What would happen....

[mkirda]

one... you have never had someone fart next to you outside in the open ............Two........ you believe tear gass only works if it hits the kidnaper on the head.............Three........that in a swift current ...trout cannot smell the fishermen if he fishes up stream...........?and lastly if that milk also contained nuclear waste that the fish in the river would not become ill down stream?

Oh, so the laws of physics do apply in Georgia?

How can you understand all of the above, yet continue to spout off the earlier crap about averages in a perfectly expanding cloud?

Why do you find it odd that I talk about the plume and fluid dynamics?
It is an integral part of the process, the squirt of the cyanide out of the bottle into a body of water that is probably slowly moving. Squirt that into a coral head, it affects the area hit, and those areas downcurrent, typically in an expanding cloud, until it reaches a point where the concentration is low enough that it has no visible effect.

It would seem that everyone understands this, and that you understand the basic theoretical underpinnings of the process, yet you cannot get a grip around how it would actually work. Hence the milk in river suggestion.

And the nuclear waste question? What is up with that?

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Kalkbreath]

Good grief...IM not saying it never happens ........In fact IM saying it always happens every single time with with sea food collectors.....dead fish everywhere..............But ..Do you not understand that when a rookie pet fish collector goes out and instead of breaking up one tablet into partial pieces...that he by mistake uses the whole tablet...........squirts into the coral head and every fish comes up dead,........that he is not going to learn this lesson.........and next time he squirts..... use a less strong dose? Or do you really think hour after hour,day after day these collectors are going to come back in after a another day of fishing telling themselves sorry there were a lot of fish out there but they all died after I squirted them..............Explain to me why you think these fishermen are that dumb........Peter..They are smart enough to figure out that a heavy concentrated blast disperses into an even larger .plume of less intense ppm and you still cant contemplate that one?........cyanide fishermen adjust their doses according to the conditions and there target species.........I have a question Peter......how can some one come up with a ppm concentration in the squirt bottle .......if the bottle does not contain one million parts?

 

[JennM]

......how can some one come up with a ppm concentration in the squirt bottle .......if the bottle does not contain one million parts?

:::::::Falls out of her chair laughing:::::::::

 

[mkirda]

I have a question Peter......how can some one come up with a ppm concentration in the squirt bottle .......if the bottle does not contain one million parts?

One cyanide tablet = X grams. 1 squirt bottle holds Y liters. Therefore, if we assume the tablet fully dissolves in Y liters of water, the concentration would equal X grams per Y liters. Or X*1000 milligrams per Y liters. Which equals X*1000/Y ppm. Simple algebra, Kalkbreath.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Kalkbreath]

Yes....... but this is not possible to achieve within a squirt bottle with one tablet...{its based on what the concentration would be if it were to mix with one million parts} ...its not until you release the mixture from the confines of the bottle that it can reach even a 1 PPM.......This is when the plume that you say cant exist......has to come into play........Peter,how many parts are in one cyanide tablet........and whats the minimum gallons of water to arrive at a 2000ppm ratio? Then tell me how this could happen in the real world without a dilution plume? Lastly you state that collectors use several tablets.....in one bottle? whats the minimum amount of H2O needed to reach a one parts per million water to cyanide ratio....if five tablets are used..........? 8)

 

[PeterIMA]

Kalk, I already answered most of your questions, with what I have already posted.

As far what dilution ratio is needed to arrive at 2000 ppm that depends on the number of tablets in the bottle (already discussed), the rate at which they dissolve (not known), the water conditions into which the plume is placed (still or currents) etc.

Your question "Then tell me how this could happen in the real world without a diluton plume" is total nonsense. I already stated that there is a dilution plume.

Hence, your questions show a complete lack of undestanding of chemistry and physics (of dilution plumes). You were provided with enough information by myself and Mike Kirda to do the dilution calculations yourself.

Lets assume that each tabet is equivalent to 20,000 milligrams (mg) sodium cyanide-NaCN (information previously given). If each tablet is equivalent to 11,000 mg of cyanide ion (CN-) then 5 tablets would be roughly equivalent to 55,000 mg/L (ppm) CN- if fully dissolved in a one liter squirt bottle. I already stated that this probably does not occur. The tablets slowly dissolve over time, which extends the time that the diver can stay underwater fishing. Under these circumstances the diver cannot control the concentration. He can subjectively judge the potency by watching the fish either drop dead or become stunned and modify his behavior (where he directs the plume).

If one ignores the squirt bottle, the amount of water needed to reach a 1 mg/L concentration in seawater when one starts with 55,000 mg is 55,000 liters. You figure out how many liters there are in a gallon(British and American gallons differ in volume)

The way to control the concentration would be to dissolve the tablets in a known amount of seawater and then put the correct concentration of cyanide solution into the squirt bottles. I have heard of this happening in Indonesia. But, most of the time the tablets are placed in the squirt bottles, water is added and the diver goes into the water, where he sprays cyanide on the reefs, kills lots of fish, and exposes himself to harmful concentrations of cyanide ion that is absorbed across the diver's skin.

 

[Kalkbreath]

This again shows that it is impossible to collect fish alive at concentrations any where near what you suggest...............Try dipping a fish in 2000ppm cyanide test tank and see what you get...Try it again at 200ppm..... So we have determined that one would need a 55,000 liter squirt bottle to have a concentration of2000 ppm { five tablets.}........You still cant see that this is only food fishermen that fish at these levels..........Dead fish are of no use to hobby collectors....{and they are not as syupid as you suggest{}.....................The idea that you really think hobby fishermen outright kill 90% of what they hunt ,even before they bring them back to shore.is silly ............Hobby fishermen brake off portions of a tablet...................mix it into the bottle........ test the effects on trash fish and then go hunting ...................only food fishermen think more cyanide is better.........Lastly, do some tests on fish and cyanide levels ........not coral......... find out what exposer levels are possible in livefish collection........There is no cyanide coral collection........ :wink:

 

[PeterIMA]

Kalk, This time you went to far. If you don't know anything don't pontificate. Tell your other friends to watch their step.

 

[PeterIMA]

Kalk, You are contradicting your own questions. I answered your question "What is the volume to achieve a 1 ppm ratio starting with five cyanide tablets?" In your last response you changed the question to "What is the volume of water to achieve a 2000 ppm concentration if you start with five cyanide tablets?"
Next you insult me personally (hence my response).

If you had read any of my papers you would see that I stated that 50% of the fish die on the reef from acute doses of cyanide (not the 90% mortality that you provided in your posting).

 

[PeterIMA]

Kalk, You continue to argue that there is some concentration that is safe and that is what collectors use. There is plenty of scientific evidence that cyanide is harmful at all concentrations. Hence, there is no safe concentration. Even if you cut the tablet into pieces, the concentrations that result are harmful. If you don't believe me, prepare a concentration of 2 ppm CN- and drink it yourself.

Cyanide is a deadly poison. Hence, it has been used in gas chambers for human executions, for example by Hitler to eradicate Jews, and by Sadam Hussein to kill Kurds. Its action in humans is similar to its action in fish. It is a deadly respiratory poison that interfers with the ability of the organism to metabolize oxygen. The main site of action is the mitochondrion (found in every cell in the body). It interfers with electron transport by blocking the action of key enzymes (like cytochrome oxidase) that facitate the metabolism of oxygen needed by all living cells. Hence, the animal is rapidly killed because it cannot metabolize oxygen. In corals the key site of action is the zooxanthellae that support photosynthesis. Dr. Lynn Margulis has proposed that during evolution the zooxanthellae evolved into mitochondria as organisms became multicellular. Hence, the zooxanthanthellae and mitrochondia are fundamental organelles that support photosynthesis (in plants, symbiotically in corals) and respiration in animals.

Hence, there is no safe concentration of cyanide. The levels of cyanide that destroyed zooxanthellae and killed 8 genera of corals and one species of sea anemone ranged from 300 to 600 ppm in the Cervino et al. paper. This is much lower than the 2000 ppm minimum concentration used by collectors. Note I said minimum, 2000 ppm is a very conservative estimate (as some of my earlier calculations indicated). Even if the collectors used only 1/4 of a tablet, they still end up with concentrations exceeding 2000 ppm in the squirt bottle. My point was that they cannot control the concentration coming out of the squirt bottle. They can only direct it away from the corals. But, if the fish are in the corals, guess where they squirt the cyanide? Cyanide kills fish and corals.

It is illegal to use cyanide for fishing in all of the countries we have been discussing. So, even if I were wrong (I am correct not wrong) you cannot justify its use. Any collector caught with cyanide in his or her possession is breaking the law in the Philippines (irrespective of whether they used it for fishing or not).

Peter Rubec

 

[mkirda]

This again shows that it is impossible to collect fish alive at concentrations any where near what you suggest.

Jeez, Kalk. Are you having problems with algebra or what?
You *can* do math, right? If so, then you can double-check Peter's numbers.

Why don't you calculate the numbers with 1 tablet in a half liter squirt bottle?
(That would be easier than assuming a 437 ml bottle, or a 632 ml bottle. Don't want to make things too difficult for you...)

What do you come up with as concentration inside the bottle?
How about if you assume that the tablet dissolves 10% every ten minutes?
What do you come up with as concentration?
Spell it out for us. Show Peter where he made his math error.

There is no cyanide coral collection........ :wink:

Duh. :roll:

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Kalkbreath]

I have never said cyanide is not harmfull....My point in this topic is that, with every square kilometer of reef in PI being fished by seafood collectors......And with them using levels of cyanide 1000 times greater when they fish , collecting fifty times more fish for export and estimated 100 times more in self use {dinner}...What are the chances that certified collectors are going to accidentally collect some of the seafood collectors sprayed by-catch? AND what if three percent of all fish in PI at any given moment are tainted with food fish industry cyanide? With the majority of Reeformers demanding a 100% clean report...if testing resumes.......what if it is not possible?................" If You and I walk out to the Ocean in PI ,scoop up some damsels , and I turn and hand them to you to test and they turn up with cyanide present.......How will you respond.....

 

[Kalkbreath]

This again shows that it is impossible to collect fish alive at concentrations any where near what you suggest.

Jeez, Kalk. Are you having problems with algebra or what?
You *can* do math, right? If so, then you can double-check Peter's numbers.

Why don't you calculate the numbers with 1 tablet in a half liter squirt bottle?
(That would be easier than assuming a 437 ml bottle, or a 632 ml bottle. Don't want to make things too difficult for you...)

What do you come up with as concentration inside the bottle?
How about if you assume that the tablet dissolves 10% every ten minutes?
What do you come up with as concentration?
Spell it out for us. Show Peter where he made his math error.

There is no cyanide coral collection........ :wink:

Duh. :roll:

Regards.
Mike Kirda

I am the one that pointed out that you cannot have concentrations as quoted by Peter inside the squirt bottle with even one tablet...{you snickered}..and now Peter Agrees..{quote}"Even if the collectors used only 1/4 of a tablet, they still end up with concentrations exceeding 2000 ppm in the squirt bottle."{end}......Im the one that pointed out that there has to be a dilution plume....{you snickered}..and I pointed out that .......you cant collect alive fish with 2000 ppm concetrations..it kills every fish instantly.......A 2000 ppm must dilute to 200 then 20 then to 2ppm { you snickered, but you look silly now}And I am the one pointing out that the experiment conducted to study the effects of cyanide fishing did not take these into consideration ....nor the fact that hobby fishermen rarely kill their pray out right when they fish {they are not that stupid } And lastly I am the one pointing out that there is a huge amount of by-catch in the seafood industry with regards to their cyanide use.............It must be taken into account or it will bite you in the end.....

 

[mkirda]

{ you snickered, but you look silly now}

I beg to differ. I have consistently pointed out to you every error you have made in your posts regarding cyanide. You've done little to combat this but continue to make up silly numbers in an effort to refute known facts.

At this point, you look like you can't do simple math. Please prove me wrong.
Please prove Peter wrong. At this point, you've done neither.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Anonymous]

geese, kalk

i was gonna post a reply to your insane/inane assertions, (and lack of math/algebra skills :lol: )but the only thing i can come up with is :roll:

i'd like to address your 'stupidity' comment about the divers, though.

i certainly don't think any of them are stupid-but they may be ignorant/ uneducated about the results of their use of cyanide, OR, they may not have a choice/alternative(or don't think they do), atm.

after all-seing as how the cyanide is also poisoning THEM, through skin absorption (btw- are you gonna try and challenge that one too, w/some more lunatic rhetoric?)-i would think that the latter assumptions about their usage of 'juice' would be the more likely scenario.

where the hell do you get your info from, anyway? it's so off base as to be utterly laughable

you know-most of what's posted here in these forums is verifiable on the net, by most people who'll take a little bit of time to do their own research.

aren't you worried at all about how ridiculous you make yourself seem to those folks, w/all of your nonsense?

 

[mkirda]

aren't you worried at all about how ridiculous you make yourself seem to those folks, w/all of your nonsense?

Vitz,

You hit that nail on the head.

One of my biggest fears... I know several reef scientists, having met them in Bali in 2000. They are openly hostile to the aquarium hobby. They are also big names and have influence on government policy. They read this board infrequently, and I am aware of instances where they have used some of the nonsense posted here (especially the cyanide-apologist stuff) to help them lobby for an all-out ban on the trade.

You want to know why I continue to beat my head against the wall?
Because I do not want to see this hobby destroyed.

I'm all for healthy debate and differing viewpoints, but if we continue to project this image of cyanide apologists, those who have the power and influence will act to shut this trade down. Kalkbreath, being whom you are and doing what you do for a living, surely you can understand this.
There are those who will use your words against you.
And against the entire trade.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Kalkbreath]

What math do you disagree with....{do you still disagree that Franks math was crap?} .....{do you disagree that twelve million dollars in fish exports from Austrailia is stupid?} {do you disagree that only 100 fish per square mile are exported from PI per year?{thats not even one individual per species!}........this is just the latest in a long line of silly nonsense ......that reef keepers are bombarded with...... Have the guts to ask specific questions....{"Oh Kalks crazy"} .That too easy...............Peters' studies show that fish cannot live in exposers above 200ppm......then that means hobby fish collectors dont collect at those levels.......Its not that hard to follow.........the concentration inside a cyanide bottle with five tablets is over 100,000ppm .......its silly to think you can hobby fish with that level............Lets use one of your famous.....cyanide fishing examples Mkirda{the one in Advanced Aquarist........} the hole at the base of that bleached coral head .......was how big? Maybe you could stick your arm inside......so it had a water volume of about one to two gallons.........Peter, if a cyanide fishermen had a squirt bottle with more then 100,000ppm inside {five tablets}......what amount of discharge would be required to raise the level inside the hole in the reef to 2ppm ? My guess is that if the bottle was one forth of a gallon.....and the water inside the hole was two gallons.......the amount of squirt would have to be LESS the one drop.....{now thats skill}......... even one drop would raise the cyanide level high enough to kill the fish inside the hole..........And hobby collectors export LIVE fish ..................No one has yet attempted to answer my topic question......What if the huge amount of seafood cyanide fishing causes five percent of all fish in PI to test positive? Next time lets test non hobby target fish .....fish that also are of no food value......if those fish test for Cyanide .....What will be your response.....?

 

[mkirda]

What math do you disagree with....

I don't disagree with any math. I do disagree with the numbers you pull out of... um, er.... Somewhere... Whenever I have confronted you about these, asking you where you got them from, I have been greeted with a deafening silence.

{do you still disagree that Franks math was crap?} .....

Irrelevant, but haven't seen enough of his figures to say one way or another. I refuse to characterize his data when he has posted less than single digit percentages of the whole.

{do you disagree that twelve million dollars in fish exports from Austrailia is stupid?}

More irrelevant. Nope. Haven't read the report as it doesn't interest me in the slightest.
You got problems with the report, you should consult the study's author.

{do you disagree that only 100 fish per square mile are exported from PI per year?{thats not even one individual per species!}........

Jeez, even more irrelevant. Not having the numbers at my finger tips, I couldn't say either way.

this is just the latest in a long line of silly nonsense ......that reef keepers are bombarded with......

This is the most incisive self-criticism I have ever seen.

Have the guts to ask specific questions....

I have. They have never once been answered.

{"Oh Kalks crazy"}

Agreed.

That too easy...............Peters' studies show that fish cannot live in exposers above 200ppm......then that means hobby fish collectors dont collect at those levels.......Its not that hard to follow.........the concentration inside a cyanide bottle with five tablets is over 100,000ppm .......its silly to think you can hobby fish with that level............Lets use one of your famous.....cyanide fishing examples Mkirda{the one in Advanced Aquarist........} the hole at the base of that bleached coral head .......was how big? Maybe you could stick your arm inside......so it had a water volume of about one to two gallons.........

Kalk. Listen to me. For the last time... There was no hole!
Please... This is getting really, really tedious having to point out the same thing to you over and over and over and over and over.

Repeat after me.... "There is no hole."

Earlier in this thread, you disputed Peter's math.
I asked you specific questions. Very specific.
You could answer those. They are but simple math questions.

Peter, if a cyanide fishermen had a squirt bottle with more then 100,000ppm inside {five tablets}......what amount of discharge would be required to raise the level inside the hole in the reef to 2ppm ? My guess is that if the bottle was one forth of a gallon.....and the water inside the hole was two gallons.......the amount of squirt would have to be LESS the one drop.....{now thats skill}......... even one drop would raise the cyanide level high enough to kill the fish inside the hole..........And hobby collectors export LIVE fish ..................No one has yet attempted to answer my topic question......

Hint: No MO collector in their right mind would use five tablets of cyanide.
Peter spells that out in his paper. How could you quote the five tablets, but miss this part? Or didn't you read it?

What if the huge amount of seafood cyanide fishing causes five percent of all fish in PI to test positive?

Irrelevant nonsense question. To be true, do you realize all the assumptions that have to take place, Kalkbreath?

You would need five percent of the reefs in the Philippines to be hit simultaneously.
You would need the dispersion to be uniformly mixed.
You would need the adjust the potency to the prevailing current conditions.
You would need to repeat this application every week.
You would need to be sure that those fish were caught and went for CDT testing.
You would need to ensure that the testing was truly random across the reefs and across the species.

Occam's razor suggest this model is too complex.

Next time lets test non hobby target fish .....fish that also are of no food value......if those fish test for Cyanide .....What will be your response.....?

So, you want to pay the fisherman what exactly to catch fish that have no value to the marine ornamental market and to the fish market? What would be the incentive? Why would they do this exactly?

Wow, three more specific questions.
Add those to your list too, eh?

If I infer correctly, you are positing that all of the 'cryptic fish' (those not wanted for the MO or food markets) would also test positive for cyanide. Furthermore, the cause of this exposure is due solely to food fishermen.
From this, you want to further infer that MO fish test positive solely from the food fish trade, right? That's the whole of your argument?

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Kalkbreath]

So you agree that only seafood collectors use full strength cyanide bottles? Or not? Why is it so hard to understand that when seafood hunters....squirt a reef at these levels they expose hundreds of reef fish .....to various levels ranging from 100,000 to 1ppm. A fully loaded cyanide bottle can create a 2ppm plume......100 thousand times greater then the volume concentration in the bottle.....or two thousand times greater in a bottle with only one forth a tablet............This means that in an area of exposer that great.........fishing for one grouper, hundreds of fish are exposed to cyanide...Some die instantly, some days later ,most of the fish are exposed at levels which only stun them.......{they swim away}. Do you disagree that the seafood industry exports fifty times more fish then our hobby? ......do you disagree that alot of the 82 million people that live in PI eat fish ?{The only free source of food}....and in Peters' testing 35 percent of sea food were found to contain cyanide........? you dont think that equals 100 times more cyanide fishing from that industry ...then why......? Picture this ......How could a hobby collector surrounded by 100 seafood collectors ...fishing the same reef not accidentally catch some of those 100 food fishermen's fish?

 

[Kalkbreath]

So you agree that only seafood collectors use full strength cyanide bottles? Or not? Why is it so hard to understand that when seafood hunters....squirt a reef at these levels they expose hundreds of reef fish .....to various levels ranging from 100,000 to 1ppm. A fully loaded cyanide bottle can create a 2ppm plume......100 thousand times greater then the volume concentration in the bottle.....or two thousand times greater in a bottle with only one forth a tablet............This means that in an area of exposer that great.........fishing for one grouper, hundreds of fish are exposed to cyanide...Some die instantly, some days later ,most of the fish are exposed at levels which only stun them.......{they swim away}. Do you disagree that the seafood industry exports fifty times more fish then our hobby? ......do you disagree that alot of the 82 million people that live in PI eat fish ?{The only free source of food}....and in Peters' testing 35 percent of sea food were found to contain cyanide........? you dont think that equals 100 times more cyanide fishing from that industry ...then why......? Picture this ......How could a hobby collector surrounded by 100 seafood collectors ...fishing the same reef not accidentally catch some of those 100 food fishermen's fish?