What would happen....

[blue hula3]

Hey blue hula ...Steve says your wrong....So does Peter.......QUOTE}Robinson 1983b1983c observed that N2cn was used extensivly for capturing food fish. The cyanide fishermen with a "production -at-all-costs" mentality were noted to impoverish the non -collecting members of their own community {Robinson 1984b} The cyanider makes his living by raiding and damaging other peoples fishing grounds as well.............[END QUOTE] I could not have said it better myself.............................................."He said CYANiDER".....In my best Arnold voice.........."Ill be BAACK" ......"I am the CYANIDER" "Come with me if you want to live" ......{SQUIRT SQUIRT} :wink:.......................................................................................................................................................http://www.marine.org/PDF_Downloads/The ... ppines.pdf

Kalk,

Steve said "production at all costs" which is not the same as arguing that the "means of production controls the cost". What Steve was referring to is something Daniel Pauly of University of British Columbia refers to as "Malthusian overfishing" ... when fishers actually destroy the habitat that produces the fish (as opposed to simply removing the fish). That is "production even if it destroys the resource"

I said simply that, IMO, means of production (cyanide vs net) isn't what controls cost ... or net profit as you will ... when the resource is so limited.

My opinions are also my own and independent of what Steve, Peter or anyone else might think.

Cheers,

 

[mkirda]

You really think there are only 300 fish per kilometer square in PI? thats one fish every three acres.

Kylen,

This is the sort of statement that is the source of the steady thumping noise...

You give him any number, he extrapolates from there regardless of whether I make it a point to tell him that he cannot extrapolate from this number or not. I mean I call him on the logical fallacies he makes time and time again, yet he ignores them and continues to make the same flawed arguments with the same flawed numbers.

Here is an example of The Law of Kalk's Logic:
Mike owns a Civic Hybrid. He has gotten an average of 49 miles per gallon on the highway. Multiply this across the US, average mileage gotten in the US is 49 MPG.
Or I could use another extreme example: Mike owns a Ferrari Testarossa. It gets 8 MPG. So the entire US fleet average is 8 MPG.

Same logic. Same extreme examples. Same flawed logical outcomes.

Kalk,

When I say "cite", I mean cite any peer-reviewed journal.
Until you cite something meaningful, this discussion is all moot.
Your arguments so far *still* boil down to: I don't like the answers I'm getting, I don't think that they are right and that is that.

Until you can cite something meaningful that shows that the numbers posted are wrong or poorly produced or that the underlying collection method was flawed, you are just blowing smoke.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Kalkbreath]

"Cyanide is used extensively for food fish capture."..........."You can even collect fish you cant see"............What other tool can you use to collect a 100 pound grouper or an eighth of an ounce gobie without changing hands.......? Did you read the papers? If so you should be able to connect those quotes with their authors.............Peter and Steve have been saying in the past, what I have been pointing out lately..........only they said it when I was in high school..........And nothing has changed after twenty years...{well I have lost some hair}.......Perhaps if they had {twenty years ago} focused the attention on the seafood industry like I am doing .today...........the reefs would not have suffered so in the four US Presidents since then ............If we continue to shift the blame away from the real killers and instead ,to our hobby and its tiny impact .............The reefs will surely suffer the same results..........Its time to change the approach and go after the big boys.........Like Steve said , to save a reef from our industry ........only to have it sprayed the next day by seafood fishermen .......saves neither the reefs our our hobby............... :wink:

 

[Kalkbreath]

You really think there are only 300 fish per kilometer square in PI? thats one fish every three acres.

Kylen,

This is the sort of statement that is the source of the steady thumping noise...

You give him any number, he extrapolates from there regardless of whether I make it a point to tell him that he cannot extrapolate from this number or not. I mean I call him on the logical fallacies he makes time and time again, yet he ignores them and continues to make the same flawed arguments with the same flawed numbers.

Here is an example of The Law of Kalk's Logic:
Mike owns a Civic Hybrid. He has gotten an average of 49 miles per gallon on the highway. Multiply this across the US, average mileage gotten in the US is 49 MPG.
Or I could use another extreme example: Mike owns a Ferrari Testarossa. It gets 8 MPG. So the entire US fleet average is 8 MPG.

Same logic. Same extreme examples. Same flawed logical outcomes.

Kalk,

When I say "cite", I mean cite any peer-reviewed journal.
Until you cite something meaningful, this discussion is all moot.
Your arguments so far *still* boil down to: I don't like the answers I'm getting, I don't think that they are right and that is that.

Until you can cite something meaningful that shows that the numbers posted are wrong or poorly produced or that the underlying collection method was flawed, you are just blowing smoke.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

Once again, Why do you feel there is a problem with collection in PI........How can you have formed an opinion ....if you have have not even begun to educate yourself of the facts..........If you have .........please reveal you educator? It is apparent that neither Peter of Steve has an opinion which you respect ? .....".I know you are ,but what am I"........went out with Pee Wee Herman ............as did masturbating in public..........Do you even remember where the 300 fish per kilometer2 came from? I do like the Answers Steve and Peter have given..........Why dont you?

 

[blue hula3]

Here is a study you might find of interest.....http://www.pcsd.ph/Study%20and%20findin ... ssment.htm

Well Hallelujah lordy lordy ... you've finally posted some data. Thank you for the interesting numbers. Certainly the groupers are at higher densities than we saw them in Bohol. The study also goes on to say that:

"Groupers are generally higher in density ( that is number of individual per hectares) in SAN VICENTE, DUMARAN, BUSUANGA, BROOKE'S POINT, MAGSAYSAY and ARACELI ( however, for the Calamianes WWF study showed that the fish being caught and traded in the livefish industry are young and sexually immature to maturing individuals)."

Without the size of fish provided it is hard to know what to make of the grouper numbers. Groupers are generally slow growing and reach sexual maturity late ... they are also often aggregate spawners, requiring reasonable densities in order to actually reproduce. That they indicate that the fish being extracted are immature is very worrisome (wonder where those 100 lb groupers are hiding?) particularly since the website indicates they've reopened the live food fishing in the area.

Cheers,

 

[mkirda]

as did masturbating in public.

Has your argument gotten this puerile?

Jesus, Kalk, this is a new low even for you.

Once again, I'll take the high road...

You claim that the numbers provided by Peter are wrong, you need to provide the evidence to back up your claims.
Cite something meaningful that supports your argument.
You have failed to do that in EVERY INSTANCE so far.
It is not up to me, nor anyone else, to provide these for you.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[blue hula3]

(1) What fish do groupers eat ?- a major study of grouper gut contents (J. St. John, PhD thesis, James Cook University) showed that groupers primarily eat pelagic schooling fish NOT demersal fish and NOT damsels as Kalk has repeatedly inferred. Thus, it's apples and oranges to compare the hobby to a grouper in terms of impacts on species targetted by the marine aquarium trade.

We as a hobby take less reef fish per square kilometer then one three pound grouper eats ! If you think grouper are not eating what ever swims past them {you have never owner one as a pet} They dont stay in open water and what for tuna or giant sun fish to swim by ...........they eat any and everything that swims by there mouth. If there are two grouper per square kilometer......then those two fish eat more fish per year the our hobby removes......from that same kilomter2...period..

Goldfish and guppies are feederfish for all sorts of pets that don't normally eat them. What your grouper eats in a fish tank is hardly relevant. Frankly, if someone has gone to the trouble of opening the guts of hundreds of groupers as part of a PhD and tells me "found mostly pelagics" ... I kind of believe them more than I accept your pet analogy ... and yes Kalk, no tuna or sunfish were found in the guts ...

And I will say it again ... it doesn't matter how many fish a grouper eats. It matters how many fish we extract from what's left after the grouper is done (unless you want to do away with the grouper)

And again, there is little evidence to suggest that aquarium collectors and groupers are competing for the same species as diet studies indicate groupers eat mostly pelagics (including squid you might be interested to hear).

Cheers,

 

[mkirda]

"Groupers are generally higher in density ( that is number of individual per hectares) in SAN VICENTE, DUMARAN, BUSUANGA, BROOKE'S POINT, MAGSAYSAY and ARACELI ( however, for the Calamianes WWF study showed that the fish being caught and traded in the livefish industry are young and sexually immature to maturing individuals)."

Without the size of fish provided it is hard to know what to make of the grouper numbers. Groupers are generally slow growing and reach sexual maturity late ... they are also often aggregate spawners, requiring reasonable densities in order to actually reproduce. That they indicate that the fish being extracted are immature is very worrisome (wonder where those 100 lb groupers are hiding?) particularly since the website indicates they've reopened the live food fishing in the area.

Cheers,

It is open and continuing, Jessica, in the Calamianes.
The fish are also small, at least the ones I saw at the food fish traders, small enough to fit into small export-sized styroboxes normally used for MO fish export. I saw them taking them out by small plane while I was there. I have heard that BFAR testing of CN showed significant percentages testing positive.

And as for these 100 lb groupers? Never saw one, nor heard of one.
These may as well be unicorns.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Kalkbreath]

as did masturbating in public.

Has your argument gotten this puerile?

Jesus, Kalk, this is a new low even for you.

Once again, I'll take the high road...

You claim that the numbers provided by Peter are wrong, you need to provide the evidence to back up your claims.
Cite something meaningful that supports your argument.
You have failed to do that in EVERY INSTANCE so far.
It is not up to me, nor anyone else, to provide these for you.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

Tell me what you think Peters numbers are .......?

 

[Kalkbreath]

(1) What fish do groupers eat ?- a major study of grouper gut contents (J. St. John, PhD thesis, James Cook University) showed that groupers primarily eat pelagic schooling fish NOT demersal fish and NOT damsels as Kalk has repeatedly inferred. Thus, it's apples and oranges to compare the hobby to a grouper in terms of impacts on species targetted by the marine aquarium trade.

We as a hobby take less reef fish per square kilometer then one three pound grouper eats ! If you think grouper are not eating what ever swims past them {you have never owner one as a pet} They dont stay in open water and what for tuna or giant sun fish to swim by ...........they eat any and everything that swims by there mouth. If there are two grouper per square kilometer......then those two fish eat more fish per year the our hobby removes......from that same kilomter2...period..

Goldfish and guppies are feederfish for all sorts of pets that don't normally eat them. What your grouper eats in a fish tank is hardly relevant. Frankly, if someone has gone to the trouble of opening the guts of hundreds of groupers as part of a PhD and tells me "found mostly pelagics" ... I kind of believe them more than I accept your pet analogy ... and yes Kalk, no tuna or sunfish were found in the guts ...

And I will say it again ... it doesn't matter how many fish a grouper eats. It matters how many fish we extract from what's left after the grouper is done (unless you want to do away with the grouper)

And again, there is little evidence to suggest that aquarium collectors and groupers are competing for the same species as diet studies indicate groupers eat mostly pelagics (including squid you might be interested to hear).

Cheers,

I have fished for grouper in Fla for twenty years......They will eat anything they can.......if it wiggles they will eat it.........If it jumps from one tank to another they will eat it ........There is not one fish in my store that I could place in the tank with a large grouper other then a lion fish that would not be eaten in 2 seconds .......Your really silly ......I wonder if this was a cold water study you keep referring to ? There are an average of 900 groupers per square kilometer in PI .......How many reef fish do you think those 900 fish eat a year?

 

[Kalkbreath]

"Groupers are generally higher in density ( that is number of individual per hectares) in SAN VICENTE, DUMARAN, BUSUANGA, BROOKE'S POINT, MAGSAYSAY and ARACELI ( however, for the Calamianes WWF study showed that the fish being caught and traded in the livefish industry are young and sexually immature to maturing individuals)."

Without the size of fish provided it is hard to know what to make of the grouper numbers. Groupers are generally slow growing and reach sexual maturity late ... they are also often aggregate spawners, requiring reasonable densities in order to actually reproduce. That they indicate that the fish being extracted are immature is very worrisome (wonder where those 100 lb groupers are hiding?) particularly since the website indicates they've reopened the live food fishing in the area.

Cheers,

It is open and continuing, Jessica, in the Calamianes.
The fish are also small, at least the ones I saw at the food fish traders, small enough to fit into small export-sized styroboxes normally used for MO fish export. I saw them taking them out by small plane while I was there. I have heard that BFAR testing of CN showed significant percentages testing positive.

And as for these 100 lb groupers? Never saw one, nor heard of one.
These may as well be unicorns.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

You never answered my question.........What can you collect a 100 pound grouper or a one-eighth of an ounce gobie .... And it fits in the palm of your hand?wink:

 

[Kalkbreath]

(1) What fish do groupers eat ?- a major study of grouper gut contents (J. St. John, PhD thesis, James Cook University) showed that groupers primarily eat pelagic schooling fish NOT demersal fish and NOT damsels as Kalk has repeatedly inferred. Thus, it's apples and oranges to compare the hobby to a grouper in terms of impacts on species targetted by the marine aquarium trade.

We as a hobby take less reef fish per square kilometer then one three pound grouper eats ! If you think grouper are not eating what ever swims past them {you have never owner one as a pet} They dont stay in open water and what for tuna or giant sun fish to swim by ...........they eat any and everything that swims by there mouth. If there are two grouper per square kilometer......then those two fish eat more fish per year the our hobby removes......from that same kilomter2...period..

Goldfish and guppies are feederfish for all sorts of pets that don't normally eat them. What your grouper eats in a fish tank is hardly relevant. Frankly, if someone has gone to the trouble of opening the guts of hundreds of groupers as part of a PhD and tells me "found mostly pelagics" ... I kind of believe them more than I accept your pet analogy ... and yes Kalk, no tuna or sunfish were found in the guts ...

And I will say it again ... it doesn't matter how many fish a grouper eats. It matters how many fish we extract from what's left after the grouper is done (unless you want to do away with the grouper)

And again, there is little evidence to suggest that aquarium collectors and groupers are competing for the same species as diet studies indicate groupers eat mostly pelagics (including squid you might be interested to hear).

Cheers,

I think you need to narrow it down to reef grouper......Yes cold water Altantic grouper dont eat reef fish because there are no reef fish for hundreds of miles..........Reef grouper {Smaller ones} wait and hide in caves to ambush their prey {I thought you were a diver?

 

[mkirda]

Tell me what you think Peters numbers are .......?

You quoted Peter, you forget what you quoted, now you want me to go look them up for you???

Really, Kalk... After your earlier comment, the only thing you should be asking me for is my forgiveness.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[mkirda]

You never answered my question.........What can you collect a 100 pound grouper or a one-eighth of an ounce gobie .... And it fits in the palm of your hand?wink:

Kalk,

You never answer any of my questions, yet continue to ask them of me...
Sorta like unrequited love...

Answer: A net.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Kalkbreath]

I have answered every question .....Peter made the statement

Kalk, ..........The Bolinao reef is heavily degraded with annual yields of about 2.5 metric tonnes per square kilometer per year. At least 60% of Philippine coral reefs are in poor to fair condition. The 500 fish per square kilometer standing stock estimate from the Bolinao reef is most probably fairly typical of the situation in the Philippines.
Peter Rubec [END QUOTE] Well let sea .........How many fish would one need to collect each week to end up with 2.5 metric tonnes? = @120 pounds......If the standing stock of fish is 500 .......how many of those fish are clown fish and damsels......? how many are gobies or mandarins? How many damsels are in 120 pounds? lets say these fish are one pound damsels :roll: Then that would mean we would need to collect 120 fish a week =380 fish left.......next week take 120 fish and there are 260 fish left? It wont take long to not have any fish left even after the first month? What about hobby fish collection ? Its not possible to harvest 6000 pounds of fish a year from a standing stock of 500 fish!

 

[blue hula3]

I have fished for grouper in Fla for twenty years......They will eat anything they can.......if it wiggles they will eat it.........If it jumps from one tank to another they will eat it ........There is not one fish in my store that I could place in the tank with a large grouper other then a lion fish that would not be eaten in 2 seconds .......Your really silly ......I wonder if this was a cold water study you keep referring to ?

Kalk,

Again, my point is not that a grouper won't eat what is put in front of it in a tank (or on a hook)... that's kind of like shooting goldfish in a barrel.

The question is whether they eat reef fish also targeted by the marine aquarium collectors in the wild, particularly small reef fish that can hide in nooks and crannies. The PhD study on grouper gut contents was done at James Cook University (Townsville) on coral trout (plectropomus leopardus) ... a decidely tropical beast living on the Great Barrier Reef and incidentally also found in the Philippines. This study clearly suggests that grouper DO NOT typically eat reef fish targetted by marine aquarium collectors but pelagic schooling fish.

There are an average of 900 groupers per square kilometer in PI .......How many reef fish do you think those 900 fish eat a year?

Based on the PhD study, I'd say NONE.

They may indeed eat some larger reef fish. But the diet study clearly indicates they don't eat damsels, gobies, blennies, butterflies ...
and thus are not in competition with marine aquarium collectors

So again, the answer would be NONE.

Perhaps the calories in a goby or damsel aren't worth the energy expended to catch them ... without a net that is

Cheers,

 

[blue hula3]

Kalk,
The study was for the tropics. Groupers also tackle schooling pelagics - guess the probability of scoring is high.

And yes, I am a diver. 20+ years now including a stint as divermaster in the Caribbean which had me in the water 7 days a week, 3 dives a day.

Your point is?

 

[blue hula3]

You never answered my question.........What can you collect a 100 pound grouper or a one-eighth of an ounce gobie .... And it fits in the palm of your hand?wink:

Kalk,

Fishermen do not make the selection of gear based on the probability of collecting an animal that no longer exists.

J

 

[Kalkbreath]

I have fished for grouper in Fla for twenty years......They will eat anything they can.......if it wiggles they will eat it.........If it jumps from one tank to another they will eat it ........There is not one fish in my store that I could place in the tank with a large grouper other then a lion fish that would not be eaten in 2 seconds .......Your really silly ......I wonder if this was a cold water study you keep referring to ?

Kalk,

Again, my point is not that a grouper won't eat what is put in front of it in a tank (or on a hook)... that's kind of like shooting goldfish in a barrel.

The question is whether they eat reef fish also targeted by the marine aquarium collectors in the wild, particularly small reef fish that can hide in nooks and crannies. The PhD study on grouper gut contents was done at James Cook University (Townsville) on coral trout (plectropomus leopardus) ... a decidely tropical beast living on the Great Barrier Reef and incidentally also found in the Philippines. This study clearly suggests that grouper DO NOT typically eat reef fish targetted by marine aquarium collectors but pelagic schooling fish.

There are an average of 900 groupers per square kilometer in PI .......How many reef fish do you think those 900 fish eat a year?

Based on the PhD study, I'd say NONE.

They may indeed eat some larger reef fish. But the diet study clearly indicates they don't eat damsels, gobies, blennies, butterflies ...
and thus are not in competition with marine aquarium collectors

So again, the answer would be NONE.

Perhaps the calories in a goby or damsel aren't worth the energy expended to catch them ... without a net that is

Cheers,

What keeps the grouper from eating the reef fish ? The groupers would have to never eat ANY reef fish for 900 groupers to not eat two fish{which is what our hobby collects} Does the data show that grouper NEVER eat reef fish? And is this the same PHD that thinks Austrailia exports 12 million in marine ornamentals?

 

[Kalkbreath]

Kalk,
The study was for the tropics. Groupers also tackle schooling pelagics - guess the probability of scoring is high.

And yes, I am a diver. 20+ years now including a stint as divermaster in the Caribbean which had me in the water 7 days a week, 3 dives a day.

Your point is?

You never see the groupers pick off fish as the fish get distracted by the divers......like during hand feedings ?