Is it really fair to wholesale and retail livestock???
- Thread starter coralfarmin
- Start date
I posted in general then just add libbed to the first reply BTW :lol:
I did not mean to single anyone out ....though one just seemed to pop in mind..some others especialy in the keys do it
I just wanted to see what others thought on the matter before I try to build my own presence in the industry....
fyi
I said "wholesalers" in my first post....
I did not mean to single anyone out ....though one just seemed to pop in mind..some others especialy in the keys do it
I just wanted to see what others thought on the matter before I try to build my own presence in the industry....
fyi
I said "wholesalers" in my first post....
The reason I dont want to buy from them is cause "I WANT" to do the "CHERRY PICK'N" for my clients, if they cherry pick for their selfs first then there is far less chance of me getting the "BEST" for my own clients atleast some time....this is why I want to transship or cherry pick...or of course build business relationships with people I dont compete with as well
Sorry to keep this goin but can someone tell me the reason why some wholesalers wont sell retail...Im sure several have their own reasons...I just want someone to tell me why some have them and what they actualy are
I may have made a mistake in my judgement.
mabey the sites I read just were'nt up to date yet and they have restructured the way they do business..mabey I jumped the gun.mabey I understood it wrong.I realy dont want to make anyone look bad ...especialy if they are contributing members to usful info on this board....I realy should have contacted them before making assumptions(sorry)...please forgive me....why dont some sell to online retailers
all these dumb questions I have been asking are all being incorperated into a potintal business plan so please speak freely
is this ok by industry standards to retail and wholesale???
I may have made a mistake in my judgement.
mabey the sites I read just were'nt up to date yet and they have restructured the way they do business..mabey I jumped the gun.mabey I understood it wrong.I realy dont want to make anyone look bad ...especialy if they are contributing members to usful info on this board....I realy should have contacted them before making assumptions(sorry)...please forgive me....why dont some sell to online retailers
all these dumb questions I have been asking are all being incorperated into a potintal business plan so please speak freely
is this ok by industry standards to retail and wholesale???
I personally don't like dealing with wholesalers (of livestock or dry goods) if they sell directly to the public... the only exception(s) are wholesalers that have wholesale prices for resellers, and appropriate retail prices for their hobbyist clients. I can think of one hardware etailer whose products I can price match versus their own website, because as a dealer I pay less than the average schmoe ordering off their website.
Some wholesalers will only sell direct IF they don't have one of their own retail clients within a certain radius. I think that is reasonable too.
However, a wholesaler who will willingly bypass my business in order to sell direct, I'm not to keen on supporting (hypothetically... I am not citing an example). Retailers spend hundreds of dollars per week or more with wholesalers, versus the hobbyist who might spend a few bucks here or there... the retailer is the steadier customer, and IMO wholesalers should be more interested in keeping their steady customers happy.
As for wholesalers selling to etailers... being a retailer I'm biased, so I'd prefer my suppliers to sell only to retailers, but that's not my call to make. In one sense it's no different than my supplier selling to the LFS down the street.
Being on the east coast it's a peeve of mine that some wholesalers let jobbers or cherry pickers grab all the best stuff. Unless one can afford to go oneself, or hire a jobber, that eliminates the chances of getting any of the oddities. Somebody has to buy the brown corals... but it's nice every now and then to get a treat. I can say that those I deal with now, keep me happy with nice surprises in addition to the greens and browns... and I expect to get a mix of stuff. Not everybody wants the rare and unsual, and brown corals and no-brainers are the staple of the industry.
Besides, as Glenn has said on more than one occasion - if blue zoanthids were commonplace, nobody'd care or want them anymore!
Jenn
Some wholesalers will only sell direct IF they don't have one of their own retail clients within a certain radius. I think that is reasonable too.
However, a wholesaler who will willingly bypass my business in order to sell direct, I'm not to keen on supporting (hypothetically... I am not citing an example). Retailers spend hundreds of dollars per week or more with wholesalers, versus the hobbyist who might spend a few bucks here or there... the retailer is the steadier customer, and IMO wholesalers should be more interested in keeping their steady customers happy.
As for wholesalers selling to etailers... being a retailer I'm biased, so I'd prefer my suppliers to sell only to retailers, but that's not my call to make. In one sense it's no different than my supplier selling to the LFS down the street.
Being on the east coast it's a peeve of mine that some wholesalers let jobbers or cherry pickers grab all the best stuff. Unless one can afford to go oneself, or hire a jobber, that eliminates the chances of getting any of the oddities. Somebody has to buy the brown corals... but it's nice every now and then to get a treat. I can say that those I deal with now, keep me happy with nice surprises in addition to the greens and browns... and I expect to get a mix of stuff. Not everybody wants the rare and unsual, and brown corals and no-brainers are the staple of the industry.
Besides, as Glenn has said on more than one occasion - if blue zoanthids were commonplace, nobody'd care or want them anymore!
Jenn
Well anything that's rare is just that... rare - hard to come by.
I could take your statement one step further... given the current state of affairs in some places, if the industry is REALLY going to clean up its act, even some of the more commonplace specimens will become harder to come by - not necessarily because of populations, but because of a lack of appropriate harvest.
My point about "cherry picking" is this: For ever blue zoanthid colony, or purple acro, there are dozens if not hundreds of "plain" specimens collected. Somebody has to buy those, or they will end up wasted, either in wholesalers' or retailers' tanks. That will hurt the trade too.
In my experience, wholesalers who do not permit cherry picking by outsiders, share the wealth a lot more equally. That way the smaller or more remote stores stand an equal chance of getting the more desirable species, as somebody who can walk in off the street because they are located nearby to the wholesalers.
Jenn
I could take your statement one step further... given the current state of affairs in some places, if the industry is REALLY going to clean up its act, even some of the more commonplace specimens will become harder to come by - not necessarily because of populations, but because of a lack of appropriate harvest.
My point about "cherry picking" is this: For ever blue zoanthid colony, or purple acro, there are dozens if not hundreds of "plain" specimens collected. Somebody has to buy those, or they will end up wasted, either in wholesalers' or retailers' tanks. That will hurt the trade too.
In my experience, wholesalers who do not permit cherry picking by outsiders, share the wealth a lot more equally. That way the smaller or more remote stores stand an equal chance of getting the more desirable species, as somebody who can walk in off the street because they are located nearby to the wholesalers.
Jenn
Soon rare will mean more than 'hard to come by" (a Canadian expression that means difficult to find) in other words a skookum piece.
Rare will mean "prohibited" because harvest cannot be proven to be sustained in the environment. Today, if the price is right, you can get it.
Rare will mean "prohibited" because harvest cannot be proven to be sustained in the environment. Today, if the price is right, you can get it.
naesco":kya43ygo said:
And you think in your tomorrow, it won't be available if the price is right?
Price might go up, but overregulation will most certainly lead to a black market. Money talks.
Doesn't make it right, but human nature is what it is. Put a stranglehold on the trade, and people will find a way around it... just look at the "Clarion" debacle.
Jenn
clarionreef
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Jenns right,
It takes a lotta brown stuff to hold up the trade and the frogs you gotta kiss to get a prince [ or princess] can be many.
No fisherman can get just rare and one of a kind stuff. Thats simply impossible. Importers have to support them in many livestock areas besides the easy to sell areas.
The newly emerging class of cherrypickers mistake finding pretty pictures on the web with finding the real thing on the reef. Its not the same and never will be.
The price structure is based upon general across the board support for the common stuff as well as the cherries. Since cherries are instantly obvious, popular and coveted...it takes no talent to recognize them and even less to lust after them. They are for sale of course but as rewards for cusomers who support an importer in the off season as well as the good season.
How is this not logical?
As the world record holder for kicking out cherry pickers who try to sabatoge the ultra good selections for bonafide customers, I am most proud.
Besides...they are girly-men and just try to leech off the infrastructure paid for by others. Seriously though...we aren't anti cherry picker...cough...girly men ...so much as pro-regular customers.
.Steve
Theres two kinds of rare;
1] The super abundant clarion angel is the most common angel I've ever seen in its area. But...its rare in Chigago.
2] The ultra red Rhinopas scorpionfish is rare even in its critical habitat...
not because of people but because its...well a slow cooking bean and not so prolific.
It takes a lotta brown stuff to hold up the trade and the frogs you gotta kiss to get a prince [ or princess] can be many.
No fisherman can get just rare and one of a kind stuff. Thats simply impossible. Importers have to support them in many livestock areas besides the easy to sell areas.
The newly emerging class of cherrypickers mistake finding pretty pictures on the web with finding the real thing on the reef. Its not the same and never will be.
The price structure is based upon general across the board support for the common stuff as well as the cherries. Since cherries are instantly obvious, popular and coveted...it takes no talent to recognize them and even less to lust after them. They are for sale of course but as rewards for cusomers who support an importer in the off season as well as the good season.
How is this not logical?
As the world record holder for kicking out cherry pickers who try to sabatoge the ultra good selections for bonafide customers, I am most proud.
Besides...they are girly-men and just try to leech off the infrastructure paid for by others. Seriously though...we aren't anti cherry picker...cough...girly men ...so much as pro-regular customers.
.Steve
Theres two kinds of rare;
1] The super abundant clarion angel is the most common angel I've ever seen in its area. But...its rare in Chigago.
2] The ultra red Rhinopas scorpionfish is rare even in its critical habitat...
not because of people but because its...well a slow cooking bean and not so prolific.
I still dont follow......... just what is it that you all are suggesting is unsustainable? Corals ? Which ones?
unique color morphs like red and florescent green are not species...its just an abnormal color morph..
If the three albino turtles in my pond are removed .......but the remaining five thousand normally colored turtles still remain .........that does not mean the turtle population is unsustainable.
There is not one species of coral that is in jeopardy of over collection in any of the waters our industry collects . .......thanks to CITES. Even farmed coral and clams are heavily regulated by CITES. [ which is odd because they really dont even check to see if they are farm raised }
There is no shortage of corals ........its the permits that are in short supply {mostly due to bribery] not a shortage of available product.
Even if some of the more questionable lagoon corals like elegance, ever are found to be dwindling due to collection........CITES would step in and end permits for that species.
The measures in place to protect corals from over collection are as intense as any other harvested product in the world.
This notion that we might wake up next week and find that there are no more wild corals remaining on the reefs , because hobbyists placed them all in their tanks .......is silly.
unique color morphs like red and florescent green are not species...its just an abnormal color morph..
If the three albino turtles in my pond are removed .......but the remaining five thousand normally colored turtles still remain .........that does not mean the turtle population is unsustainable.
There is not one species of coral that is in jeopardy of over collection in any of the waters our industry collects . .......thanks to CITES. Even farmed coral and clams are heavily regulated by CITES. [ which is odd because they really dont even check to see if they are farm raised }
There is no shortage of corals ........its the permits that are in short supply {mostly due to bribery] not a shortage of available product.
Even if some of the more questionable lagoon corals like elegance, ever are found to be dwindling due to collection........CITES would step in and end permits for that species.
The measures in place to protect corals from over collection are as intense as any other harvested product in the world.
This notion that we might wake up next week and find that there are no more wild corals remaining on the reefs , because hobbyists placed them all in their tanks .......is silly.
IMO hobbyists are getting tired of the brown corals that were interesting ten years ago.
I think more and more people will gravitate towards dendros and other species which are not on CITIES. The demand for them will put pressure on wild stocks which in turn will end in their being put on CITIES.
For this reason,eventually everything will be on CITIES
BTW, for the first time I looked at my post count and now I know the problem. You guys are all novices.
I think more and more people will gravitate towards dendros and other species which are not on CITIES. The demand for them will put pressure on wild stocks which in turn will end in their being put on CITIES.
For this reason,eventually everything will be on CITIES
BTW, for the first time I looked at my post count and now I know the problem. You guys are all novices.
Kalkbreath":27dpt08m said:
I believe the industry will be required to prove that taking the desired species is not causing its numbers to decline, even if it is only in localized areas. Before John Brandt disappeared he said USCOP had been given a list of 400 species that probably shouldn't be traded. Sustainability was only one criterion used to get a species on the list. If the overwhelming majority of a species don't routinely live out (nearly) their natural lifespan in the aquarium they are subject to make this list.
Mitch
PS Do you think we should put JB's picture on a milk carton?
Here we go again .........Attempting to find moral ground instead of Scientific foundation .........dizzy":29un2a5m said:
Lets put your morals to a test .
What if I can prove that the average natural life span for MO fish out on the reef is less then three days? How many of the thousands of juvenile fish make it through the gantlet of death that is the reef?
See the average life span of reef fish goes something like this.......
100 fish hatch .......fifty are eaten their first day. That event cuts in half the average life span of the remaining fish right there. Next during the three months of Spring fifty percent of the first day survivors are eaten . So by the end of the first year less then one in a hundred babies make it to a first birth day. Whats the
average life span of those 100 fish even if the sole surviving fish lives to be twenty?
Any reef fish that survive a week in an aquarium has exceeded their average natural life span! :wink:
Ps I have been against the collection of adult fish for the vary reasons above for years.......
naesco":3tz7gonp said:IMO hobbyists are getting tired of the brown corals that were interesting ten years ago.
I think more and more people will gravitate towards dendros and other species which are not on CITIES. The demand for them will put pressure on wild stocks which in turn will end in their being put on CITIES.
For this reason,eventually everything will be on CITIES
BTW, for the first time I looked at my post count and now I know the problem. You guys are all novices.
Wayne, every half-educated hobbyist knows that Dendronepthea sp. don't survive in captivity. Unfortunately they are still collected, and those who are attracted by their beauty, and not by practicality, do still buy them... or should I say, "rent" them... Dendronepthea are temporary at best. Even if what you suggest is true, after a couple of failed attempts at them, most hobbyists would clue in and quit buying them. Perhaps someday the secret to keeping them will be unlocked, but for now, I and many others avoid them totally.
As for hobbyist growing tired of brown corals... hmmm well not every wet-behind-the-ears novice wants a purple acro or pink zoanthids. Most start out wanting something that is inexpensive and easy to keep. Things like brown zoanthids or button polyps, mushrooms and the like fit that bill. I've seen some very impressive tanks filled with so-called "drab" corals. It all depends on the hobbyist and his/her ability, budget and desire. I've also seen some amazing results from people with patience who buy or trade small frags of this and that and nurture those frags until they become big beautiful colonies. IMO there's a lot of satisfaction in that.
Jenn
Certain species can be over harvested in certain areas. When I was a lad back in the late 50s deer hunting was not allowed in Kentucky. The herds here had been nearly wiped out by over hunting. The local depletion did not mean the deer populations had declined in states like Colorado. The hunting ban here allowed the deer to recover, and today the herd is so wide spread and healthy it is hard to believe they were once nearly gone from this area. Wild turkey and elk have made successful recoveries too, but the elk hunt is very limited still.
There is a danger that some things that are truly rare will be wiped out for short term financial gain before we fully realize how rare they were. Rhinopias may be one example. Just because something has commercial value doesn't mean we should take all we can catch. How hard do you think it would be to wipe out leafy sea dragons if their harvest were not strickly controlled. Around here people want cheap stuff far more than they care about rare stuff. We sell 1000 common plecos to every zebra or royal. Saltwater is the same. A $25 yellow tang will go out the door 20 x quicker than a $90 purple tang. I've had a nice rock with blue zoos and other colors priced at $50 for a couple of months. People around here don't even realize they are unusual. Just leave the cherries on the trees and no one will be the wiser. People always want what they can't have. All I have to do to sell something is put it in one of my displays and tell people it is not for sale. Then they beg me to sell it and they pay top dollar. :wink:
Mitch
There is a danger that some things that are truly rare will be wiped out for short term financial gain before we fully realize how rare they were. Rhinopias may be one example. Just because something has commercial value doesn't mean we should take all we can catch. How hard do you think it would be to wipe out leafy sea dragons if their harvest were not strickly controlled. Around here people want cheap stuff far more than they care about rare stuff. We sell 1000 common plecos to every zebra or royal. Saltwater is the same. A $25 yellow tang will go out the door 20 x quicker than a $90 purple tang. I've had a nice rock with blue zoos and other colors priced at $50 for a couple of months. People around here don't even realize they are unusual. Just leave the cherries on the trees and no one will be the wiser. People always want what they can't have. All I have to do to sell something is put it in one of my displays and tell people it is not for sale. Then they beg me to sell it and they pay top dollar. :wink:
Mitch
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