Good netting/bad netting

[Anonymous]

Greetings from Tonga.
I spent yesterday talking with 5 PI divers who are working/training in Tonga. We talked a lot about nets.
They consider the 'bad' 1/2 inch netting to be disposable, saying it only lasts for a week. The say the good 1/2 inch 'good' netting lasts for years. They say they can't get the the 'good' netting in PI very often, and when they can, the exporters who have it (donated or otherwise) sell it to them at 5 or 6 times the cost of the 'bad' netting - so they continue to buy the 'bad' netting because they can't afford the outlay for the good netting.
They say they would rather use the good netting.

 

[dizzy]

Huh! 8O If one lasts for years and the other lasts only a week. How can they afford to buy the cheaper one? Your post makes no sense. :?
Mitch

 

[Anonymous]

Could it be to keep utter control over the distribution of materials used to collect MO by the exporter, whether it be cyanide or nets? It's like credit cards, it's a way to keep them in debt

++++POST EDITTED FOR RIGHTY'S CURRENT VIEWING CAPABILITIES+++++

 

[Anonymous]

Huh! 8O If one lasts for years and the other lasts only a week. How can they afford to buy the cheaper one? Your post makes no sense. :?
Mitch

You seem to accept that these people can just take out a loan and pay for good netting.

What boat did you just roll off of?

 

[dizzy]

Huh! 8O If one lasts for years and the other lasts only a week. How can they afford to buy the cheaper one? Your post makes no sense. :?
Mitch

You seem to accept that these people can just take out a loan and pay for good netting.

What boat did you just roll off of?

Do the math. If they have to buy new netting every week they spend as much in 5-6 weeks as several years of the good netting would cost. And for your information wise ass I donated to both Mary's fund and AMDA's in an effort to help these people out. I also watched as Steve tore up the cheap netting in front of Mark S. and John B. at the industry meeting at MACNA last year. I don't understand why MAC has done so little to remedy the situation.

 

[dizzy]

One more thing that really bugs me. If the fishers need the barrier netting so bad why did Mary and Mike Kirda arrange to get all that hand netting? :? It seems like the one great effort to help was misdirected. MAC is not the only one who made mistakes.

 

[Anonymous]

I can't vouch for what MACis doing to help and I can't help but be a wise ass but if you're living day to day then buying something 5-6 weeks in advance is just impossible without a subsidized loan.

As long as these people are not given quality nets they are forced to buy the cheap ones.

You should be asking "why are they not being given quality nets with my money" instead of besmirching them for not putting up the cash (that they don't have) for a good net.

The sooner you understand that your money didn't go where it could do the most good the better off everyone will be.

 

[dizzy]

But Andy please explain how they can afford to go to Tonga for training if they can't afford to buy the netting. And if they are already using nets then why do they need the training at all. But then again nobody ever said it was net training they were there for.

"The sooner you understand that your money didn't go where it could do the most good the better off everyone will be."

Everyone must be in well off then, cause I realized that many moons ago.
Mitch

PS
I must of missed the post that explained what the training was all about.

 

[Anonymous]

Everyone must be in well off then, cause I realized that many moons ago.
Mitch

I concede. You win. I wish our money had been better spent. The real problem is that many will be less likely to donate next time.

Peace.

 

[mkirda]

One more thing that really bugs me. If the fishers need the barrier netting so bad why did Mary and Mike Kirda arrange to get all that hand netting? :? It seems like the one great effort to help was misdirected. MAC is not the only one who made mistakes.

Mitch,

First of all, the hand netting was/is not available, period. This is what we were told was needed more, so this is what was sent.

The barrier netting thing is probably overblown. Steve will probably vehemently disagree with this. However, when I spoke with a collector about the netting difference, this is what I was told.

Paraphrased as was mostly in Tagalog... :wink:

We can get the this netting easily in Manila. It breaks easily, but it is also cheap and easily repaired. The problem with the other netting is that we constantly worry about it. If it breaks, we cannot replace it. When it breaks, we are back to this netting anyway. {diver shrugs}

He admitted he'd rather use the better stuff. But he was happy to make due with the available stuff. What he was VERY EFFUSIVE about was the fact that the handnetting was easily available now. The guys eyes widened when Ferdinand told him that I was one of the ones responsible for getting the netting over there, and the diver thanked me several times. I was then told by the diver that they hadn't seen the hand netting in the Philippines for something like ten years. To have it appear was like manna from heaven. His words, not mine.

Point here is, given the choice between upgrading barrier netting or giving them netting that was needed and was not available, the choice was made to provide them with the needed and unavailable netting. The decision was made in consultation with the divers and Ferdinand. If you think Ferdinand made a mistake, take it up with Ferdinand. Judging from the diver's response, I don't think it was a mistake. The pushnets make from the so-called 'invisible net' work far better than those made with the gauze or nylon mesh netting.

Will also say that this conversation was made with more than one collector listening in. Not one of them others piped up to contradict anything said, with most of them just nodding their heads and saying "Oo, sige." (yes, that's right.)

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[dizzy]

Mike,
I don't doubt what your saying, but why would Righty start this thread making such wild statements? Why would they take Filipino divers to Tonga to train them instead of just training more local Togan diver/collectors? Much of this doesn't make sense to me. :?
Mitch

PS
And who is paying for all this?

 

[mkirda]

Mike,
I don't doubt what your saying, but why would Righty start this thread making such wild statements? Why would they take Filipino divers to Tonga to train them instead of just training more local Togan diver/collectors? Much of this doesn't make sense to me. :?
Mitch

PS
And who is paying for all this?

Have no idea whom is paying for this other than the exporter.

I have personally never seen anyone collect with 3/4" netting. That would destroy most smaller fish (if they didn't swim through it) and would scar many medium sized fish. Maybe tangs for food... Otherwise, this size would not normally used for collection of marine ornamentals.

3/8" netting or 1/4" netting would be far more common sizes to use.

As far as bringing Filipinos to Tonga, this isn't all that uncommon. PI fishermen are working all across the planet these days. One diver I spoke to had worked in six or seven different countries collecting fish. His efforts are to support nine relatives. His recent job had been to watch over a floating cage for food fish growout, where he earned a nice salary of $53.57 per month. It isn't hard to tempt someone overseas when he could easily double or triple his salary...

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[dizzy]

As far as bringing Filipinos to Tonga, this isn't all that uncommon. PI fishermen are working all across the planet these days. One diver I spoke to had worked in six or seven different countries collecting fish. His efforts are to support nine relatives. His recent job had been to watch over a floating cage for food fish growout, where he earned a nice salary of $53.57 per month. It isn't hard to tempt someone overseas when he could easily double or triple his salary...Regards.
Mike Kirda

It just seems like it is taking jobs from the locals. If you're thinking in the short term, it might make sense, but looking to the future it seems like training Tongans would be a better. If the Filipinos are better divers it seems like they would show them up in the training and create hard feelings. Perhaps not. Who knows?

 

[Anonymous]

I wish people would stop being so aggressive an assumptive so we could just have a discussion. If you don't understand something someone is saying I think its better to ask instead of making accusations.


MY BAD. I said 3/4, but I meant 1/2. I'll edit the initial post when I have tiem.

They said they didn't buy the 'good' netting because they didn't have enough money to buy it, but they did have enough money for the 'bad' netting. Its like needing a car, knowing you will save money in the long run by buying a hybrid car, but only having enough money to buy a gas car. You buy what you have the money for.

The cant afford to come to Tonga for training. They came to Tonga becase they got a job in Tonga. The person who hired them is paying them.

The training is two part. Make sure they all (Tongan and PI) know how the nuances of using the net, and training them to minimize or eliminate damage to corals even when using nets.

The PI divers are in Tonga because their skills are needed now.

The 1/2 inch barrier netting is for bigger fish, not for little fish. Different nets are used for different fish.

 

[Anonymous]

BTW,

I'm stuck on a boat with 3 PI divers tomorrow, any questions I should aske them?

And Gresham - no more pictures. I am on snail internet!

 

[clarionreef]

We're in the same hotel., restaurant, wharehouse and boat every day actually. Then there are another 4 that we deal with as well.
Anyone want to know more from these guys?

They have 18 years of cyanide fishing and an equal amount of net collecting experience and hail from different areas.
The testimony about all the history of this thing is sometimes hard for even us to understand. The dozens, and soon to exceed hundreds of hours of testimony is sometimes amazing to behold.
The thin netting is no doubt better then poison. The rub is the number of divers that wouldn't stick with it because it tears so easily. For lack of alternative, many have gone back to poison fishing. That just cannot make the spider web netting defense council happy.
True, as poor fisherman they have suffered a lot and so why not continue it? Is that the logic?
Steve
Our guys were so happy to finally get some 3/8's inch 2 lb netting and the basic handnetting. Both were lost to them for 12 years. We spent all day yesterday sewing them up.
All this netting is so cheap...and so much cheaper then dope....
Its a shame to leave them with either thin, fragile netting or cyanide.
No responsible company would do that..and the one sponsoring them is stepping up and making the ideal...real.

 

[dizzy]

Well this whole story has been leaked piecemeal and quite possibly laced with exaggerations. If one is to believe what you guys are saying, and to also give Mike Kirda the benefit of the doubt, it would appear that the fishers are simply telling you guys what they think you want to hear. The truth may actually lay somewhere in between. The common theme that comes from all sides is that the fishers are exploited by the exporters. It sounds like some good things are happening and I wish it success....... but when some of the people involved have been so good at criticizing the efforts of others, they can well expect to have the microscope applied to their efforts as well. Good luck to all involved. It is good to see people actually doing something besides talking. Just try to be a little more thick skinned.
Mitch

 

[dizzy]

They came to Tonga becase they got a job in Tonga. The person who hired them is paying them.

"Filipino collectors are sought after to establish collecting stations everywhere to compensate for the inability of the business class to train locals better.
If anyone sincere and half way capable in the water works with the locals, you find how wrong it is to take a white office bound businessmans racism for gospel."
Steve

Please explain what is different about this effort, from previous failures.
Mitch

 

[mkirda]

Well this whole story has been leaked piecemeal and quite possibly laced with exaggerations. If one is to believe what you guys are saying, and to also give Mike Kirda the benefit of the doubt, it would appear that the fishers are simply telling you guys what they think you want to hear. The truth may actually lay somewhere in between.

Mitch,

The simplest explanation is that the collectors themselves have their own opinions, and that they will vary from others. In my case, the divers would have no idea what my opinion was on the various types of barrier netting (as I never expressed it), and I am only reporting what was told to me as accurately as I can. I simply listened, translated, made sure the translations were accurate as possible, then wrote things down as soon after they were said as possible.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[dizzy]

Mike,
That's fair enough, but from your earlier post you say............"Paraphrased as was mostly in Tagalog...

We can get the this netting easily in Manila. It breaks easily, but it is also cheap and easily repaired. The problem with the other netting is that we constantly worry about it. If it breaks, we cannot replace it. When it breaks, we are back to this netting anyway. {diver shrugs}"

Why is the cheaper netting so much easier to repair than the good netting?
Is seems to me the stronger netting would be just as easy to repair if it did break. You sure you got the translation right?
Mitch