proverbial iceberg - and since there is no way for anybody to really police this thing - there's nothing really stopping any retailer from buying MAC stuff from you know who and touting it - like I said, all they have to do to "prove" it is show the customer the description on the invoice - there it is in black and white.
Why is it that every step of the way, more problems seem to crop up?
I'll concede that MAC's certification plan was a collossal undertaking to begin with, but did the powers that be within the organization not anticipate any of this? I can see unexpected bumps in the road cropping up but these are huge obstacles.
Jenn
I find it somewhat humorous that whats happening with MAC certification is exactly what was so worrisome to those of us AMDA folks a few years ago. No enforcement - the label means squat.
I seem to recall that MAC required different MAC shipments to be in different holding tanks... any one been to LA recently and checked? :mrgreen:
I seem to recall that MAC required different MAC shipments to be in different holding tanks... any one been to LA recently and checked? :mrgreen:
Yeah Tom. I remember being called "paranoid" by some in AMDA at the time. Now here we are, full circle. Funny? It would be funny if it wasn't so sad.
MAC revised some of their standards and I think the whole separate holding systems thing was exchanged for just keeping the animals separated within the same system. In other words, make sure that in your MAC certified facility your MAC certified fish don't carouse with your cyanide caught ones.
MAC revised some of their standards and I think the whole separate holding systems thing was exchanged for just keeping the animals separated within the same system. In other words, make sure that in your MAC certified facility your MAC certified fish don't carouse with your cyanide caught ones.
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