Good netting/bad netting

[naesco]

I am a little confused.

What is the best netting for them (or that they prefer)


1. the netting Mary Middlebrook sent which was donated by hobbyists.

2. AMDA netting

3. The netting Steve has been recommending

4. the netting MAC is distributing.

5 None of the above.

Thank you very much for taking the time to post

Wayne

 

[mkirda]

Mike,
That's fair enough, but from your earlier post you say............"Paraphrased as was mostly in Tagalog...

We can get the this netting easily in Manila. It breaks easily, but it is also cheap and easily repaired. The problem with the other netting is that we constantly worry about it. If it breaks, we cannot replace it. When it breaks, we are back to this netting anyway. {diver shrugs}"

Why is the cheaper netting so much easier to repair than the good netting?
Is seems to me the stronger netting would be just as easy to repair if it did break. You sure you got the translation right?
Mitch

Where did you get that cheaper netting is more easily repaired?

The point they made was that all netting needs repair, and beyond a certain point requires replacement. If there is no replacement available, they were back to the cheaper netting anyhow.

Mike

 

[dizzy]

Where did you get that cheaper netting is more easily repaired?

Here: "We can get the this netting easily in Manila. It breaks easily, but it is also cheap and easily repaired. The problem with the other netting is that we constantly worry about it. If it breaks, we cannot replace it. When it breaks, we are back to this netting anyway."



This quote makes it sound like they don't even attempt to repair the expensive netting. They just go back to the cheaper stuff.
Mitch

 

[mkirda]

Where did you get that cheaper netting is more easily repaired?

Here: "We can get the this netting easily in Manila. It breaks easily, but it is also cheap and easily repaired. The problem with the other netting is that we constantly worry about it. If it breaks, we cannot replace it. When it breaks, we are back to this netting anyway."



This quote makes it sound like they don't even attempt to repair the expensive netting. They just go back to the cheaper stuff.
Mitch

I read and re-read and read again, just to be sure... But I still don't get how exactly you read this 'between the lines' as it isn't what was said.
Anyway, be that as it may, yes, they will repair any netting they can, but once it is beyond a certain point, they must replace it. If the better netting isn't available and the cheaper stuff is, that is what is used.

Is that clear enough for everyone?

Mike

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Greetings from Tonga.
I spent yesterday talking with 5 PI divers who are working/training in Tonga. We talked a lot about nets.
They consider the 'bad' 1/2 inch netting to be disposable, saying it only lasts for a week. The say the good 1/2 inch 'good' netting lasts for years. They say they can't get the the 'good' netting in PI very often, and when they can, the exporters who have it (donated or otherwise) sell it to them at 5 or 6 times the cost of the 'bad' netting - so they continue to buy the 'bad' netting because they can't afford the outlay for the good netting.
They say they would rather use the good netting.

Rigthy,,

Just to clarify that the nets exporters get in the PI are NOT donated, they buy them.
Also, to underline that those collectors confirm that nets are available in the Philippines, exporters are getting the right material for their collectors. The smart collectors buy the good netting that last as they say...years.

Reparing nets is part of the fisherfolk work. Trawlers have to repair their multifilament nets very often.

 

[naesco]

Greetings from Tonga.
I spent yesterday talking with 5 PI divers who are working/training in Tonga. We talked a lot about nets.
They consider the 'bad' 1/2 inch netting to be disposable, saying it only lasts for a week. The say the good 1/2 inch 'good' netting lasts for years. They say they can't get the the 'good' netting in PI very often, and when they can, the exporters who have it (donated or otherwise) sell it to them at 5 or 6 times the cost of the 'bad' netting - so they continue to buy the 'bad' netting because they can't afford the outlay for the good netting.
They say they would rather use the good netting.

Rigthy,,

Just to clarify that the nets exporters get in the PI are NOT donated, they buy them.
Also, to underline that those collectors confirm that nets are available in the Philippines, exporters are getting the right material for their collectors. The smart collectors buy the good netting that last as they say...years.

Reparing nets is part of the fisherfolk work. Trawlers have to repair their multifilament nets very often.

Jaime please see my earlier post
We had posted four months or so ago on the type of netting required.
Has this problem now been addressed?
Thanks
Wayne

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Greetings from Tonga.
I spent yesterday talking with 5 PI divers who are working/training in Tonga. We talked a lot about nets.
They consider the 'bad' 1/2 inch netting to be disposable, saying it only lasts for a week. The say the good 1/2 inch 'good' netting lasts for years. They say they can't get the the 'good' netting in PI very often, and when they can, the exporters who have it (donated or otherwise) sell it to them at 5 or 6 times the cost of the 'bad' netting - so they continue to buy the 'bad' netting because they can't afford the outlay for the good netting.
They say they would rather use the good netting.

Rigthy,,

Just to clarify that the nets exporters get in the PI are NOT donated, they buy them.
Also, to underline that those collectors confirm that nets are available in the Philippines, exporters are getting the right material for their collectors. The smart collectors buy the good netting that last as they say...years.

Reparing nets is part of the fisherfolk work. Trawlers have to repair their multifilament nets very often.

Jaime please see my earlier post
We had posted four months or so ago on the type of netting required.
Has this problem now been addressed?
Thanks
Wayne

Wayne,

Fish collection in the Philippines is an activity that has been taking place during the last three decades.

Readers have been misinformed and misled about the netting issue. Exporters in the Philippines DO have access to nets, those nets are "sold" by exporters to collectors (nothing is for free). As Righty stated, collectors from the PI told him that they have access to "good" netting bought by exporters.

We are talking about monofilament nets that are working on and around coral reefs. For those of you that have had the opportunity of diving, know very well how sharp are coral edges, you can cut yourself if you are not careful enough. The same happens to nets, down there are currents, even good collectors have to repair their nets after fishing operations. A good collector knows how to take care of his nets.

Readers have also been misinformed and misled about the competence and qualifications of fisherfolks trained by previous programs in the Philippines. Righty has had the opportunity of getting in contact with the Filipino collectors who are now in Tonga working/training, those collectors
got there thanks to previous work from NGOs.

 

[dizzy]

Anyway, be that as it may, yes, they will repair any netting they can, but once it is beyond a certain point, they must replace it. If the better netting isn't available and the cheaper stuff is, that is what is used.

Is that clear enough for everyone?
Mike

That's great Mike. I knew they would, but given the level of comprehension expressed of late in this forum, I felt some clarification was in order. Still after watching how easy it was for Steve to tear the cheap netting I find it odd they don't seem to care which net they get. And Jaime seems to think they can scrape together the money for the better netting and that the exporters have it readily available. Three completely different versions of what the netting situation is like over there. :?
Mitch

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Anyway, be that as it may, yes, they will repair any netting they can, but once it is beyond a certain point, they must replace it. If the better netting isn't available and the cheaper stuff is, that is what is used.

Is that clear enough for everyone?
Mike

That's great Mike. I knew they would, but given the level of comprehension expressed of late in this forum, I felt some clarification was in order. Still after watching how easy it was for Steve to tear the cheap netting I find it odd they don't seem to care which net they get. And Jaime seems to think they can scrape together the money for the better netting and that the exporters have it readily available. Three completely different versions of what the netting situation is like over there. :?
Mitch

Mitch,

You could try to get a direct answer from the Philippines Tropical Fish Exporters Association www.ptefa.org

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Mitch.

I meant www.ptfea.org

The connection is difficult but you can try.

 

[dizzy]

Readers have also been misinformed and misled about the competence and qualifications of fisherfolks trained by previous programs in the Philippines. Righty has had the opportunity of getting in contact with the Filipino collectors who are now in Tonga working/training, those collectors
got there thanks to previous work from NGOs.

I'm confused again. Are the Filipino divers being trained? Or are they doing the training?
Mitch

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Readers have also been misinformed and misled about the competence and qualifications of fisherfolks trained by previous programs in the Philippines. Righty has had the opportunity of getting in contact with the Filipino collectors who are now in Tonga working/training, those collectors
got there thanks to previous work from NGOs.

I'm confused again. Are the Filipino divers being trained? Or are they doing the training?
Mitch

Mitch,

The Filipino divers are training other collectors in Tonga as many other Filipino collectors have been training collectors in other countries where this commercial activity is taking place.

Other contact to ask directly about netting/exporters in the Philippines is [email protected]

 

[dizzy]

Jaime,
I lifted this from the trainings begin thread:

Hi folks,
A joint Tongan-Filipino training is now underway in Tonga.
We are witnessed by RDO's very own moderator, Righty.
We are being chronicled by a photographer he brought along.
We are monitored by Tongan fisheries and an Australian Aid fisheries consultant.
We are training both Tongan and Filipinos together

 

[clarionreef]

Getting it straight;

1. The cheap, thin 1 lb netting is not sold by the exporters in Manila as claimed as it is easily obtained in Binondo...ie China Town directly by the divers themselves.
2. The coveted 2 lb netting is not available from the exporters at all as claimed....nor from Mac.
This is the material that was supplied to Les village in Bali by AMDA for 100 fisherman there.
3. The coveted 1/6th inch and 1/4 inch handnetting is only available to a select few exporters. There is plenty in storage still but there is no mandate nor program to hand it out to all concerned.
This handnetting material was also sent by AMDA to two other exporters and the Palawig fishermans association.


So, the entire history of the reform plank of the exporters in general has been to claim credit for the cheap netting that divers buy directly themselves. They have not seen the real deal in a long time. The guys we're with haven't had either in 12 years....[ which was the last of a stock I handed out after training.]

There is a treasure trove of information to be had by 'liberated' divers who have been fortunate enough to escape the system that never worked for them.
They are all over the globe now and working with the 2 lb netting of course.
When making a show of things, any netting will do I guess. But when actually working underwater....the choice is always the stuff that tears only 1/10 as much...and frees the divers up to work more efficiently.
Keeping the real fish collecting netting out of the fishermans hands when running up million dollar programs based on the topic of industry reform is er....ummm....unkind I think.
Steve

 

[mkirda]

Still after watching how easy it was for Steve to tear the cheap netting I find it odd they don't seem to care which net they get. And Jaime seems to think they can scrape together the money for the better netting and that the exporters have it readily available. Three completely different versions of what the netting situation is like over there. :?
Mitch

Mitch,

How hard it is to comprehend, really?

I have a car, a Honda Civic. I could afford an Audi TT if I really wanted one. But in the end, a car is just a means of moving from one place to another. The Civic does the job well enough, even if it doesn't have the visual panache of the TT.

Given the apparent sometimes/somewhere availability of the better netting, one would expect that the divers themselves are capable of making the cost/benefit analysis themselves. One could also judge from this that they are making a rational choice, that they judge the existing supplies of the better netting too expensive, and that they therefore purchase the lesser priced, lesser quality netting. Similar to my Civic vs. TT analysis. Do they need the Chevette or the Corvette? Much as they might like the Corvette, given their own cost-benefit analysis, they are choosing the lesser-priced, lesser-quality netting.

And again, this is only a small sample of the estimated 1000+ MO collectors in the PI. Four collectors (my sample) isn't enough to base the preferences of the entire MO trade, nor is it made out to be. I reported what I was told. Jaime and Steve have both been out of the Philippines for a while. Netting is Steve's issue, his pet project, and he believes in it passionately. Given this, you might expect him to press the issue harder. I don't personally disagree with him trying to get better netting in the hands of the collectors - to me, it seems an admirable goal. But the fact that the Philippines has produced net-caught fish without the better netting should tell you that they can and will make do with what tools they have available.

Again, I don't expect Steve to agree completely with what I have said, and I am OK with that. Not all fishermen walk lock-step on this issue - And that should be the take home message here.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[mkirda]

2. The coveted 2 lb netting is not available from the exporters at all as claimed....nor from Mac.
3. The coveted 1/6th inch and 1/4 inch handnetting is only available to a select few exporters. There is plenty in storage still but there is no mandate nor program to hand it out to all concerned.
This handnetting material was also sent by AMDA to two other exporters and the Palawig fishermans association.

Two other things that should be pointed out here:

Unless my source is/was outright lying to me, an order was placed for the better barrier netting from Taiwan and will be arriving in PI shortly. I cannot confirm this fully, but if the information was true, barrier netting will no longer be an issue in a few weeks time. Time will tell.

Secondly, Steve personally sends handnetting material to at least one exporter he deals with, who then sells it to the fishermen that they deal with. This is strictly business for them.

The donated netting is/was never being sold, and is being freely distributed to fishermen on an as-needed basis both in Indonesia and the Philippines by Ferdinand Cruz, exactly as Mary had originally intended and had spelled out since day one of the Net Fund.

After I had sent a 100 feet of each size in Feb. '02 to the Palauig Association on my own dime, I have to wonder what they are doing with the AMDA netting... They had enough from me to supply them for about five years... Even with that big swathe Lolita Ty cut off...

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[clarionreef]

The thin netting is no doubt better then poison. The rub is the number of divers that wouldn't stick with it because it tears so easily. For lack of alternative, many have gone back to poison fishing.
Mike,
I agree with your post.
But, this is my real concern.
The inferiority of a material that creates the backsliding effect.

If the 2 lb netting is finally on the way....hooray! Thanks for the agreement at last.
It only took a few years of pressure.
Now, the handnetting material will also flow...may we assume?
Publishing the name on RDO of the barrier netting place in Honolulu...near MAC hdqrs. on Dillingham Blvd. only took 2 years for them to act on it!
Oh well, better late then never.
Steve

 

[clarionreef]

Lookie here what I found a few years back....circa March 2004

Marine Ornamentals is over...finally.
On Monday...AMDA donated 100 barrier nets of the right kind to the village fishermans association in LES Northern Bali.
The director of the association...Ambrosius Ruwinjaharto was effusive in his thanks and said "He could go home now"...before the conference began.
Village fisherman know the importance of the proper Taiwan barrier net [ .23 mm diameter twine] and are getting enough to supply their divers who have all been using a material with only 50% of tinsel strength.
Now the barrier netting joins the handnetting and for the first time in a decade a village has both kinds at the same time!
Bundles of the barrier netting cost $250.00 each for 300 feet.They were 6' high and are cut into two 3' high lengths. Then the lengths are cut into 20 ft pieces per diver.
AMDA bought enough for 100 divers with the AMDA NET FUND...WHICH IS NOW DEPLETED.!
There are 60 more divers in need of the net soon as possible.
That would be $500. more. If anyone wants to get real and contribute more then words...heres the chance!
Buy a bundle and supply a village!
Click on amdareef.com and donate if you will.
Sincerely, Steve
PS There is so much that went on...and will wait for a report tomorrow. Its geting late. [Whats all this about pins and needles?]

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MaryHM


Joined: 02 Dec 1999
Posts: 2264
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posted: 06 Mar 2004 14:44 Post subject:

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Welcome back, Steve. Glad to hear about the netting. One question- I thought it had to be bought in 1000' rolls in order to make it worthwhile for the Taiwan factory to run it? Can you buy it in smaller quantities now?
_________________
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Legal Disclaimer: All statements are strictly the personal opinion of Mary Middlebrook.

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MaryHM
{squat}


Joined: 02 Dec 1999
Posts: 2264
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posted: 06 Mar 2004 14:45 Post subject:

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I went to the AMDA site and don't see anything about donations on the home page. Got a link?
_________________
Owner of Marine Specialties International- Import/Wholesale

Legal Disclaimer: All statements are strictly the personal opinion of Mary Middlebrook.

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cortez marine
{squat}


Joined: 15 Nov 2001
Posts: 1827
Location: San Jose, Calif.
Posted: 06 Mar 2004 17:02 Post subject: BREAK-THRU ON NETTING PRICE

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Hello Mary,
Something exciting happened [to me at least].
I was very happy to find a source of 1/2" monofilament netting AND that the price had fallen 50% for already imported material! Apparently the volume of live bait casting net fisherman has risen to the point that competition and economy of scale have brought down the price.
The upshot is that it is now cost-effective to buy it not in bulk but by the small bundle. This way anyone can contribute and make a significant difference rather quickly. A club or individual could sponser 10 or 30 collectors by contributing a 100' bundle [ $85.00] or a 300' bundle [$250.00].
Yes...we need an AMDA NET FUND link but for now anyone can send donations to the AMDA NET FUND which is seperate from the general account to the AMDA address.
The Taiwan negotiations for netting supply went nowhere for several months as they demanded a huge minimum run which would've cost 15K!
The Hawaiian dealer already imports large amounts of the netting and is a long time customer. For now...that was just wonderful and allowed our Bali friend to go back to Bali with more then words...ie. the netting he so dearly wanted from a conference in a fancy setting.
The netting supply was hidden...
on the same street that MAC has its Honolulu headquarters on...only 2 miles down. We drove past it to get there and then past it again on the way back to the hotel. Instead of a field trip to the Waikiki aquarium or SeaLife park, our contingent took a field trip to the netting source and got all 'geeked up' on the variety of material found there..
The source is open now and I think we will be doing business for a long time.
Supplying net fisherman is a better and more intelligent strategy then certifying the facilities of cyanide fish dealers.
Steve

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MaryHM
{squat}


Joined: 02 Dec 1999
Posts: 2264
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posted: 06 Mar 2004 21:46 Post subject:

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That is good news, Steve! You really need to set up a paypal account or something similar. If you want donations, it's the only way to go. People are too busy these days to sit down, write a check, and mail it through the <gasp!> real post office!!
_________________
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Legal Disclaimer: All statements are strictly the personal opinion of Mary Middlebrook.

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vitz
Reefkeeper


Joined: 16 Jun 2002
Posts: 9358
Location: R.I.P.Koko
Posted: 06 Mar 2004 21:51 Post subject:

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Quote:
The netting supply was hidden...
on the same street that MAC has its Honolulu headquarters on...only 2 miles down. We drove past it to get there and then past it again on the way back to the hotel.


hehe

kudos Steve
_________________

 

[clarionreef]

Jaime wrote;
"The Filipino divers are training other collectors in Tonga ....???"

Is that indicative of the credibility of your contributions here? Why would you say such a thing? And how on earth would you know?
Why would you write such a mis-truth?
Why would you say something so silly?
What you speak is with forethought or is it just knee jerk nay-saying?
2 Tongans and I just out collected three Filipinos yesterday on the first day in the water.
We spent all day out there today again.
We worked on the decompression of fishes.
The Filipinos are here to be trained futher before they immerse into this thing as well as the Tongans.
Neither are being trained by each other. If they were I can come home now.
Steve
PS. I'm caught a clown trigger in todays venue.
What did you do?

 

[Anonymous]

Mitch,

The Filipino divers are training other collectors in Tonga as many other Filipino collectors have been training collectors in other countries where this commercial activity is taking place.

Other contact to ask directly about netting/exporters in the Philippines is [email protected]

Jamie,

Since you are concerned with people in this forum not spreading incorrect information, I thought you should know that the Filipino divers in Tonga right now, with the company I am consulting with, are not here for the purpose of training collectors in Tonga. They are here working, being trained on decompressing fish before bringing them to the boat and how to be even more aware of not damaging coral or the enviornment while working.
If you have any questions about what is actually going on on the ground right now, I will try to answer them while I am here.