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Was looking for EASI information and found a link to the program for the Marine Ornamental Conference 2004.

http://www.hawaiiaquaculture.org/MO04/program.pdf

The speaker list reads like a rogues gallery of "Industry Behind the Hobby" forum participants.

Is there even the remotest possibility that you reform folks will "each walk a mile in each other's shoes"; forgive past shortcomings and insults; and proceed forward with some kind of unity?

Or is MO '04 just going to be full of hot air and contribute to global warming?

Sincerely,
Lee
 

PeterIMA

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SciGuy, I have organized a panel discussion on March 1st which will (hopefully) identify needs to improve sustainability of the collection/transport process. A number of "reformists" are on the panel as is Mr. Paul Holthus of the MAC. Each panelist will speak for 10 minutes, then there will be a question and answer session. The moderator is Dr. John Parks. Hopefully, this will lead to better understanding concerning some of the issues discussed over the past year on Reefs.org.


Several weeks ago, I requested input under the 'Certification thread' from those on Reefs.org concerning what is necessary "to improve the process for a sustainable aquarium trade". So far, this has not sparked any feedback. I solicit your opinions concering what needs to be done and how it might be accomplished?

Peter Rubec
 

jamesw

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Lee - what's nice is that most of the folks here don't behave like children when you talk to them in person :) But get them on the internet...

That will be a topic of discussion for my panel discussion on March 2nd :)

Cheers
James
 

MaryHM

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Here's a similar, but different question.

What came out of MO '99 and/or MO '01???

I think you'll find your answer there.
 

dizzy

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I'm certain that regardless of the actual results, all the press blurbs will be spun positive. It should be interesting. Let's all try to keep a positive attitude. :D
 

clarionreef

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My stars,
Whats with all the armchair quarter-backing from the egg-head gallery?
Or as Frank Lallo so aptly put it, the "talk and post and do nothing bunch".
So bold...Kalk? You mean it may take an act of courage to type an opinion on RDO?
Actually, on second thought, you may have a point. There are a few sectors that have an extreme fear of public dialogue;
1] Those w/ nothing to gain by the revelation of how their fish are caught....and...
2] Those w/ nothing to gain by the revelation of how they did so little about it despite winning over the non involved egg-heads... won over w/ press releases about top-down theoretical changes induced by newly enlightened 'market forces'.

M.O. is not a trade conference people. Its largely a scientific one heavy on 'cultivation' people. They generally pretend to offer an exchange of their product for the fishermans product in one lecture after another.
If all goes well, in another 10 years, a full 6-8% of the fishermans list will be cultivated! By then, reefs will have declined by another large percentage, negating the gain.
If cultivation actually did displace the fisherman as the dream goes, the fisherman would then exert even greater pressure on the reefs as he does now. This point is lost on cultivators of course as the big picture is beyond their understanding. They are focused on grabbing a bigger slice of the pie the trade has created.
Though critical of the trades reality, there is a great envy of its produce.

My point is simply that the continuation of this industry in any form that we know it depends on the minority opinion that fisherman need to be converted wholesale to benign methodology.
Niether inadequate market certification bonuses for rich dealers nor aquaculture offers a way to do that. What they do offer is a piece of it which is enough to satisfy the egg-head gallery and the funders who have supported them egged them on.
The solutions to convert this trade have more to do with cultural anthropolgy and an appreciation of better social development thru enlightened technology transfer at the village level. There are thankfully presenters who will be adressing this subject area [as will I]. Though not in the scope of the empiracists and the cyber mob, this is where the most worthwhile breakthrus will occur in the coming years.
Sincerely, Steve
 

mkirda

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cortez marine":xk9ieivn said:
My point is simply that the continuation of this industry in any form that we know it depends on the minority opinion that fisherman need to be converted wholesale to benign methodology.
{snip}
The solutions to convert this trade have more to do with cultural anthropolgy and an appreciation of better social development thru enlightened technology transfer at the village level. There are thankfully presenters who will be adressing this subject area [as will I]. Though not in the scope of the empiracists and the cyber mob, this is where the most worthwhile breakthrus will occur in the coming years.
Sincerely, Steve

Steve,

I think it even has to be a more integrative strategy than this.
You need to get the local government officials involved on a basic level.
Like a good neighborhood watch group- The folks in the villages need to apply basic social pressures to those who fish illegally to get them to switch. Watersheds that contribute to poor water quality need to be improved by re-planting trees or bamboo. Mangroves need to be re-introduced, even in small areas, to help with the fisheries. Basic fish handling techniques need to be taught to reduce mortality from collection to transport. Nets and jars and the basic tools of the trade need to be introduced. Locals need to set up and protect no-takes zones, especially during spawning aggregations. Call them Bantay Dagat or whatever, but get them out there and get them to protect their own resources. Finally, get the police involved (and train them!) on what the law is and how to properly enforce it. If the funds to pursue criminals are not available in the budget, the funds must be found, even if that means that the fishermen have to help contribute.

Most of all, it needs to be introduced to the US market and MARKETTED as being done the right way. Maybe that is through certification, maybe it isn't. That may be for the US market to decide.

I haven't even started in with the whole assessment, CAMP process, and sustainability issues. These also have to be integrated within this...
There are so many important pieces to the puzzle...
However, getting them trained, having the price support in place so that they actually are making money, is probably the first and most important piece. Demonstrate the benefit (money), and the rest can piggyback onto this.

There, Peter, you have my opinion in writing. Make sure it gets brought to the attention of the board at MO'04.

Regards.
Mike Kirda
 

clarionreef

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Mike,
In order to prceed to any other level, the ability to enact 'simple' training of cyanide fisherman must be achieved first.
Failure to do that earns no one any points with fisherman.
All the outsiders agenda items are dependant upon this fundamental, initial performance.
Afterall, the inability to grasp simple notions such as netting materials, holding jars and basic collection and decompression methods insures that not much else will be respected. The "block" that foreigners have about this is testimony to how foreign they are to the fisherfolk.
This best sequence of immesion has rarely been attempted and the current situation validates that fact.
I find that local governments and fishery officials generally appreciate someone else doing their job for them for free and will support it.
The initial, basic training has been trivialized and glossed over so many times and for so long that poor strategy has been institutionalized in the thinking of funders and their NGOs.
I didn't figure out anything from afar. My education on these things came entirely from fisherman. If you listen to them and earn their respect...they will tell you what will work with them for free.
Success in the first village spreads to the next and they will want you to come in for local reason if what you bring is viable.
Steve
 

clarionreef

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So what do you think Lee?
Are we rogues toatally out to lunch here?
I'm always intellectually curious about better ways to reach the fisherman. If you or James have notions that can help, I for one would like to discuss it. This is the substance that can discover the keys to opening doors in other minds.
I still see it as a field thing not only because its where all the classrooms are for changing our trades divers but because its a proven formula for success!
The Filipino net fisherman now collecting in Saudi, Belize, Tonga and Vanuatu were all trained this way!
Its not theory...its history already!
Could you imagine the press MAC would've generated if this were 'their' achievement?
It works, its real and it can be amplified futher.
Sincerely, Steve
 

mkirda

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cortez marine":2ztp5iyz said:
Mike,
In order to prceed to any other level, the ability to enact 'simple' training of cyanide fisherman must be achieved first.
Failure to do that earns no one any points with fisherman.
All the outsiders agenda items are dependant upon this fundamental, initial performance.

As I said:

However, getting them trained, having the price support in place so that they actually are making money, is probably the first and most important piece. Demonstrate the benefit (money), and the rest can piggyback onto this.

I think we are saying the same exact thing.

Regards.
Mike Kirda
 

clarionreef

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Mike,
Although I agree that netcaught fish are worth more, assuming they are handled and cared for at least as well as the more experienced cyanide traders...this notion has alienated the exporters in both Indo and the Philippines.
If the fish didn't have to go thru the conventional system how would they be marketed?
Most exporters don't mind if they're netcaught as long as their cheap enough. :?
By increasing the price of the fish, we condemn this movement to finding exporters with a heart, a social conscience and that winnows down the field considerably.
Those that have paid more have generally suffered for it in the marketplace as they never had the variety that an 'principle challenged' exporter has.
There are enough handicaps in this endeavor. I can't see the logic in adding more.
If an enlightened exporter will absorb the small [by our standards] increase and pay the fisherman more...then wonderful.
If not...the fisherman still must become legal fisherman for other reasons.
Since net-collecting is efficient and capable of equal or superior totals, there is no reason to bribe fisherman to become trained...unless you can really enable the higher price paid to them. Promising more and being unable to deliver has already caused a lot of bad blood in this matter and needlessly so.
Placing too many conditions and qualifiers before accepting the training can be a serious impediment to getting the job done.

Anyone want to invest in enlightened enterprise in Bali or the Philippines?
I would if I had the dough...thats for sure.
Steve
 

clarionreef

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In fact,
If I could find an enlightened investor, I could go do it...train our own teams, create a vertically integrated chain of in-house staff and cease this self-destructive quest to reform the trade for the good of all.
Any takers?
[assuming that the "good of all trainings" will never be supported by the industry or the NGOs that 'service' it.]

Steve

PS. I guarantee we would convert more cyanide fisherman in two months then MAC has in its entire existance.
 

mkirda

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cortez marine":2te6j0z2 said:
Mike,
Although I agree that netcaught fish are worth more, assuming they are handled and cared for at least as well as the more experienced cyanide traders...this notion has alienated the exporters in both Indo and the Philippines.
If the fish didn't have to go thru the conventional system how would they be marketed?
Most exporters don't mind if they're netcaught as long as their cheap enough. :?
By increasing the price of the fish, we condemn this movement to finding exporters with a heart, a social conscience and that winnows down the field considerably.
Those that have paid more have generally suffered for it in the marketplace as they never had the variety that an 'principle challenged' exporter has.
There are enough handicaps in this endeavor. I can't see the logic in adding more.
If an enlightened exporter will absorb the small [by our standards] increase and pay the fisherman more...then wonderful.
If not...the fisherman still must become legal fisherman for other reasons.
Since net-collecting is efficient and capable of equal or superior totals, there is no reason to bribe fisherman to become trained...unless you can really enable the higher price paid to them. Promising more and being unable to deliver has already caused a lot of bad blood in this matter and needlessly so.
Placing too many conditions and qualifiers before accepting the training can be a serious impediment to getting the job done.

Anyone want to invest in enlightened enterprise in Bali or the Philippines?
I would if I had the dough...thats for sure.
Steve

Steve,

Dang English language can be so imprecise sometimes...

I am aware of the problems that occured when some fishermen were offered a better price and that didn't happen. I've also heard of instances where fishermen were jerked around mercilessly by the exporters... Ferdinand told me a story about how he was woken up by a group of fishermen at 3am once in Manila- Seems they had gone to deliver a shipment, only to be told that the exporter didn't need the fish, and could only offer a price that didn't cover their costs in gasoline to drive down there, let alone back. They left Exporter A without selling them anything, drove to Exporter B, only to find them up and waiting for them, telling them the same thing. About the third place, they realized that Exporter A had telephoned around to their competitors and told them to not accept the fish. So Ferdinand tried to help them out, calling around to all his contacts, trying anything he could to cajole one of his exporter contacts to accept these fish at a price high enough for them to cover their expenses and return home with some money for the week. Ferdinand told me back in October that this has happened many, many times.

This isn't always about getting a higher price- It is about getting a price that is fair, without having the screeners hit you up for bribes to accept more fish, or having exporters jerk you around. It's is paying 35 pesos for the fish you say you will pay 35 pesos for, not 10 pesos when the fishermen bring them down to your facility after you ordered them.

It is about treating the fishermen fairly and with respect.

I'm not talking about paying 70 pesos for a fish worth 10.

I also see how it works from an exporter's side. Marivi, for example, had a sign at her door limiting how many pieces she would accept on given species, as well as species she wouldn't accept at any price. If a fisherman showed up with 500 fish that she typically only sells 10 a week of, do I blame her for not accepting the entire lot? No. So some sort of agreement has to be in place between the two- That is what I was trying to say when I said that price supports should be in place.

I hope that is clearer now. :D

Regards.
Mike Kirda
 

clarionreef

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Mike,
Yes, the exporters are quite a group aren't they?
They have mostly signed the letter of commitment to MAC and this indicates their level of sincerity about it no doubt.
Steve
 

dizzy

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Steve,
We're still waiting for an answer to Peter's question. There may well be potential investors lurking so to quote the late John Lennon: "We'd all love to see the plan".
Mitch
 
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PeterIMA":5kr0s3jw said:
I solicit your opinions concering what needs to be done and how it might be accomplished?

cortez marine":5kr0s3jw said:
So what do you think Lee?


Peter and Steve,

I have to say that I was waiting for Ferdinand’s posting to the EASI thread before even venturing to write anything. Honestly, I believe there is more value in my asking questions and listening than in my making of many suggestions. However, I will venture to make an observation.

The one thing that has become very apparent to me is that market forces will not alone be able to significantly change the status quo of unethical collection. The monetary rewards that the U.S. market will support for those collecting in an ethical fashion simply cannot offset the ill-gotten-gains and benefits of the long-term entrenchment of the corrupt. The playing field must be leveled via rigorous enforcement of he laws that are in place in the countries of collection of the animals. That is, the cost of illegal activities, via fines, and imprisonment must negate the benefits of the doing business the old way. The effectiveness of all other reform programs hinge on the successful enforcement of public policy, and the rule of law at the point of collection.

That said, I believe even more strongly in the causes that you (Peter, Steve), Mike Kirda, and Mary Middlebrook champion: net training and livestock handling training programs; ready supply of low priced applicable collection (netting, etc.), holding and shipping materials; fair prices and honest compensation for the collectors; and the implementation of a legally binding and well enforced CDT program.

My question: is there anything that we in North America can do to unobtrusively help another nation successfully enforce their own public policy, and the rule of law at the point of collection? This seems like an egotistical question for an outsider to ask, but are there concrete things that we can do?

Sincerely,
Lee
 
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My question: is there anything that we in North America can do to unobtrusively help another nation successfully enforce their own public policy, and the rule of law at the point of collection? This seems like an egotistical question for an outsider to ask, but are there concrete things that we can do?

The million dollar question, I'm tagging along for the answer to this baby.
 

clarionreef

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Mitch, Lee et al,
The solution is simple.
Instead of trying to fix and reform "other peoples businesses", especially those that don't want to be reformed...you simply invest in and buy your own business and run it according to ethical policy. Vertically integrating the chain of custody in ones own business is easy to do...But only if its your own. You can't force enlightenment on the wrong people and that has been the frustration of decades.
Nor can you reform lightweights, wannabies, neophytes and amatures...not to mention non aquarium fish savy pretenders and cons.
Never...I repeat never, has investment in doing this thing right been done with the right people.
For what it takes to set up an average saltwater fish store, one could buy out a Manila exporter, set up 20 divers in the target country and start doing business as if you were doing it with your own staff divers in Hawaii, Tonga, Mexico or Belize. There are already dozens of companies that do what simply needs to be done in the Philippines.
Buy my company, save 75K for the 'vertically integrated' [ oops, thats NGO speak' ] staff divers and the field infrastructure and do business.
Enlightened business can achieve more w/ 175K or so then MAC, IMA etc could do with this issue for millions.
So, any takers?
Steve
 

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