Borneman's Reefkeeping Magazine article

[Anonymous]

Someone posted about MD. I responded with what I knew about the company and specifically MDL. You then jumped all over my post saying that I was am unknowing hobbyist, that there is NO WAY that I knew what I was talking about, and that I should think before posting what is close to slander.

Then later in the thread you do a 180 and readily admit that what I had stated was correct.

but again, for the record, all of your conjecture, for whatever it's worth, can remain, and far be it from me to try and correct your ignorance regarding to what level of hobbyist care and proffesionalism both MD and MDL work according to

What conjecture, so far every statement that could have possibly been "conjecture" was later substantiated...BY YOU!

I don't have any problem with your business model, it's prefectly legal, and I'm certain that there are many across the Country that complain about it but they would happily trade places with you if they had the chance. My only problem is that MDL isn't up front about the fact that they don't have a holding facility. My main problem is with the wholesalers that are allowing MDL, Dr's F&S, etc. to cherry pick out of their tanks. How can they possibly have their other customers' best interest at heart by allowing thse mail order companies to do so. Especially when they impose order minimums on their "shipout" customers but don't impose the same minimums on the mail order cherry pickers. Which makes the cherry pickers free to spend $30 here, $60 there, and on down the line. Don't say that isn't the way that it is, I know it is becasue I was once a mail order cherry picker and I was doing it.

Where the thread turned South was when you defended MD and MDL with what were untruthful statements. No conspiracy theory, no nit-picking, just calling your less than truthful statements for what they were.

that simply isn't true...we tell people publicly DAILY exactly how we work, with no 'big secrets'-which is why i have such a HUGE problem with your statements-and MDL does indeed have a holdng facility-but it's not big, by industry standards, and is used for specific things/reasons.

your assumption as to the amount of business we do, should be admitted to as being an assumption-you have no idea of whether we, or any other etailer, approaches whatever minimums needed for wholesale pricing

(and there usually isn't a 'minimum' involved anyway-some stores (and i've sold to afew as a wholesaler) will only do a one-two box order in a month, we sell much more than that-maybe those b&m's should be the ones called 'cherry pickers')

have you ever called MDL lately to simply ask?? :? :wink:


why do you keep using the phrase 'perfectly legal' ? are you trying to imply a subtext of something going on that may not be?? :? (just seems odd that you would repeat that phrase as often as you do)

the bottom line is that the goods are certainly no less of quality to the enduser, and in fact-the customer may actually be getting a superior product, due to one less link in the acclimation chain getting involved(also possibly due to the initial eyebaling by our staff ) -i would certainly prefer to get my fish straight from a wholesaler to my tank, rather than have it first hit a 'typical' (what is to me, based on lots of experience) LFS, with all sorts of possible high school ignorami running the show, no ick/brooklynella protocol in place etc....


in the same way that jt's high school packaging logistics experience has very little similiarity base in real time shipping logistics for a company that does the volume MD does , i severely doubt that your experience as a 'mail order cherry picker' has anything in common/relevance with the way MDL performs, or in the way they do business

it's really quite amusing how growing companies, with 20-30 odd employees that are doing very large volumes of business, and are expanding yearly are still being reffered to as 'garage' businesses :lol:

 

[Anonymous]

and btw, i know of at least one wholesaler/importer that refuses to deal with etailers, who's facility is also by apointment only, and is completely closed to the general walk-in public-so what? it doesn't make their stock of any less quality, or less desirable for purchase :wink:



there are often sound business reasons why some companies wish for their facility to NOT be accesible to the walk-in public-just please don't read into that more than what's really there :wink:

(and it's all legal, too )

 

[danieldm]

Vitz-

I was not implying anything by my "perfectly legal" statement. I apologize if it came across that I was implying anything otherwise towards yourself, MD or MDL. That certainly was not my intention. I do not think there is anything illegal, or even bordering on illegal ging on there. Again, my apologies if it came across that way.

Let me clarify what I meant by the "garage" business. Remember back when every Tom, Lisa, Dick, Marsha, Harry, Jennifer started setting up websites and trying to be a mail order fish business. They had a few tanks in their garages to hold a limited amount of really nice fish/coral and then would hit the various wholesalers trying to fill orders? The basic business model is the same as what MDL is using. Granted that MDL has employees, and amuch more knowledgeable staff, and a bigger budget, etc.. But at the core business model, it's no different than all of those garage business' that people are running out of their homes, just a much different scale. That's what I meant.

How about this...let's agree to disagree since neither of us is going to move from our statements and/or positions. I have enjoyed this little exchage, but doubt if either of us wish to carry it any further.

Marc

 

[Kalkbreath]

there are often sound business reasons why some companies wish for their facility to NOT be accesible to the walk-in public-just please don't read into that more than what's really there :wink:

( )

I would be interested in hearing some of those reasons?
Would any of those reasons happen to benefit the customers or the Industry?
Or solely ment to facilitate a pseudo retail situation and the ability to under cut those true retail stores that take the tremendous amount of additional time and money to create the hobbyists.

 

[Anonymous]

there are often sound business reasons why some companies wish for their facility to NOT be accesible to the walk-in public-just please don't read into that more than what's really there :wink:

( )

I would be interested in hearing some of those reasons?
Would any of those reasons happen to benefit the customers or the Industry?
Or solely ment to facilitate a pseudo retail situation and the ability to under cut those true retail stores that take the tremendous amount of additional time and money to create the hobbyists.

eh, squeeze me, baking powder ?

anyone who retails and has a retail license is a true retail store, in my book, and you never ever 'created' an hobbyist, nor has anyone else here

what an arrogant opinion we seem to all have of ourselves!!

the only one ultimately solely responsible for getting into any hobby is the hobbyist themself, all we do is maybe make the plunge easier and more informed-but we did not create the desire to become involved-the hobbyist did

where and when did store owners get so damned self important?




face, you're just in a retail biz like any other, only this particular one revolves around aquatic life

are you saying that model railroad stores are the ones responsible for creating n-gauge model railroad enthusiasts? roflmao

 

[Kalkbreath]

You still have not explained how not opening up to the public helps the customer or the hobby?
If your moved MD out to Lone Pine in Antelope Valley would that create more or less hobbyists then MD creates by being in LA? :wink:

 

[danieldm]

I came across this exchange while doing some research on an unrelated issue, and I think it's pertinent to the direction this thread has gone. This was written by a very well respected industry insider and I would like to get vitz's take on it:

My comments are directed to the 'garage'(read: non b&m) lfs industry/proffesion, and the practice of cherry picking at a wholesaler, as being patently immoral, in my opinion, as it relates to it's patent unfairness to the b&m lfs's who must deal with the wholesaler/cherry picking/garage biz types that under cut what most retailers percieve to be a slight to the wholesaler/retailer relationship

How many wholesalers would be pleased if their suppliers sold directly to the store I worked at, either allowing me to view and select their best pieces/items, or caused items they placed on order to not be shipped, since the store i worked at snatched them up as the availability lists were being read by them?

I've had many dissapointed customers over the yrs as a result of the whole cherry picking practice- and I expect a certain level of 'business trust' w/any wholesaler I have to place an order with, as a representative of the lfs I work for, and as a liaison to the customers of the lfs

Vitz, do you agree with this position? It closely mirrors the point that I have been trying to make. This guy basically says that cherry picking (like MDL does) is immoral and that it's unfair to a wholesalers brick/mortar customers. How do you feel about that?

 

[StevenPro]

Being sold into servitude (ala slave labor) in exchange for passage to the US is immoral. I also find child labor immoral. Cherry picking is immoral? Come on now.

 

[Anonymous]

Oh jeeze come on now let's not be ridiculous. Something doesn't have to be a heinous crime to be immoral. I happen to feel lieing is immoral. I feel outrageous photoshopping or "garfing" of pictures is immoral. So because you don't agree with what I feel is immoral suddenly they aren't?

I believe you people are missing the point.

 

[clarionreef]

you people are missing the point.
...and the thread.
The Borneman article is this page.
The cherrypicking one has its own now.

How many wholesalers would be pleased if their suppliers sold directly to the store ?
They do...often!
Its called transhipping!
Steve

 

[danieldm]

Well I quoted someone who has been in the industry a long tine, in various positions. You can see how opposite this person views are to vitz's. This person is obviously a strong opponent of the mail order cherry pick, jobbing business model and a strong advocate for brick/mortar stores.

The person that I'm quoting, and it's a direct quote, is vitz from an older thread.

 

[Anonymous]

I came across this exchange while doing some research on an unrelated issue, and I think it's pertinent to the direction this thread has gone. This was written by a very well respected industry insider and I would like to get vitz's take on it:

My comments are directed to the 'garage'(read: non b&m) lfs industry/proffesion, and the practice of cherry picking at a wholesaler, as being patently immoral, in my opinion, as it relates to it's patent unfairness to the b&m lfs's who must deal with the wholesaler/cherry picking/garage biz types that under cut what most retailers percieve to be a slight to the wholesaler/retailer relationship

How many wholesalers would be pleased if their suppliers sold directly to the store I worked at, either allowing me to view and select their best pieces/items, or caused items they placed on order to not be shipped, since the store i worked at snatched them up as the availability lists were being read by them?

I've had many dissapointed customers over the yrs as a result of the whole cherry picking practice- and I expect a certain level of 'business trust' w/any wholesaler I have to place an order with, as a representative of the lfs I work for, and as a liaison to the customers of the lfs

Vitz, do you agree with this position? It closely mirrors the point that I have been trying to make. This guy basically says that cherry picking (like MDL does) is immoral and that it's unfair to a wholesalers brick/mortar customers. How do you feel about that?

we need to get some definitions straight

i do not refer to anyone with a retail license, who buys in amounts that justify wholesale pricing by the seller, as a 'cherry picker'

i do not refer to someone who has the advantage of being more closely located to a wholesaler, and thereby being able to visually choose their stock, as a 'cherry picker'

i do not refer to anyone who sells to the public in general as a retailer, as a cherry picker

i refer to any non-retailer (read: aquarium service dude/gal) who buys non-wholesale amounts of stock, AND wants to be selective, whether the ordering is done on premises, or NOT, as a 'cherry picker'- in other words someone who walks in to a wholesaler on 104th, wants to buy 6 items at wholesale cost, and does this maybe once a month


when i was working as an lfs manager in jerusalem, i would drive 2 hrs to the tel aviv (hertzliyah, ramat gan) area every wednesday, just to arrive at the wholesalers before 6 am, when they would open for stores to place orders from the previous nites arrivals.. (they would also deliver via a phone order, but the suppliers in israel make the less scrupulous folks here in the u.s. look like boy scouts).....

so, in the interest of my customers,(and my own good business) i would visually pick out and select each and every single one of my 'orders'' items/stock, and there was quite abit of jockeying for position between stores for the 'early bird' spot.



so we have me as a retailer, going to visit a wholesaler in person, picking out item by item, a grand or two's worth of stuff.....i don't consider that cherry picking....



i don't even think that 'cherry picking' is the gripe y'all have-i think it's strictly sour grapes about the plain ol' fact that those who are physically closer to the serving plate, get a hotter meal


i also think there's a fundamental, deep rooted phobia/hatred of the internet in general, from the majority of the b&m side

my general impression is that the b&m's fel that they're now getting the short end of the stick, due to the 'evolution' of electronic media's effect on how business is done

mebbe the real question is, or should be, is doing business on/via the net less 'moral' than doing it face to face?

(methinks the answer's a resounding 'no')





none of you think that a wholesaler on the west coast will never give a really good customer on the east better pick/fill treatment than a sporadic so-so customer ? isn't that the same thing as your 'cherry picking' ?

if you had the ability to 'pop-in' to 104th for your orders, and picked out specimens visually to ensure the best for your customers, would you then be a 'cherry picker' ?



and finally, all morality is relative -i'd certainly rather deal with a 'garage' biz than with a cyanide apologist who claims to be a godsend to saltwater hobbydom, and claims to be responsible for hobbyist's existence. (ahem, kalk)

the former, in my book, is far more moral than the latter :idea:

vox populae, vox dei

 

[Anonymous]

Well I quoted someone who has been in the industry a long tine, in various positions. You can see how opposite this person views are to vitz's. This person is obviously a strong opponent of the mail order cherry pick, jobbing business model and a strong advocate for brick/mortar stores.

The person that I'm quoting, and it's a direct quote, is vitz from an older thread.

opinions change as we grow and learn

now that i'm familiar with both sides of the coin, via direct experience, i've re-evaluated certain things, and re-defined my own definitions as my knowledge grew

so you caught me changing my mind, nothing wrong with that at all

 

[Anonymous]

???huh???

we don't have a store, so there's nothing to see, as far as the general public is concerned

are you that interested in a tour of a warehouse ? :lol:

Yes, yes I am. You don't mind if I bring my camera do you? I'd like to drop in unexpected if you don't mind. Make sure Ken Wong doesn't have any problems with it.
Thanks
Mitch

Yes, Yes and I will drop in too.
I would like permission to bring a camera as well.
I will just drop in as well.
Thank you for the invite Vitz
Wayne

you may have to first qualify by being either an industry related individual, or a hobbyist-so far, you've never given any reliable indication that you're either

Vitz, I would be happy to. I am Reeform. I share the same concerns experts like Borneman, industry reeformists like Mary Middlebrook, and many hobbyists do.

As a hobbyist I want my hobby to be self-sustaining and ethical. I want it to have compassion for the fishers but but at the same time respect for the reef environment itself. I want to ensure that the use of cyanide ends.
I want to ensure that those fish and coral that have no reasonable chance of survival in hobbyists tank are not imported save and except by special order.
So, I am both hobbyist and industry related. That is why I have been a member of this forum since its creation and partly responsible for its creation. I trust that I meet the qualifications. I pay retail. I promise not to take the opportunity to cherry pick

I just have to ask -- since you went and actually said the part I bolded....


Who came up with the actual moniker "Reeform"?

 

[Anonymous]

For the record, and realize, I have not finished wading my way through this thread.

I have never once, out of all the companies (both real and internet) I have purchased or looked to purchase livestock from, been asked what size tank, what kind of tank, what kind of lighting, what kind of skimmer, what inhabitants I have etc etc.


Never once, except for one person at a store in Jersey who actually did ask what kind of tank I had, and then proceeded to do a bit of educating....

I will let you figure out who that is.

:wink:


Now, A question...


What exactly is wrong with a company going to a wholesaler and picking out the fish needed to fill an order and then shipping it out? Does not that take one whole step out of the whole equation? One less adjustment that has to be made by the creature involved? If I had to decide what was best for the creatures, I would pick this. Take it out of its natural environment and put it in its permanent home.

Not, take it out of the ocean, ship it here and there, acclimate it to this tank and then ship it somewhere else and acclimate it there etc etc.

In fact, if there was a store that would take an order from me, and go out and actually collect the creature I ordered from the ocean and pack it up and ship it to me right then and there, why I think I would place an order today.....

 

[Anonymous]

Btw

I actually asked a store owner here in Jersey (I am not going to say which one) why the hell they were sending a first time tank owner out with the following...

1 2.5 gallon tank
1 bag of salt
1 brown paper bag with a Lionfish in it.
Plus a bit of other supplies.


He told me the following.


We are here to sell fish, its the customers job to educate him/herself on the needs of the animals he buys.

:Roll:

haven't been back since...

 

[Anonymous]

i do not refer to anyone with a retail license, who buys in amounts that justify wholesale pricing by the seller, as a 'cherry picker'

i refer to any non-retailer (read: aquarium service dude/gal) who buys non-wholesale amounts of stock, AND wants to be selective, whether the ordering is done on premises, or NOT, as a 'cherry picker'- in other words someone who walks in to a wholesaler on 104th, wants to buy 6 items at wholesale cost, and does this maybe once a month

I'm just curious as to how you manage to equate "cherry picking" with how much money a business with or without a license spends at any particular place?

Cherry picking is just that, picking out the cream of the crop. A cherry picker certainly isn't cherry picking toadstools. They aren't picking up brown frilly mushrooms. They are taking the hottest colored sps. The insane colored acanthastrea, etc etc and NOTHING else. Chery picking is a dude who posts on the boards a three page thread of all the acanthastrea lords he has for sale while I look over lists which limit me to 1 per order while I get my fill of lobed leathers and yellow polyps? Hey someone has to be sent the scraps right? A wholesaler can definitely sell out all their cherry stock. But if all they have are cherry pickers, who's going to buy the rest of it?

I believe that is very different than picking out your corals for HEALTH. I had the opportunity to "cherry pick" and instead of looking for the rarest pieces and snapping up as many as I could hurry out the door with I took HEALTHY pieces. Huge difference.

There's much to be said for loyalty I believe and I'm with steve on this one. The "cherries" should be reserved for those customers who come back time and again. These are customers who also take the "bread and butter" items....another term you should probably become familiar with.

Your correlation between cherry picking and amount of money spent is ridiculous. IMHO

 

[clarionreef]

Thanks JP.,
As a side note; many of the rarest corals you see on the net.... but not in the stocklists of wholesalers is on account of smuggling thru the international mail services.
I get to see super rare and red acans...but not thru the legal route.
We see them when the US Fish and Wildlife Service agents bring em in for identification and housing after confiscation.
So, to add to the insult, the greatest cherrypickers may also be promoting this kind of activity with their market pressure.
Steve

 

[Kalkbreath]

The whole idea of chery picking has had an ill effect on the industry.
Most local LFS stores through out the USA are struggling due to cherry picking.
Local stores get their orders filled from the left overs after the cherry poppers have had there way with the new shipments.

Years ago the average customer would be quite content picking out a brown torch coral or even a brown Acropora. The LFS I shopped at in the late 1990s sold dozens each week. To day neither that store or mine
can sell either, even for cost. Not brown ones!
"The grass is always greener online and so are the corals"
has warped the mind of the average hobbyist.
This new market has placed extreme pressure not only on the local fish stores to match up to the photocopied E-tailers, but also the wild reefs have less of the good stuff as well.
Brown Acros and tourches out number colorful ones a hundred to one in the wild.
Short sited wholesalers have allowed this situation to happen. They are the gate keepers to a healthy retail market.
I know all too well the guilty feeling Vitz seems to have as of this point still been able to avoid.
Tomorrow is coral shipment day at my local supplier.I dont really buy much from them but hell I cant very well let my competition get a hold of the few cherry corals they might have!.... I will go down to my local wholesaler and systematically scoop up all the healthy show size Anemones, and the few nice colored coral they might have out of the five hundred or so brown ones.
Leaving the balance of the picked over live stock to be boxed up later that day and sent out to the three hundred fish stores this wholesaler will be delivering to tomorrow.


See, Vitz and I are alike in many ways ........its just that I am man enough to admit not only to my self but to others aswell that I feel dirty taking advantage of the system.

 

[Anonymous]

I still don't see what is dirty about capitalism.

It seems like you are promoting a form or communism where every fish store gets served with the exact same amount of awesome verses plain corals and fish.

That's is so far from realistic as to be laughable.

Here are a couple of rules in this world, in case you never heard them before....


1. First come first served
2. The early bird gets the worm


Ever wonder why they are popular sayings? Cause they are true!


Every Store has the divine right to go out and cherrypick, and just because most of them don't bother to figure out a way to get the good stuff doesn't mean you should lamblast the ones that do....