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SeanF

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Business is Business is Business. Whether small business or big business it is all the same. I think you all are fooling yourself if you don't think Walmart has between 300-700% markups.

Business is all about taking advantage of what you can get and make money on. Sell it for the maximum amount you can while still maintaining the volume you want.

We started selling online also about a year ago and I am going to bet by the end of this year we will sell more Rio Seio pumps than the good Dr. I did this by making good business decisions and balancing profit with being able to move the product. Now that I am moving the volume in one product I can approach other manufacturers about products and have a better chance of getting the kind of price that I will need to be competative in an online marketplace.

There is a major basic problem with the co-op of stores besides the fact that someone would always feel like they were getting the short end of the stick. This problem is that on most products you can negotiate better prices through a wholesaler than buying direct. For example I talked with a fish food manufacturer who shall remain nameless about buying direct and was told that the starting discount with a minimum $1500 first time buy in would be 32% but because the wholesalers that I use have a long term relationship with them and have proven that they can move a large volume of product they get about a 50% discount. I had already talked one of them into a 35% discount on the product so the only reason to buy direct from the manufacturer would be to start the relationship and try to prove that you can sell enough volume to move up in the discount market.

The online marketplace is a much more cost involved place to sell. Sure you can set up a website and sell things but how do you generate sales. You have to establish a lot of good word of mouth advertising by spending lots of advertising money to generate your first set of customers and then making sure that they are happy with their experience so they tell everyone they know and so on and so forth.

We take care of customers and go above and beyond for all of them but after awhile you figure out that some people don't care about the service and those people personally I quit making the extra effort. For our regulars that are loyal and appreciate us going the extra mile they continue to get the great service.

Fosters and Smith does not get people started in the aquarium hobby. PetsMart and PetCo are the big ones in getting people into aquarium by local level marketing and availability. I will guarantee that the good majority of people get started in this wonderful hobby one of two ways: the number one way is to see someone elses aquarium and fall in love with it, or the second would be to have a good experience with an aquarium as a kid.

It all comes down to one simple fact and that is that this is a business that many people are very passionate about. Most of the people that start shops are hobbyists who think that they can do it better than the existing stores. The problem is that most of them know nothing about business. The sad part is that most of them also know nothing about the real part of the business and that is getting the livestock in. Most of the livestock that they have ever owned has come from another store that took the time and losses involved with producing a good quality product to take home. These people have never added 100 corals to a tank that just shipped in and tried to keep it stable and have rarely had any experience with disease control in fish. This is why the majority of new fish stores fail. This is a very difficult industry because we deal in things that are and must remain alive. Anyone can run a business that deals in dry goods then it is all about what you pay and what you can sell it for.

My last point is that stores need to emphasize the benefits of buying the product from their store versus spending less to buy it online. I had one person that I sold something to online that summed up my main point pretty well when I told him that the defective item that he bought was going to have to be returned to me so that I could ship him a new one. He said that it(a ESU Coralife Powercenter) was running the lights on his tank on the good timer because one was broken and that he didn't want to have to be without it for a week and have to pay to ship it back because he could have bought it locally for what it would cost him and wouldn't have been without it for a week. The shipping on the item to him was only about $5 so in order to save 5 bucks he shipped the item in. So make sure your customer service is good. The quality of what you sell is high and emphasize that your prices after shipping may be a little higher but if you have a problem not only could you be without your item for awhile but you might have to pay more shipping also making the item more expensive. Internet sales are going to continue to increase so we have to protect ourselves. When those customers come in, you know the ones, and play twenty questions about an item you sell and then don't buy it from you kindly point out to them that one of the things you get when you buy things from me is the know how on how you use what you are buying and that if they are not going to buy it from you they didn't pay for the advise. They will more than likely stomp out and throw a hissy fit but they were just going to take time away from customers that pay for your advise.
 

Piero

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Kalkbreath":1igh5gbv said:
I also know that people have been claiming that the collection of marine life for the trade harms the marine enviroment .....but never have met a man who could back it up with anythig other then token examples.

Perhaps there is no hard objective data, I don't know. but I'd still 'put my money' on the fact that the trade is not beneficial to reef communities.

And I question the notion that reef communities would be 'overlooked' by science and researchers if the hobby wasn't here to 'popularize' it.

Kalkbreath":1igh5gbv said:
I also know how misguilded most green folks are.
Now that sounds like a miguided blanket statement that reflects a tendency towards unrealistic stereotyping. Stereotyping is a completely natural cognitive behavior based on previous exposure and experience, but we all need to reign it in sometimes. But I do agree there's PLENTY of unrealistic and misguided environmentalists out there.

Kalkbreath":1igh5gbv said:
To give up our autos and return to an "agrarian society" one that is based on agriculture as its prime means for support and sustenance. would actualy harm the planet ten fold compared to todays technology based society. Imagine if every family in the USA (100,000,000) owned a horse for travel , a few cows and chickens and a few acre farm in which they self supplied their food needs. Do you realize just how much land it takes to grow the food to feed just the horse and cows? Talk about global warming and C02 production!

Agrarian society? yep, that sounds like an extremely unrealistic idea....to put it nicely. (releases tongue)Actually that sounds absurd...where are you getting that idea from? Sounds like it came from those misguided environmentalists you mentiond.

Kalkbreath":1igh5gbv said:
Currently the United states is a C02 sink and our forrests and farmlands take in more green house gasses then we emit with our SUVs.
Possibly. I'm skeptical though. Where did you hear that?

Kalkbreath":1igh5gbv said:
Lastly I have the largest selection of farmed clams , farmed Acros and farmed rock in the world( I think) So I'm not your best target for Culpification.
perhaps you do Kalk...but that's a big claim and you'd need some objective data to back it. But I do applaud anyone's expressed intent to claim that title.
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Piero

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Rascal":1fy0rz06 said:
The truth is that the strongest argument is that reefs around the world are far more vulnerable to global warmimg, industrialization, deforestation, yada yada yada. If we can increase awareness by maintaining our reef tanks, I would suggest that that is a positive.

good point Rascal. I often tell myself that the awareness and education that the trade brings to the 'masses' could arguably justify its impact on wild habitats. But it's a debate i often return to in my own mind.
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clarionreef

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He writes;
And I question the notion that reef communities would be 'overlooked' by science and researchers if the hobby wasn't here to 'popularize' it.

or...in the case of my own limited 24 year experience with science and researchers...
...if the hobby wasn't there to anchor an NGO, a career, a grant, a career advancement or an endless history of double billing, double dipping, perks, plane rides, per diems, free hotels, restaurant and bar tabs .
They would ask for cash after reef surveys and "research" performed by the collectors and I w/ the so called researcher sitting in the boat day after day.
They would re-work approved budgets to suit their own desk-bound lifestyle and they would delete vital aspects of the projects leaving certain failure as the result.
They love the imagined money pot this trade creates and loath it at the same time. They have blurred the line between environmentalists and carpet bagging charletons and clearly need to be certified.
Yes...certification of the regulators, researchers and 'scientists' seeking to cash in on this trade is a good idea.
After a career of of suffering this most of the time, I admit to having been prejudiced by the idea of regulation by "enlightened inferiors."
From my perspective, semi-scientists and reformers have missed nearly everything on the aquarium/reef impact drama and have simply made hay out of the observations of real players in this drama and done a huge diservice to the cause by packaging it in terms to suit themselves rather then solve the problems..
Steve :D
 

mark@mac

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Piero wrote:

"Perhaps there is no hard objective data, I don't know. but I'd still 'put my money' on the fact that the trade is not beneficial to reef communities. "

Piero,

Have you ever been to a reef community/fishing village?

Many of these I have personally worked in have few other alternatives at this point for thier livliehoods. This trade/hobby should and hopefully will become more supportive in preventing the undervaluing/exploitation of these limited resources.

I firmly believe that this trade/hobby could be a very sustainable in most regards and also very beneficial to the reef comminities and the reefs.

Respectfully,

Mark
 

clarionreef

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Marks right,
Putting the fisherman out of work will only excabberate the war on the reefs.
They will not go quietly into the night and they will not collect welfare or unemployment. Nor will they gain subsidies not to collect or have their permits bought out by the government.
They will go back to the reefs and do what they do best...take stuff off of it by any means neccessary.
There is a wonderful potential of foreign involvement in the commercial system and that is the right to have a say so over how our product is rendered. We have of course been mostly lazy or uninvolved until MAC came along and claimed to have it handled.
The "let MAC do it" fantasy made even the semi-conscious among us lazy at the thought of having it all handled....cheaply by someone else.
Now we know it is not being handled and the issues are only solving themselves thru glacially slow, cultural osmosis.
These fishers have already proven they can change for 20 years and have trumped the achievements of MAC in the process.
Others can change and will change.
As an agent of that change, we in the market country have hardly handled it well. Nor have our previously mentioned, "representatives".

We aquarium folks are both the judge of environmental propriety [ theory ] and the guarantor if environmental inequity at the same time.[ practice ]
How do we live with our two-faced selves?

Aquaculture as an option is way too little too late on too few species.. .
It is generally not even based where the fishers live...and it employs other people. Usually city people.
Besides, its largely a different industry. The coral trade industry.

Training fisherman is easier and cheaper then all the rest of the options.
Training fisherman gets us into a good news media theme, handling reform, holding and packing reform...diving safety reform and of course....the light touch upon the reef methods of the Australians and the tropical countries that do it right.
Stopping the trade without alternatives....will help kill the reefs as surely as will leaving it with the status quo.
Pro-active and responsible engagement has yet to occur on a serious scale except in some commercial venues....led by private commercial mindsets.
This achive on RDO has chronicled them already many times. They show the way out.
The aversion to this practical training reform is what surprises me.
I can only surmise that it calls for a different skill set then the current crop of "reformers" have...and therefore not taken seriously.

Sincerely,

Steve
 

Piero

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hehehe...slight misunderstanding...sorry i should have been more specific. I wasn't referring to bipedal hominids, Iwas referring to the aquatic ecosystems.

NON-human reef communities.
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Rascal

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I think there would be little disagreement to the contention that if ALL of the pressures to natural systems by all mechanisms induced by this industry/hobby were removed, those natural systems would still be in a state of decline.

My feeling is that there are many more pressures with much greater consequence to reefs than this industry, and those other pressures need to be prioritized. Being a Floridian, I think the ill effects of coastal development and water diversion are of much greater concern...and that truly is not just because it's in my back yard.
 

clarionreef

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This trade can anchor re-education, re-training , provide incentives and show the way! It can reach a tipping point of numbers converted to achieve a cascade of reformed practices.
It has been achieved already...and reversed!
It can do it again.
Its not doing it because of the children sent to do a mans job, but it could.
Steve
 

Piero

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i certainly agree with that Rascal.

There are plenty of more severe nonpoint sources of pollution that cause more harm than the trade.

It's just that (to me)the trade is a particularly ugly direct pointsource. I aknowledge i've probably misprioritized it relative to the fctors you mentioned.

Having spent 6 years in Miami myself(2 years at UM for marine science, then switched to business for some strange reason) I also know what you mean in the context of SoFla.
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mark@mac

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Piero wrote:

"hehehe...slight misunderstanding...sorry i should have been more specific. I wasn't referring to bipedal hominids, Iwas referring to the aquatic ecosystems.

NON-human reef communities."

Piero, I think WE, (bipedal hominids) are part of the aquatic ecosystems.
One Ocean - One Global Community...... We gain essential life giving sustenance from it. We affect its health, as it affects
ours.
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Rascal wrote:

I think there would be little disagreement to the contention that if ALL of the pressures to natural systems by all mechanisms induced by this industry/hobby were removed, those natural systems would still be in a state of decline.

"My feeling is that there are many more pressures with much greater consequence to reefs than this industry, and those other pressures need to be prioritized. Being a Floridian, I think the ill effects of coastal development and water diversion are of much greater concern...and that truly is not just because it's in my back yard."

I agree 100%!

I also believe that properly managed, this trade/hobby can be incredibly valuable educational/economic components of coral reef conservation.
I've seen the wonderful impact discovery of life never seen befiore has on people young and old. This is creating awareness and instilling caring and thirst for more knowledge.

Steve's right as well. The users of the reefs in other countries generelly do not have ANY other alternatives to SURVIVE, and will resort to what ever they can to feed thier families.

WE COULD DO THIS IF MORE COULD WORK TOGETHER. By "do this", I mean we (the aquarium trade/hobby) could be significantly instrumental in contributing to coral reef conservation, education while also improving the quality of life for so many currently being exploited.

Mark


 

Rascal

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The population on this earth has gone from 4.9 billion to 6.6 billion in just 20 years. People need to subsist one way or another, and if you live on an island, you look to the reef. Kinda sad that we take that for granted.
 

mark@mac

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All,

My apologies for contributing to the shift in topic on this thead... After submitting my last post I noticed the thread title.... We've shifted back to the conservation topic and I am sorry to see that has disappeared as of late.

We won't need to worry about e-trade, "who needs lfs?", or diver direct fish if the trade gets shut down for lack of action with regard to conservation and sustainability.

Mark
 

Rascal

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Maybe the current direction is off topic, but consider that the thread has been idle since February. I don't see that as a bad thing.
 
A

Anonymous

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No worries Mark - Thats the nice thing about RDO, coversations are allowed to flow as they naturally should..

Anyway.. Yes, there are other issues that make it a good target for action by higher powers too....

NOAA ISSUES BULLETIN ON INTRODUCTION OF NON-NATIVE RED SEA BANNERFISH INTO FLORIDA WATERS
http://www.noaanews.noaa.gov/stories2006/s2672.htm
 

Rascal

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A lot of banter...no substance. Where are the facts behind NOAA's assertion? Where were they located, when, how many? Just curious (for now).
 

clarionreef

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Steve,
Can you bring me up to speed on this statement...

Quote:
"It has been achieved already...and reversed! "

In the early 90's there was a momentum built up on the net training movement and divers were clamoring for it.
The primary motivation of the divers wanting it was to get off the cost of cyanide/cost of bribes to stay out of jail cycle.
This was engineered as a pro-diver move...not a western environmental one.
Once, the divers needs are adressed, we can insert our own.
A momentum developed with several hundred cyaniders trained and months of support and follow-monitoring behind it.
On my last day in the Philippines on a training gig in '93, 2 jeepneys full of divers I never knew came to our exporters compound to try and get the netting materials they never could get on their own.
I told them to pressure their exporters for it as I was all out.
That was a bad answer as they knew their buyer would never do something like this...and actually procure and sell them something less lucrative then cyanide.
The NGO group I worked with simarly refused to supply nets so the momentum was lost and then reversed and divers went back to cyanide w/ a renewed sense of pessimissim about reform.
Steve
 

Rascal

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Thanks Steve. I'm familiar, to some degree, the work that you and others did there. I just wanted to be certain we were talking about the same thing.

Regards,

Butch
 

Piero

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"Where are the facts behind NOAA's assertion?"

where? Terrapin staaaayaayytion....
sry, GratefulDiver's avatars are throwin' me back to a time when I was full of optimism.

I'm really beginning to think that we're reaching a bit too far when we begin claiming that the hobby is a noble device that significantly inspires the masses to care for reef ecosystems through exposure....that line of thought may help us justify our hobby of course, and allows us to claim some noble intent...but I'm no buyin it completely. There are other ways to inspire....pop in a hidef documentary on reef life, view it on a 50-inch plasma or an omnimax theatre.... and you have the perfect inspirational tool.

How about taking kids to the public aquarium to inspire them, or showing them Coral Reef Adventure on the BIIIIIG screen. The hobby isn't that significant in fostering enthusiasm for conservation. All I had to go off of was Mystic Aquarium and some old Jaques Cousteau shows in the 70s....I didn't see a reeftank until 1983...but I was already obsessed by 1978.

just thinkin...not that the hobby isn;t a source of inspiration for people...but idunno if we can use that for any justification purposes...
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