DOA/Shipping and Handling in the Trade

[dizzy]

Lee,
I think those are some of the good guys. The problem really set in when the entire industry is switched over. That's when the MAC honor system shows us where the decline in moral values in this country has taken us. Lying, cheating, and stealing in America. The problem is that the 1% forces everyone that wants to keep certification to fudge and cover up. What a mess it will be.
Mitch

 

[Anonymous]

How big is Koko?

 

[Anonymous]

One more point to remember. The smaller retailer/importers most likely have lower mortality numbers than the overall industry's average. Please remember that the numbers observed may be greatly, and negatively offset by big box wholesalers sending animals to the large pet outlet chains. From what has been relayed here the the chains could take massive losses in their livestock departments and still be profitable due to dog food sales, for instance.

How many well run LFS's does it take to offset a single, poorly run, pet megaoutlet store?

I don't intend for this comment to have a large impact on the debate of whether existing numbers appear accurate in one direction or another. Just wanted to place this obvious thought out there.

-Lee

 

[Anonymous]

Lee,
I think those are some of the good guys. The problem really set in when the entire industry is switched over. That's when the MAC honor system shows us where the decline in moral values in this country has taken us. Lying, cheating, and stealing in America. The problem is that the 1% forces everyone that wants to keep certification to fudge and cover up. What a mess it will be.
Mitch

Mitch,

I agree with you. I had personal dealings with one of the original MAC certified retailers for several years. They didn't need certification to prove that they were a good and ethical store.

-Lee

 

[Anonymous]

bout 30-35 lbs

 

[Anonymous]

saddle would be tiny, and he'd collapse like a bug :lol:

 

[Anonymous]

Lee,
I think those are some of the good guys. The problem really set in when the entire industry is switched over. That's when the MAC honor system shows us where the decline in moral values in this country has taken us. Lying, cheating, and stealing in America. The problem is that the 1% forces everyone that wants to keep certification to fudge and cover up. What a mess it will be.
Mitch

Mitch,

I agree with you. I had personal dealings with one of the original MAC certified retailers for several years. They didn't need certification to prove that they were a good and ethical store.

-Lee

there are operations from all links in the chain that EXCEED mac guidlines, too

why should they need, or be forced to pay for, a substandard 'certification' ?

 

[MaryHM]

Mary, Why didn't you present these interpretations when this was discussed with Frank on line last year?

Because I didn't crunch the actual numbers until this week. What would it have changed anyway, Peter? Everyone was telling you those numbers were screwy last year when we were discussing it with Frank. You didn't want to believe it then and you don't want to believe it now. Seriously, if I had typed out all of this last year, what would have changed?

 

[Anonymous]

Lee,
I think those are some of the good guys. The problem really set in when the entire industry is switched over. That's when the MAC honor system shows us where the decline in moral values in this country has taken us. Lying, cheating, and stealing in America. The problem is that the 1% forces everyone that wants to keep certification to fudge and cover up. What a mess it will be.
Mitch

Mitch,

I agree with you. I had personal dealings with one of the original MAC certified retailers for several years. They didn't need certification to prove that they were a good and ethical store.

-Lee

there are operations from all links in the chain that EXCEED mac guidlines, too

why should they need, or be forced to pay for, a substandard 'certification' ?

Exactly. For what it's worth, I think MAC/MAMTI may be what is necessary to reform the Philippines completely. I just think they have no business telling any one stateside what to do. If they clamp down and control 100% of all marine ornamentals exports, why the need to require certification stateside?

 

[MaryHM]

Glenn, you know the answer to that. MONEY. MAC's plan is to be self funded through certified businesses paying them a percentage. If you only certify 30 exporters in the Philippines, that ain't near as much payola as certifying 2000 businesses in the US. Plus, over here is where the markup is. Higher cost means that "percentage" means more cash for MAC.

 

[Anonymous]

I understand that. But I don't see why we should subsidize reform for the collection of another countries resource.

 

[MaryHM]

That's because you aren't sucking off of the MAC teat. Believe me, they see plenty reasons. Your scenario assumes a certification that is only interested in creating a sustainable net caught industry. Unfortunately, we don't have any of those.

 

[Anonymous]

mac seems to be interested solely in getting a monopolistic hold on being the only valid certification industry-they couldn't care less about the industry, net caught or not, sustainable or not


if they get involved in 5-10 yr long 'projects of feasability/sustainability' investigations, they've accomplished exactly what they set out to do-guaranty a steady source of revenue for their 'backers/investors'

if they become the sole certifier accepted for import of the fish biz via a gov't enforced monopoly--

(which may be an underlying agenda of some of the backers (slow strangulation and cessation of the mo biz) ) they still get revenue during the strangulation process--

i think they have a mouse's chance at a convention for bolemic cats, for the latter option to pan out, and unless they manage to slip all of these legislative efforts in under the radar (now an impossibility), they'll be irrelevant in 5 yrs or less, possibly much less

then they'll have some really p.o'd backers to deal with

they simply bit off too much to chew, imo, the whole mamti thing is a last scramble to get what they thought they could get by greenwasdhing w/simple certification alone :wink:

you can almost sense the urgency/panic in the doc as it's written :wink:


they think it's a win win

(or their backers do)

hopefully, sooner than later, the very stores that are supporting mac now will finally wake up and smell the coffee

 

[Anonymous]

MAMTI, GEF Project Document, page 8

1.5 Objectives
The goal of the MAMTI project is to transform the marine aquarium trade of the Philippines and Indonesia to ecological and economic sustainability using conservation management and rehabilitation to ensure the health of coral reef ecosystems and their contribution to poverty alleviation and food security.

Specific MAMTI Project objectives are to:

• Transform at least 17% of the worldwide marine aquarium industry (21% of the Philippines and Indonesian markets combined) by achieving MAC Certification through the complete supply chain.
  
  Establish more than two dozen marine management areas (that include no-take marine protected areas and reef enhancement zones) that are managed by the local community and harvesting groups to their own benefit, approved and regulated by the local and national government.
  
  Transform the existing unsustainable market to one that demands sustainably harvested marine ornamentals by increasing global industry and consumer awareness of, and involvement in, certification and the benefits of marine ornamentals that are harvested in a manner that conserves global biodiversity.

I still don't see where anyone is twisting anyone's arm to join the MAC. Even if MAC exceeds their goal of integrating 17% of the overall market, and 21% of the Philippines and Indonesian markets into their certification plan, where is the monopoly? 17% of the overall market = monopoly? 21% of the Philippines and Indonesian markets = monopoly?

MAC has set goals by which thier funders will judge their program (MAMTI, section 1.9). If they fail to reach those goals, or if they reach their goals and no value is realized by the members of the supply chain MAC will be in trouble. Some of the expected changes based on the goals are reproduced below.

MAMTI, GEF Project Document, pages 19-20

• Educational workshops conducted at 150+ cooperatives
  
  50+ communities trained in multi-stakeholder ecosystem
  
  50+ communities are implementing certified Collection Area
  
  39,000 hectares of collection areas sustainably managed and certified
  
  Increased surveillance and enforcement of protected areas Reef enhancement / restoration activities conducted at all feasible location
  
  75 fishermen’s village cooperatives participating in conservation, management and rehabilitation activities
  
  9 local teams trained to carry out MAQTRAC and other monitoring methods
  
  150+ surveys carried out
  
  75+ training workshops conducted 2,300+ collectors trained in certifiable collection techniques 2000+ collectors certified
  
  ~770%+ growth in MAC Certified organisms from Indonesia and the Philippines (from approximately 7,600 export boxes per year
  to 66,000+ export boxes per year)
  
  2,800%+ growth in sales of MAC Certified organisms from
  Indonesia and the Philippines

Also it seems like the CCIF would want to keep close tabs on the money. People have wanted to see MAC accountable to someone. CCIF might that someone. If the program doesn't work tell CCIF, World Bank, etc.

-Lee

 

[Anonymous]

how many of mac's self proposed/imposed timetables/goals have been met to date ?

 

[dizzy]

[I still don't see where anyone is twisting anyone's arm to join the MAC. Even if MAC exceeds their goal of integrating 17% of the overall market, and 21% of the Philippines and Indonesian markets into their certification plan, where is the monopoly? 17% of the overall market = monopoly? 21% of the Philippines and Indonesian markets = monopoly?

Lee if you are willing to consider that perhaps MAMTI really did have something to do with hr4928 if would have to be considered arm twisting. They have the only fish in the game. Your not certified and you get zippo. If you look at the MAMTI's own published documents you will see where they plan on getting the airlines to ship only MAC certified fish, and that too forces everthing through them. Sure you don't have to become MAC certified. Not if you are completely self sufficient. I heard that MAC/MAMTI has already persuaded airlines in Holland to only ship MAC certifed fish. Has anyone else heard this?
Mitch

 

[K]

I dont have a clue about your percentages but I thought I would but in anyway because I collect local fish for a local aquarium and we would have a very high survival rate. Using seine nets or hand nets nearly everything should survive except for very young fry , which I dont collect as to many die and they are too much hassle to feed. I would also collect stuff by fishing with rod and line and if they are lip hoked most survive. Important thing is though that the quantities are small and travel time is low

 

[dizzy]

Glenn, you know the answer to that. MONEY. MAC's plan is to be self funded through certified businesses paying them a percentage. If you only certify 30 exporters in the Philippines, that ain't near as much payola as certifying 2000 businesses in the US. Plus, over here is where the markup is. Higher cost means that "percentage" means more cash for MAC.

Mary is right here. It too is all in the MAMTI plan. I believe MAMTI estimates there are 4500 retail stores in the US and Europe that sell marine fish. Their goal is to get about 30% of them and make them support the MAC and MAMTI. I think the MAMTI document says they plan on generating about $900k per year from the stores. It is all in the MAMTI documents. Haven't you guys been doing your homework? Begs the question as to what they plan on doing with the other 70%. How's the plans for that vaporizer gun going?

 

[dizzy]

Retailers
With respect to the retail market in the United States and Europe, we have made the following assumptions:
· Approximately 4,500 retailers in the US and Europe combined;
· Over a 5 year period, approximately 30% of retailers will make investments related to MAC
certification; and
· Average investment of $4,000.

 

[MaryHM]

$4000 for the chance to purchase non-existant MAC certified fish?? Where do I sign up??!! :roll: