So will anything come out of MO '04?

[Anonymous]

If I could find an enlightened investor, I could go do it...train our own teams, create a vertically integrated chain of in-house staff and cease this self-destructive quest to reform the trade for the good of all.

Steve, How much would this enlightened enterprise cost (what amount per invester)?

Peter

Steve,
We're still waiting for an answer to Peter's question. There may well be potential investors lurking so to quote the late John Lennon: "We'd all love to see the plan".
Mitch

FWIG, Steve's talking private business, hence "investor". Had he used the magic word "funder", he'd be talking NGO. If thats the case, I really don't think Steve should post a reply, but PM any concerned party, ie. possiable investor. Conducting business on this board simply seems wrong to me.

 

[clarionreef]

To make it simpler,
We need an outside the trade example.
Millions of cardinal tetras are killed on purpose in the super heavy packing densities determined by the Amazon traders in them.
Do you think that you could ever 'reform' this from afar with hand-ringing and sending a few city people to do paper reports on it?
If you buy into the infrasturture there utilizing local players and putting a payroll behind new company directives...you may have a realistic chance to actually keep more cardinal tetras alive while doing business.
Otherwise, you are irrelevant to their world and only tolerated at best.
This is how the exporters in Manila regard MAC. They are tolerated to an extent.
Steve
PS. But, enlightened investment is not the same as safe, armchair quarterbacking...its really doing something!

 

[Anonymous]

To be more specific, I don't think numbers should be crunched on this forum concerning private business. The idea of green investment is defintitly fair game. Some LFS invest 500K-1m in their store. Donut shops spend $1m easy on set-up. To do it right, like Steve is talking, could easily be with this.

 

[Anonymous]

Mitch, Lee et al,
The solution is simple.
Instead of trying to fix and reform "other peoples businesses", especially those that don't want to be reformed...you simply invest in and buy your own business and run it according to ethical policy. Vertically integrating the chain of custody in ones own business is easy to do...But only if its your own. You can't force enlightenment on the wrong people and that has been the frustration of decades.
Nor can you reform lightweights, wannabies, neophytes and amatures...not to mention non aquarium fish savy pretenders and cons.

very well said

 

[clarionreef]

Thank you Vitz,
But I expect villification for it.
I re-read it and relized that although it was a shot from the hip analysis, it was accidently right on.
Amatuers trying to push reform on 'experts' against their wills is an amazing thing to promote.
There is nothing in the works that really earns the respect of divers like a 'boss' w/ a heart showing them and rewarding them to do the right thing.
This is new territory in the Philiipines and shows a way out of the morass.
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

In fact,
If I could find an enlightened investor, I could go do it...train our own teams, create a vertically integrated chain of in-house staff and cease this self-destructive quest to reform the trade for the good of all.
Any takers?
[assuming that the "good of all trainings" will never be supported by the industry or the NGOs that 'service' it.]

Steve

PS. I guarantee we would convert more cyanide fisherman in two months then MAC has in its entire existance.

Steve,

Frankly, your model for ecological reform appears to be more economically self serving than truly green. What you are describing addresses only one group of businesses, only one supply chain, only one small group of fisherfolk. I’ve read of no precedents of ethical supply chains being able to impact other areas with illegal collection activities in the long term. From what I’ve heard the few ethical supply chains that have existed in the P.I. have eventually disintegrated, net trained fisherfolk have backslidden, etc. While creating local “points of light” is a noble venture I hardly see how it will address other areas and the larger issue. Do you have examples, in the P.I. or Indo, where the success of net trained collectors has become truly self perpetuating and able to make inroads into other areas? If previous stand alone net training programs were so successful as to become “evangelical” would we even be having this discussion? I think not. Why should we expect future stand alone net training programs to be more successful?

Economic incentives only benefit one business and a small group of collectors and a very small part of the reef; true enforcement of environmental law benefits entire nations and larger parts of the reef.

Sincerely,
Lee

 

[Anonymous]

http://reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=45238

We are in areas where there are no PCSD and a strong BFAR to rely on. We have to change our methods and our concept in doing the net training program if we want it to succeed. Our focus and methods definitely has to change. We have to secure better funding to go the whole 9 yards and not do a half in and a half out kind of work. It is not net training anymore that will hold water and make these collectors stick to nets when so many factors are motivating them to backslide.

Steve,

I may be an arm-chair quarterback, but Ferdie definitely is not. Stand alone training won't cut it. Sounds like the 1,000 man training program won't be enough.

Sincerely,
Lee

 

[clarionreef]

Lee,
In many other countries now, the answer to getting fish collected right and in enough volume and variety is to contract with Filipino divers that were trained properly long ago.
Currently they are in demand and working in ...Saudi, Belize, Vanuatu...well, I have already listed them several times.
For purely business reasons, these divers are sent around the world because they are so effective and well trained. For purely business reasons they continue to inoculate others with the right methodology.
None of them work for MAC or anyother ineffectual group. My involvemnent in training these guys has done more to spread sustainable net collecting then anything you are aware of.
Steve
ps. None of them collect for me by the way. Only richer dealers can contract them and fly them around the world. I get the credit for this...they get the fish.

 

[Anonymous]

Lee,
In many other countries now, the answer to getting fish collected right and in enough volume and variety is to contract with Filipino divers that were trained properly long ago.
Currently they are in demand and working in ...Saudi, Belize, Vanuatu...well, I have already listed them several times.
For purely business reasons, these divers are sent around the world because they are so effective and well trained. For purely business reasons they continue to inoculate others with the right methodology.
None of them work for MAC or anyother ineffectual group. My involvemnent in training these guys has done more to spread sustainable net collecting then anything you are aware of.
Steve
ps. None of them collect for me by the way. Only richer dealers can contract them and fly them around the world. I get the credit for this...they get the fish.

maybe the divers are 'guilty' of some of our own behavior... :?

i would think that staying where they are to improve the immediate effects of the very thing they can now avoid would be a priority, either by diving themselves, or teaching others who can stay if they are forced to outsource their skills to support their families

steve-

any thoughts as to why this hasn't seemed (to me) to have happened ?

if the first batch of divers haven't stayed, what's to keep the next batch around? wouldn't most (if not all) of them then also go out to other countries where their skills are worth more?

 

[clarionreef]

Vitz,
In the other countries that appreciate the quality of Filipino divers, the nets are always supplied. Not bogus nets that satisfy only NGO people but the real nets that satisfy fisherpeople!
This is the same old truth told here a hundred times that recreational posters are tired of and yet a thing that divers can't do without!
The proper nets are the number one request of divers now. Since NGOs absolutely refuse to supply it for reasons of malfeasence or incompetence, the fact remains that without it, backsliding occurs!
In every country the boys are sent to, net catching remains the method and gets better and better. In Tonga, Vanuatu, Saudi, Belize etc. the nets are always supplied by the investing business person...case closed!
In Manila the nets have seldom been supplied despite the requests of divers.
This is where I part ways with the NGO community and earn the bad-boy reputation. This is where a group or a business proves wether or not its sincere.
No nets? No training? No progress!

Where do you think this thing is won? In the offices or the ocean?
Steve
PS. Yeah, 2 plus 2 is 4. I'm bored with that redundant fact as well...

 

[Anonymous]

why aren't the divers that go to the other countries contributing to the net issue for their fellow fishermen in their home country?

i would think that it's partly their moral responsibility as well, no?

i'm not calling into question the value, or importance, of net training

but i do have a problem with people who do get trained, and do get supplies, only to move to where it's 'easier' to earn a living, thereby removing the investment in education and supplies from the area where it's needed the most, and where it was intended to be used

why don't the fishermen have a net fund of their own?

The proper nets are the number one request of divers now

In every country the boys are sent to, net catching remains the method and gets better and better. In Tonga, Vanuatu, Saudi, Belize etc. the nets are always supplied by the investing business person...case closed!

have any of the more successful divers offered to contribute to the net funding as well, to help their fellows?

or, have they attempted to get ahold of the netting on their own?

 

[clarionreef]

Vitz,
The Philippine barrier net material is thin and flimsy.
The nets that everyone wants do not come from the Philippines...as there are none of the very expensive machines there that produce them.
These nets are supplied by the million and multi million dollar companies that contract the divers in the first place.
Of course these companies could send the same nets to their exporters in the Philippines . As they are sometimes MAC certified, they could also help 'put something back' if they wanted to. They could even send a 15 second e-mail to MAC and tell them here to get the nets...if they wanted to.
As the dealers in question may even own their own Hawaiian, Fiji and Philippine stations, there is no and has been no shortage of net knowledge. Every Hawaiian diver knows how to get the nets and always has. Every importer who deals with Hawaiian divers knows how to ask questions in English.
The American importers have always been close to this stuff and have smiled as MAC got cold...and then colder trying to figure it all out.

As far as poor Filipinos sponsoring the reform of the trade and usurping MACs proprietary rights over the issue and our destiny...they do.
As the net-diver trains his own kin in the craft the method spreads...hampered only by the non availability of the good stuff. The lousy stuff is used and excites no one. Still, the net catching divers in the Philippines are all using this junk that makes a number of them slide back.
Expecting a higher moral mission from poor Filipinos then the well paid dealers and NGOs is an odd notion.
Poor Filipinos divers send their money back home and become less poor. They are still poor.
AMDA has a NET FUND...to make the real barrier netting available...IN CASE PEOPLE AND DEALERS ON THIS SIDE WANT TO HELP BREAK THE LOG-JAM.
When regarding the staffing and training of other countries now, the investors always want to bring in Filipinos to do the job. Filipino divers are considered the saviours of countries other than their own.
Refusing to employ them in the Philippines to do the same is of course an obvious question for the million dollar business people and NGOs there.
But, this is a small question they'd have you believe. Divers are not people to employ for higher purpose....divers are to employ for self purpose. To minimize and not make more important, to cheat and pay low as others loot the issue and the income.
Nice trade huh? Fascinating how your favorite NGOs go along with it.
Steve

 

[clarionreef]

HEY PEOPLE,
THIS IS JUST A 'HOBBY FORUM' BUT HAS STRUCK A CHORD IN SOME SIGNIFICANT OBSERVERS;
Please bear with me:
There is nothing more difficult to take in hand, more perilous to conduct or more uncertain in its success then to take the lead in the introduction of a new order of things, because the innovator has for enemies all those who have done well under the old conditions and lukewarms defenders in those who 'may' do well under the new".
Machiavelli

 

[Anonymous]

cortez marine wrote:

Expecting a higher moral mission from poor Filipinos then the well paid dealers and NGOs is an odd notion.

why?

there are instances all the time in this country of poor people banding together to help themselves as a group

i find that statement abit patronizing towards the fillipinos

does being poor excuse one from trying to achieve a 'higher morality? does it prevent one from achieving the higher morality?

the premise that only others can supply the netting funding at all is one i have a slight problem with

 

[clarionreef]

Vitz,
If NGOs, the big exporters, the big importers and the trade in general won't do it, the poorest in the chain cannot be expected buy the Taiwan or Hawaiian netting, arrange the shipping of it, import it and hand it out.
An extra grand or two laying around for the greater good is a luxury the poorest in this industry simply do not have!
The exporters are Filipino as is the government and the Filipino NGOs in the Philippines.
Divers always ask for the good stuff because they cannot find it, get it, afford it or arrange it.
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

you're syaing that the 'exported divers' as a group cannot scrape together $3k in a year through their combined effforts?

and you've evaded my question, btw :wink:

i think that educating a 'native population' to always look to outside sources for help is a dangerous route to take

i'm not saying that help shouldn't be offered, or given

but i'd think that any group that was truly interested in helping their own people would also be able to find a way on their own

why does it seem to me that the fillipinos are sometimes portrayed as folk who are incapable of either helping themselves, or 100% dependant on the help of outside sources to achieve solutions to problems they can also help fix?

don't they have as big a moral responsibility to attempt to provide funding for their own moral issues as we may think we do?

 

[clarionreef]

Vitz,
As Filipino rich and comfortable people have not often looked back, [not to mention our people,] when making real money, the poorest of them do so even less.
They are poor. Famous in this thread only and poor 24-7.
No they cannot 'scrape' together 3k from their net income.
They make...300 to 500 dollars a month in this foreign legion service and they send it home to their families.
They represent the answer because of talent ...yet, they are poor.
ps. Besides, netting was always in the budgets of those pretending to deal with all this.

 

[Anonymous]

it would seem to me that setting up a non filipino owned collection station, staffed by fillipino divers, and supplied w/netting and supplies, should be a (relatively) cheap venture-and maybe more of a long term fix than 'just' supplying netting.

is there anything being done by the filipino gov't to prevent this from happening, or is it just lack of interest in doing so by potential candidates?

<playing devil's advocate>

why would i want to contribute to a net fund, if the divers trained to use it properly leave for other countries, once they have the skills to use it?

 

[clarionreef]

To be sure,
If someone set up an all- netcaught vertically integrated business in the Philippines, it would be most welcome...an example of private enterprise doing right.
Quite a number of foreigners have already done the setting up and the investing. But since they never burned w/ the passion to do it right, they generally just bought fish from whoever they could and focused on export sales rather then field development.
There are Australian, German, Americans exporting every week. Did anyone think them to be more ethical then the local exporters?
There are a scant few exporters giving it a go w/ all netcaught fish. They suffer from variety development because of the lack of successful training in outlying areas. Futhermore they suffer in a marketplace where their efforts to do the right thing went largely unrewarded.
They were used as 'deodorant' for the certified bigger players while those guys brought in lots more other stuff from other sources.
This is their own testimony and a subject of many heated debates in the past.
Supplying divers in the Philippines doesn't mean that they will take their nets and leave. Dozens have left. Thousands remain.
There are enough trained divers to 'work' other areas and bring in better variety now. Exporters as a whole however, are not very good at field development. They need new talent and new ways of looking at divers.
Now, divers with good variety can command more respect than before. Now, they can reward a good exporters with the better stuff. ALL netcaught from the Philippines is now possible if the right people do it.
But private business can always do it right if they want. Its the reliance on NGOs to get it right where a decade was lost. The NGO'S were 'no gos' and made people think they were taking care of it all for free.
Now we know it didn't get taken care of and the 'give them a chance' whine is getting old and dated.
Enlightened enterprise can do this right IF there were enlightened business people who really wanted to.
I guarantee you there are 10 investors more interested in investing in a coral farm then in an all netcaught fish business though. All the reefies contributing their 2 cents to this issue would change their tune if fish were their main focus.
Both netcaught activity and coral/clam farms together would be nice.
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

Steve,

Why not pry open the AMDA net fund and send some of the "sacred" netting over to lure back the trained collectors if this is the problem? Why hasn't the MSI netting material donated last year brought them back?

-Lee