Take your pick, Biopiracy or tank acclimated livestock?

[mkirda]

Are you going to tell hobbyists that they can't trade amongst themselves because that's bio-piracy?

"I" wouldn't tell them anything.

I'm bringing this up not only because I find arguments on both sides flawed, but because I think that further discussion is warranted.

What would you as a US-based farm do if your coral sources in Indonesia suddenly added this sort of EULA that prevented your farm from reproducing their coral, but didn't extend to hobbyists trading frags? They are protecting their revenue stream, in other words?

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[JeremyR]

I don't have all my eggs in one basket... and I like and do buy farmed acros from them... but since acros change so much from tank to tank, I think it would be incredibly difficult for them to even enforce such a policy and pretty unlikely it would ever take effect. More likely they would choose to not sell to people who didn't agree to their standards, which is every businesses prerogative. They would probably have to reach a production level where they were producing much more than they could find buyers for and were unhappy with the level in which their product was being sold before they would even consider such action.. I don't think that is really close to happening yet. If they could get around cities and mass culture quality acros, US farms most likely wouldn't be able to price compete anyways, and the point would be moot with the exception of a few highly sought after strains like the "oregon tort", etc. I just think it's pretty lame to accuse people who frag and grow corals that they legally bought with no strings attatched of "bio-piracy". Alot of my favorite mille strains came from the soloman islands many years ago, and there was a big gap where they weren't even producing, and are not producing at near the quality they were back then even now. There are some similar strains coming from bali "aquaculture" now, who is to say where X mille someone is growing and selling even came from? Are they going to start dna testing acros? Come on.

 

[clarionreef]

MIKE,
I HEAR WHAT YOU'RE SAYING BUT ISN'T IT TRUE THAT THE FIRST LINE OF DEFENSE IS THE FISHERIES DEPT AND GOVERNMENT IN THE ORIGINATING COUNTRY?

No fishery dept has to allow the export of fishes and marinelife that has a better value if held back for locals to profit. [ As if that would ever happen anyway.]
If we are our corrupt brothers keeper...do we have to engage a bio-piracy movement to protect that which was exported openly for the obsessed upon dollar?
Doesn't this foster a dependancy on foreigners to provide moral lessons for them to mimick? Or is it more like..."Yeah....give us who released it in the first place...more money".
Still, I could accept the notion better if there was a snowballs chance in hell of the fisherman getting some kind of benefit instead of the capital city general pork barrel.
The fisherman was the original owner and if the bio-piracy notion holds water then the gov't officials need to fight for him....This would change their tune immediately as they will not share with their own people.
Steve
Mexico for example provides an excellent example of holding back their bio-treasure. They have a program that limits its release only to those who can pay enough bribe money. This works very well and has kept dozens of companies and fishing villages from profiting from the fishes in their area.

 

[mkirda]

They would probably have to reach a production level where they were producing much more than they could find buyers for and were unhappy with the level in which their product was being sold before they would even consider such action..

Jeremy,

I can't parse out the meaning in this one... Are you saying that supply would have to exceed demand for them to put this sort of EULA onto the market?

I cannot see how this would benefit them in the least...
Far better for the collective farms to implement it when the supply is less than the demand. They could dictate the terms as it would be a seller's market.
Once it becomes a buyer's market, it becomes harder for a company or group of companies to do something like this.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[coralfarmin]

I said what if the mariculterist I purchase from agrees to let me captive propagate them ..ie we come up with a agreed on amount of profit they recieve from the captive raised frags as well
Dizzy
I dont care what just one man or one group thinks..I care what everyone who reads this crap thinks

 

[JeremyR]

Mike:

If they sell every last coral they export, and can't get enough cities permits to sell more, what purpose would it serve? I don't think in US propagation is really the competition for them right now, the wild coral head purchase is.. and again, if they didn't have to worry about CITIES, they could probably produce it much much cheaper than US aquaculture, which would again negate the need for litigation. You already get a better size per dollar on their 'aquaculture' as it is. The market will sort itself out.. some people get all excited about little frags grown in tanks that are of known values, and other people get excited about larger "frags" that are healthy, hold color, and cost the same or less than wild colonies. Plenty of buyers for both I think... I don't think the natives are going to get screwed by stateside "biopiracy" but more likely from their richer brothers running the coral facilities in their own country, as steve pointed out.

 

[mkirda]

I care what everyone who reads this crap thinks

What part is the crap, Coralfarmin'?

Am truly curious.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[dizzy]

I dont care what just one man or one group thinks..I care what everyone who reads this crap thinks

That group you don't care about happens to be the leading scientists and world authorities on the subject. Governments from many countries listen to their advice when deciding on new laws and regulations. I'm pretty damn sure they will do whatever they decide and not give a crap about what anyone here has to say. Now that don't mean I always agree with them, but I at least do have enough sense to know who has the power.
Mitch

 

[coralfarmin]

its all crap...about closed system farmers being bio pirates imo ,I want to know what hobbyists think as well not just big wigs

 

[coralfarmin]

I dont really care what the big wigs think, if they "think they can" try to stop me or anyone else who wants to farm coral in closed systems from doing it

it just shows how silly they really are if they think that..it's gonna happen

though I'm sure some could amuse us by bio pirate bashing and using other bio bogus words applied to the industry, agin just my opinion

 

[dizzy]

They can make it illegal to ship corals that didn't come from a certified facility. I actually think this will come to pass. That way they can make sure they get their taxes and their royality. It is going to be hard to make the case about how self righteous one is, if one is knowingly breaking the law.

 

[coralfarmin]

i'll be set up long before that happens I hope...then I'd just buy from mariculterists and other coral farmers when needed since that would be the only choice

 

[spawner]

How many cases of manufacturing (if you can call it that) jobs have been lost from developing countries to the US. We have be exporting our resources and jobs to developing countries for decades. So now we shouldn't allow aquaculture in the US because of this stupid biopiracy idea. Whatever, its a free market, if we can do it cheaper or better here, so be it.

 

[mkirda]

because of this stupid biopiracy idea.

What exactly is stupid about the idea that someone owns their resource?
Doesn't that idea underlie every idea that the free market economy is built upon?
Surely you are not suggesting that ownership is a flawed idea...

Surely we can rise this juvenile discourse where anything someone disagrees with is either 'stupid' or 'crap'.

Let's go with a hypothetical example here:
Let's say that coralfarmin' is discovered to contain a unique gene, one that makes cancer impossible to form in the human body.
This goes to the heart of the entire ownership idea - If there is anything that one particularly owns, it is their own body...
Once this gene is discovered, it is pilfered from a part of a blood sample, sold to a bio-pharmaceutical company, which then goes ahead and PATENTS Coralfarmin's DNA.
At that point, Coralfarmin's continued existance is illegal in the strictest sense of the word, although this point is unlikely to be enforced.
Said Bio-pharmaceutical company then markets a treatment to essentially eliminate cancer, all again based on Coralfarmin's now-patented DNA.

Would Coralfarmin' be due some sort of compensation for his patented DNA?

According to your current argument(s), the answer is no. You would be due NOTHING.

Does that seem right, or moral, or fair to you, Coralfarmin'?

Be careful how you answer.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[JeremyR]

I think you are stirring the pot because you want to be viewed as "somebody" and you want to be published, sortof like your odd lighting tests that made no sense in cloudy tanks at a trade show. Maybe you should post your own views rather than needling the people who post theirs. If you won't lay down your exact views on the subject, then quit pot stirring.

 

[mkirda]

I think you are stirring the pot because you want to be viewed as "somebody" and you want to be published, sortof like your odd lighting tests that made no sense in cloudy tanks at a trade show. Maybe you should post your own views rather than needling the people who post theirs. If you won't lay down your exact views on the subject, then quit pot stirring.

Jeremy,

I *am* somebody - I am a lowly hobbyist who isn't really that interested in becoming a part of the reefkeeping elite.

Thanks for the cheap shot about the lighting test. Classy, very classy. :roll:

My views I have articulated - You just have to read the posts, Jeremy.
I stated that I think both sides of the argument are flawed.
But the most IRONIC thing is that those most against the idea of Biopiracy are using the arguments of free trade against free trade, yet absolutely do not see it.

Is it too much to bring a high-minded question to the list?
Is getting beyond "it's all crap" and 'this is stupid' too much to ask for?
Or are you telling me that merely posing the question is 'pot-stirring'?

Mitch is right, you know. Even if you disagree with the biopiracy idea, you need to be paying attention. Not that this administration pays much attention to scientists, mind you, but other countries do. And this could potentially have an effect on the trade.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[JeremyR]

I've seen you say that both sides are flawed, but I haven't seen you really lay down what you think the final answer would be if you were the one in charge of making policy.

I think "crap" is a fully suitable word to describe the situation. You can't even prove where various strains come from that are in the trade now, and you can't really prove where the foreign farms get their strains from (what's to stop them from collecting in fiji, and growing it in bali, and calling it bali, and "trademarking" it)? Besides, if they sold you all the stuff originally with no strings attatched, you can't reverse legislate what you can do with it 10 or 20 years down the road. That is what I think is "crap".

Sure, people have a right to do what they wish with their "resources". But what they don't generally have is the right to tell you want to do with said resources AFTER they have sold them to you. Whether you want to look at it historically or not.. this has how renewable resources have always been treated.. live coral is no different than anything in the horticultural world *IF* it's fully renewable and growable. To "patent" or stop people from reproducing their product, they would have to genetically engineer it to be different, apply for and recieve a patent, and then defend the patent in court. The vast majority of SPS have a pretty wide distribution, so a "village" doesn't really "own" a species anyways, several nations could lay claim to it. It's a big can of worms that you can't apply a simple term like biopiracy too, and again, piracy eludes that you stole something.. it's hard to steal something when you apply for permits, get the permits, get an invoice, pay the invoice, and repeat the process hundreds and hundreds of times.

 

[JeremyR]

And yes, it was wrong of me to bring up the light thing cheap shot.

 

[Anonymous]

Jeremy and Coralfarmin,
I'd love to see your faces when the guy who owns the mineral rights to your front yard decides there is oil, gold, iron or whatever there 8O

Now, that's stirring the pot.

 

[JeremyR]

That's also a completely different situation and doesn't really apply.


About the only thing worth anything under my house is... hmm..

It's swamp a hundred yards from a protected bay.