Borneman's Reefkeeping Magazine article

[dizzy]

The internet and e-tailing are here to stay. As a business owner, you either adapt and survive or you don't. Quite frankly, I don't see e-tailing hurting good LFS's as much as e-tail hurting the big box chains. Big box stores compete on price for the most part, but internet vendors with lower overhead costs should be able to beat them. Good LFS's compete on hands-on sales (there is something about being able to pick up a product before buying), knowledge, availibility (sometimes you need a replacement part now, not in 3-4 business days), not to mention freight savings (it is usually not cost effective to buy 1 or 2 fish online).

Steven I believe that lfs stores have to compete on price just like the big box stores. If anyone doesn't have to compete on price it is the service companies that sell tanks and supplies to their clients. No one thinks the internet is going away or that it should. It is just that people like vitz have said we are dinosaurs if we don't run e-commerse sites. The main point is that the only ones really prepared to place that game effectively are the ones camped out around 104th so they don't acquire the costs in obtaining the livestock the rest of us do. Does that make sense?
Mitch

 

[JT]

I am kind of surprised by this discussion. The internet and e-tailing are here to stay.

Yup, Jenn and I agree. Thanks for commenting on the obvious.

The discussion was fueled because of vitz's superiority complex and his constant disdain for local fish stores.

- Just JT

 

[Anonymous]

I am kind of surprised by this discussion. The internet and e-tailing are here to stay.

Yup, Jenn and I agree. Thanks for commenting on the obvious.

The discussion was fueled because of vitz's superiority complex and his constant disdain for local fish stores.

- Just JT

:lol:

pointing out that one knows not of what one speaks regarding shipping, MD/MDL and other subjects is a superiority complex??!!

given that 80% or better of all stores, b&m, or etail, don't themselves have a clue about their own trade's enduser needs gives ample reason for disdain

you wouldn't have disdain for a surgeon that couldn't take care of cleaning his own scalpel ? i sure would


bwaaahaaaahahahahaha :lol:

get a life :roll:

 

[danieldm]

Vitz-

When I first brought up the issue of MDL jobbing to fill most of their daily orders, you used terms in your replies like...

please get your facts straight, especially when it comes to what's borderline slander of a company, on this forum mmmmkay ?

you couldn't have been 'inside' MDL without passing through MD, btw, and you have no knowledge as to how our livestock is actually held and obtained
now go join the 'dizzy club'

nothing more entertaining than an industry forum where so many in the industry post as much mistaken/assumed/incorrect info as is posted here daily

this eric of which you speak was before my time, and a few have passed through here since then-MDL is a far different operation now, if it was indeed as you say in the past
though it sounds like this eric and ff are a good match

Then later in the thread you said...

SO, for the record, yes, MDL picks most of their stock per order, via employees that go to the wholesalers to visually inspect and select the livestock for customers, to best ensure maximum health of the stock ordered, and has holding tanks in house for odball items, some corals and seahorses

So you soundly defend MDL from the claims I made about their practices, and then later admit that what I had claimed was actually true. I find not only these facts, but other things that you have stated as being inconsistent. You threw out the "slander" word towards me...how about I return with the "fraud" terminology.

To be honest, with your very assertive negative response to my claims, and then your later 180 degree reversal, I find it fairly hard to trust just about anything else that comes out of your keyboard.

 

[danieldm]

pointing out that one knows not of what one speaks regarding shipping, MD/MDL and other subjects is a superiority complex??!!

I already proved, and you later substantiated that I know quite a bit about your operation.

In regards to your shipping claims...
The fish are packed at the various wholesalers as MDL is jobbing to fill their orders. These then come together back at MDL in the customers shipping box, along with anything out of the MDL tanks. When I was last in there, I saw partially filled shipping boxes sitting for over an hour waiting for the remainder of the order to be added. It may have been longer, but I was only in there 50-60 minutes. Since you admitted that your daily jobbing model hasn't changed from when I was there over a year ago, why in the world would one expect that you can now miraculously pack and truck orders within 10 minutes or so?

 

[Anonymous]

so don't trust it-it's your call

on this forum, what is real and what is believed are rarely the same thing anyway :?


and what we do is not exactly 'jobbing'


'jobbing' (as far as what i've always understood) is when a private individual who is NOT a store owner (but rather a service guy, like the type that mac seeems so fond of employing ) is able to pick out livestock at wholesale prices, without a retail license, at a wholesalers

 

[Anonymous]

pointing out that one knows not of what one speaks regarding shipping, MD/MDL and other subjects is a superiority complex??!!

I already proved, and you later substantiated that I know quite a bit about your operation.

In regards to your shipping claims...
The fish are packed at the various wholesalers as MDL is jobbing to fill their orders. These then come together back at MDL in the customers shipping box, along with anything out of the MDL tanks. When I was last in there, I saw partially filled shipping boxes sitting for over an hour waiting for the remainder of the order to be added. It may have been longer, but I was only in there 50-60 minutes. Since you admitted that your daily jobbing model hasn't changed from when I was there over a year ago, why in the world would one expect that you can now miraculously pack and truck orders within 10 minutes or so?

how could i have made any statement comparing what happened here a yr ago, to what happens now, when i haven't even worked here for a year ?


are you another JT ? :lol:

 

[mkirda]

Jeezzz...

Where are the moderators???

 

[danieldm]

Mike-

I was sort of wondering the same thing.

All- I certainly had no intention of taking this thread so far off topic with my initial post, and didn't figure it would go on for 3+ pages. I had no idea that Vitz, nor any other members, had an association with MD or MDL. Once Vitz challenged my statements I just felt compelled to respond.

and what we do is not exactly 'jobbing'
'jobbing' (as far as what i've always understood) is when a private individual who is NOT a store owner (but rather a service guy, like the type that mac seeems so fond of employing ) is able to pick out livestock at wholesale prices, without a retail license, at a wholesalers

So at a very basic level, and I know I'm putting words into your mouth, the only difference between what you are doing and what all of the small time garage operators are doing on a daily basis is that you have a retail license.

how could i have made any statement comparing what happened here a yr ago, to what happens now, when i haven't even worked here for a year ?
are you another JT ?

The point I was making is that the way you compile a customers' order has not changed since I was in there a year+ ago. Back then a customers' order sat around (bagged and partially boxed) for much more than 10 minutes. Based upon the fact that the way you compile a customers' order hasn't changed, it certainly doesn't lend credit to your claim that "(most orders are boxed and on a truck within 10 minutes of order submission)". So what you are saying is a customers' order comes in, and within 10 minutes someone has run all around 104th collecting the items then rushed back to MDL and boxed it up?

You know Vitz, the nice thing about eating crow is that if it's cooked right...it really isn't that bad.

 

[Anonymous]

Mike-

I was sort of wondering the same thing.

All- I certainly had no intention of taking this thread so far off topic with my initial post, and didn't figure it would go on for 3+ pages. I had no idea that Vitz, nor any other members, had an association with MD or MDL. Once Vitz challenged my statements I just felt compelled to respond.

and what we do is not exactly 'jobbing'
'jobbing' (as far as what i've always understood) is when a private individual who is NOT a store owner (but rather a service guy, like the type that mac seeems so fond of employing ) is able to pick out livestock at wholesale prices, without a retail license, at a wholesalers

So at a very basic level, and I know I'm putting words into your mouth, the only difference between what you are doing and what all of the small time garage operators are doing on a daily basis is that you have a retail license.

how could i have made any statement comparing what happened here a yr ago, to what happens now, when i haven't even worked here for a year ?
are you another JT ?

The point I was making is that the way you compile a customers' order has not changed since I was in there a year+ ago. Back then a customers' order sat around (bagged and partially boxed) for much more than 10 minutes. Based upon the fact that the way you compile a customers' order hasn't changed, it certainly doesn't lend credit to your claim that "(most orders are boxed and on a truck within 10 minutes of order submission)". So what you are saying is a customers' order comes in, and within 10 minutes someone has run all around 104th collecting the items then rushed back to MDL and boxed it up?

You know Vitz, the nice thing about eating crow is that if it's cooked right...it really isn't that bad.

does no one here have the ability to read and comprehend plain english ?


if you go back-you will see that i was refering to MD, and not MDL, when referring to the 'shipping logistics expert's' :lol: challenge to my order shipping statements-my statement still stands-MD's orders are usually boxed packed and loaded within 10 minutes-we even caution our customers about the inability to alter orders, due to our excellent response times

what's the big deal with a livestock order hanging around for a few hours before shipout? that's small potatoes, and everything usually deals with the 'issue' (non) with no problems at all, and MD backs everything (barring fragile species, etc) with a pretty good arrive alive guarantee



how else could we shipout over 800 packages (dry goods) on a mildly busy monday? :wink:


MD and MDL are certainly not a 'glorified garage business' (whatever that may or may not mean) :lol:


btw, afaik, as orders for MDL are placed, they are relayed to one of our staff already at 104th area, stuff's collected/picked, and brought back here, though that cold vary depending on the day's particular order traffic

the avergage wait time from a pack on livestock to shipout is prob'ly 4-5 hours, until the fedex guys pick it up-i've had customer's leave stock on a counter in lfs's for at least that long, quite often.

how do you think it works for most stores? usually the first store packed at a wholesaler's will be boxed early in the morning, and shipped out with the rest of the days orders-=it's the same thing, no ? so what's all the huhu ? :? :lol:

 

[danieldm]

Vitz-
Yes, I can read/write and understand plain English just fine. You tell me where in the following quote you even mention MD?

when someone calls mdl and asks about how they work, re: what we keep or not in a holding facility, and what we go 'cherry pick' (there's that awful east coaster terminology again ) they're told exactly how they (mdl) works, and where the fish are obtained (not the specific wholesaler, but that someone goes to visually pick the fish) . I've actually explained to new customers exactly what our setup is here, and do it on a nearly daily basis, via phone

some holding tanks for corals, and special order/oddball items, setup with liverock and skimmers, rodi water reservoir-what's to even see?

there's no huge secrets or conspiracies going on, and i don't get what/where the whole negatively subtexted undercurrent of most of these posts comes from

an online store has an arrangement to be able to pick stuff up directly from a wholesaler on an as need be basis, instead of comitting to a full order of stuff they may or may not sell quickly

i'm sure , dizzy, et al-that if you had that option where you're located, you'd be doing the exact same thing-you'd be INSANE not to, as it eliminates soooo many of the issues usually associated with holding livestock for a potential buyer that may not end up buying - i'd have jumped at the chance to be able to do that back when i was working in joisey.


SO, for the record, yes, MDL picks most of their stock per order, via employees that go to the wholesalers to visually inspect and select the livestock for customers, to best ensure maximum health of the stock ordered, and has holding tanks in house for odball items, some corals and seahorses

it's my personal opnion that we're better at going to bat for the cust re: livestock inspecting, and are more knowledgeable at it, than most online vendors

that's my personal opinion, once again

we have one of the most efficient warehouse designs around, that enable us to get orders processed as quickly as possible with minimal staff (most orders are boxed and on a truck within 10 minutes of order submission)


it's possible that maybe we're not open to the general public simply because we aren't-this is a private business that does not deal with the public face to face-why shouldn't it be 'off limits' ?

maybe we don't want people to copy our warehouse design ?
mebbe not, i don't know-but it's irrelevant, it's a private warehouse.

so if ayone wants to see the conditions our livestock are kept in, just go visit 104th, and you'll have a very clear idea-y'all can take wayne along, too

all of you conspiracy theorists can go do what it is you do to have a life (dreaming up more wild theories, i guess)

i personally wouldn't dare go to work for anyone that i thought was substandard to my own personal quality requirements for a retail fish and fish supply biz-those who know me can attest to that-if i thought this place was in the least not concerned with hiring the best csrs, and aquarium staff available, i wouldn't be working here to begin with

hey, welcome to the business model of the future

Your entire post, including your "10 minute" comment, is in regards to MDL. Not once do you mention MD. I checked the remainder of the thread, and not once when I, Jenn, or anyone else said anything about the 10 minute shipping did you clarify that you meant MD, and not MDL. Why in the world would we NOT think that you were talking about MDL?

The way that you twist, and then contradict, and then restate, and then back peddle makes one truly question what comes out of your keyboard. If I was Ken Wong, and I knew that you were acting as a representative of my company in such a fashion online, you would be delivering pizzas tomorrow.

There's no use even trying to converse with you, this conversation is over, I'm outta of here.

 

[danieldm]

how do you think it works for most stores? usually the first store packed at a wholesaler's will be boxed early in the morning, and shipped out with the rest of the days orders-=it's the same thing, no ? so what's all the huhu ?

I know I said I was out of here....

The main "huhu" is simply the fact that you misrepresented the truth (I'm really trying hard not to use the L word). I don't have any problem with what MDL is doing. I may not agree with it 100%, but from the start you did nothing but name call, and acuse slander, and cry foul. Then you do a 180 and think that you get a free pass, even though you continue to play word games. My problem is with the wholesalers that are allowing you to daily cherry pick to fill your orders, and still expect some level of customer loyalty from their B&M stores.

This is why I don't agree with the MDL model...I'll give you a hypothetical.

ACME Marine Wholesale receives a shipment from Bali on Sunday night around 2am. They then acclimate it and put it into their tanks a few hours later. Early Monday morning in walks the e-tail cherry picker, and picks out a number of fish from his list, including a large Bali Angel that a customer in Chicago ordered. As a matter of fact it's one of the fish that had just arrived at 2am. The angel gets bagged and taken back to the e-tailers warehouse where it then gets shipped 2/3 of the way cross Country to Chicago.

Okay, we all know how badly fish get stressed being transhipped cross Country. Other than a little longer oxygenation process at the wholesalers, what is the difference?

 

[Kalkbreath]

Big box stores compete on price for the most part, but Internet vendors with lower overhead costs should be able to beat them. Good LFS's compete on hands-on sales (there is something about being able to pick up a product before buying), knowledge, availability (sometimes you need a replacement part now, not in 3-4 business days), not to mention freight savings (it is usually not cost effective to buy 1 or 2 fish online).

Ever wonder why the number of hobbyists in Cities with populations less then 500,000 is thirty times lower then in Cities with large number of people? Small towns dont have fish stores promoting the hobby.
Even though most of the US population lives in small towns and has access to the same Internet and online e-tail stores.........There are so few Local brick and mortar reef stores that the general public has little exposure to the idea of an reef aquarium.
This is a grand example of whats in store if the Brick and mortar LFS dry up in big cities as well.
Big box stores are responsible for creating most of the hobbyists in America.
I used to by my fish in a K mart and Sears thirty years ago.
They do a great job of introducing the public to aquariums.
Seeing a nice new aquarium while walking through the Sears to buy socks is how most people were introduced to the hobby in the sixties seventies eighties........
Internet stores are leaches on the sides of real retailers.
The hardest part of this business is getting the publics attention. Without the interest in the product who is there to sell to?
Like in the movie business, selling the DVD for ten percent over cost is the easy part, recouping the money spent making an interesting motion picture is the tricky part.

:wink:

 

[dizzy]

A healthy host can support a certain number of parasites without major harm. But however when the number of parasites grows too large, the health of the host begins to suffer. At some point the host can no longer recover from the ill effects of the blood sucking and it dies. When the host dies the parasites die with it. End of story.

PS
This business model does not generate any new customers into the industry. This business model is not content to take away the margins the dealers make on drygoods, but chooses to go after the livestock as well. I too wonder why the wholesalers allow this. They are guilty of complicity in slowly but surely destroying the customer base that built them in the first place. :?

I agree with Steven Pro that we need to cull the herd and get rid of the bad retailers. By the same token we need to pull some of the ticks off of the good ones that are left so they can remain healthy.
Mitch

 

[JT]

'jobbing' (as far as what i've always understood) is when a private individual who is NOT a store owner (but rather a service guy, like the type that mac seeems so fond of employing ) is able to pick out livestock at wholesale prices, without a retail license, at a wholesalers

Not a very accurate description at all. All the big boys, wholesalers, require you to have a retail license and most require it to be "pet related" so Joe Schmoe can't come in with a license to sell computer parts and buy fish for his buddy. This may not be the case at the less reputable boys.

Most true jobbers I know are very professional and shrewd business men and they know how to pick livestock very well, sometimes too well. Like I said in one of my earilier posts, there is one jobber in LA that I respect very highly because of how he, and his staff, conduct themselves.

Joe Schmoe coming in and picking fish for his buddy is NOT a 'jobber'. A 'jobber' works as a representative for a store, or several stores, and some of the larger ones have a very large customer base and own holding facilities.

does no one here have the ability to read and comprehend plain english ?

If you would write plainly in English, we may be able to read and comprehend better what you are trying to say. Your posts are very hard to read because you form improper sentences, don't quote former posts properly, and love to paraphrase out of context and twist meanings. If you had explained things in more detail, such as the 'truck' issue, in your first post we wouldn't have had to argue and debate it over a multitude of replies. Also, it was never clear which MD you were always referring to when you went on your tirades. Personally, I think it was illogical to make the jump to dry goods in reference to the trucking issue when the entirety of the remainder of that particular post was in reference to livestock.

If I was Ken Wong, and I knew that you were acting as a representative of my company in such a fashion online, you would be delivering pizzas tomorrow.

Kind of hard to deliver a pizza on a bicycle, he'd lose that job pretty damned fast as well. :wink:

are you another JT ?

There can only be one.

- The original JT

 

[dizzy]

Well according to Dr. Ron http://drrons.blogspot.com/ the former experts of RC have moved over to the MD site. It will be interesting to see how this develops.

I just had to edit this post and add this quote from Dr. Ron: "I think that having our forums on a forthrightly commercial site such as Marine Depot will prevent the kind of moderator abuse that developed and really pervaded all of RC over the last couple of years."

Huh, how will that prevent moderator abuse?

 

[JT]

ACME Marine Wholesale receives a shipment from Bali on Sunday night around 2am. They then acclimate it and put it into their tanks a few hours later. Early Monday morning in walks the e-tail cherry picker, and picks out a number of fish from his list, including a large Bali Angel that a customer in Chicago ordered. As a matter of fact it's one of the fish that had just arrived at 2am. The angel gets bagged and taken back to the e-tailers warehouse where it then gets shipped 2/3 of the way cross Country to Chicago.

Unfortunately, this is not really different from "ACME Marine" shipping that same fish that arrived 5 hours ago to one of their direct customers. Almost every wholesaler gets the majority of their livestock in over the weekend, most of it on Sunday and come Monday morning it's all about "sell, sell, sell" and try and maximize profits on this day.

I used to consider this more of an issue than I now do. In the past, I would have loved to have seen fish rest for 3 to 4 days at the wholesaler before shipping to a store. However, now that I've been in the business at just about every level along the chain, I think I'd much rather see the fish get to the store, providing the store is reputable, as quickly as possible. Unfortunately, there are a ton of stores who are too lazy to properly quarantine or with basic fish care knowledge to properly treat fish, even for simple problems such as flukes, where this thinking will continue to be debatable by many (including myself).

- JT

 

[danieldm]

Unfortunately, this is not really different from "ACME Marine" shipping that same fish that arrived 5 hours ago to one of their direct customers. Almost every wholesaler gets the majority of their livestock in over the weekend, most of it on Sunday and come Monday morning it's all about "sell, sell, sell" and try and maximize profits on this day.

I used to consider this more of an issue than I now do. In the past, I would have loved to have seen fish rest for 3 to 4 days at the wholesaler before shipping to a store. However, now that I've been in the business at just about every level along the chain, I think I'd much rather see the fish get to the store, providing the store is reputable, as quickly as possible. Unfortunately, there are a ton of stores who are too lazy to properly quarantine or with basic fish care knowledge to properly treat fish, even for simple problems such as flukes, where this thinking will continue to be debatable by many (including myself).

JT-

At least when the fish is going to a retail store there is another opportunity for it to be monitored beford going to the consumers tank. If it is a really solid store the fish may even get some sort of medcial conditioning (dips, etc) and possibly a breather before being put up for sale.

When it goes straight to the hobbyist there isn't the same opportunity. I think the vast percentage of people ordering believe that these fish are floating peacefully at the MDL holding facility, and not just getting off the proverbial boat.

In reading all of the lit at their site, the impression that one would get is that these fish are lovingly kept by MDL. They never come right out and directly say either way where the fish are kept, but when you say something like;

Welcome to MarineDepotLive. We aim to be your total & complete source for the healthiest aquaria from the oceans worldwide! Our selection includes hundreds of fish, corals, invertebrates, live rock and sand from all over the world (including rare and hard-to-find species).

We skillfully pack every order. All marine life is selected and packed by the best technicians in the industry who carefully screen each specimen for health, color and quality.

We select from the best and healthiest for our customers. Stationed near the Los Angeles International Airport, MarineDepotLive receives stock from all over the world. We select only strong, active and healthy aquaria for our customers. We don't pick out aquaria that are unhealthy, improperly handled or improperly shipped (less travel trauma means increased survivability).

The wide selection at MarineDepotLive allows you to choose from hundreds of species of fish and invertebrates, including rare and hard-to-find aquaria. We are also continually on the lookout for the best livestock.

well you get my point.

 

[Anonymous]

well, i'll just let all of you 'armchair experts' on etailers keep discussing away, and leave it at y'all thinking i'm intentionally misleading y'all, with yer conspiracy theories and attitudes



this is all a tempest in a teapot anyway :lol:

let's just say that both MD and MDL are glorified garage operations, and leave it at that-most folks who deal with both know better, and arrive at different conclusions than the 'anti-net' crowd here

and if any accidental omission (i wa sure i made it clear that i was refering to MD, certainly at least on the shipping issues) of what i'm refering to is involved, (WAIT_NOW THEY'LL SAY I'M BACKPEADALLING AND TRYING TO SAVE FACE WITH A COVERUP BEING EXPOSED! :lol: ) it was not intended, but the tone here gets one so immediately defensive, with regards to the terms and assumptions being used about how a business runs, by people who simply are completely ignorant (based on experience-all of y'alls info is second hand, at best, and based on total rumor, at worst) that the response given by me was typed more out of anger and knee jerk response reflex than anything else

(all of which seem to be so hostile and pre-emptive in their nit picking, as to demand that type of response-which is why i responded the way i did)


but again, for the record, all of your conjecture, for whatever it's worth, can remain, and far be it from me to try and correct your ignorance regarding to what level of hobbyist care and proffesionalism both MD and MDL work according to

i know the type of company i'm willing to work for, and what type of companies i work for-for those who know me, and my standards as a 30 +year hobbyist and employee of retailers, wholesalers, and distributors, that's enough to clearly indicate the type of company MD and MDL are

that's all i'll say on the subject

 

[danieldm]

Someone posted about MD. I responded with what I knew about the company and specifically MDL. You then jumped all over my post saying that I was am unknowing hobbyist, that there is NO WAY that I knew what I was talking about, and that I should think before posting what is close to slander.

Then later in the thread you do a 180 and readily admit that what I had stated was correct.

but again, for the record, all of your conjecture, for whatever it's worth, can remain, and far be it from me to try and correct your ignorance regarding to what level of hobbyist care and proffesionalism both MD and MDL work according to

What conjecture, so far every statement that could have possibly been "conjecture" was later substantiated...BY YOU!

I don't have any problem with your business model, it's prefectly legal, and I'm certain that there are many across the Country that complain about it but they would happily trade places with you if they had the chance. My only problem is that MDL isn't up front about the fact that they don't have a holding facility. My main problem is with the wholesalers that are allowing MDL, Dr's F&S, etc. to cherry pick out of their tanks. How can they possibly have their other customers' best interest at heart by allowing thse mail order companies to do so. Especially when they impose order minimums on their "shipout" customers but don't impose the same minimums on the mail order cherry pickers. Which makes the cherry pickers free to spend $30 here, $60 there, and on down the line. Don't say that isn't the way that it is, I know it is becasue I was once a mail order cherry picker and I was doing it.

Where the thread turned South was when you defended MD and MDL with what were untruthful statements. No conspiracy theory, no nit-picking, just calling your less than truthful statements for what they were.