Borneman's Reefkeeping Magazine article
- Thread starter dizzy
- Start date
You know Jenn it is much easier for one of the closed to the public type of places to practice illegal trade than a bonafide brick and mortar who opens his/her doors to the public everyday. It's also much easier for a garage type business to pull up stakes and relocate as well. :wink:
That's true - but I've even seen things I shouldn't have seen in B&M places. Also, not every retailer may realize that certain animals readily available at their wholesaler, may have been illegally obtained. All they know is that it's there, for sale, and they buy it... wholesalers aren't obligated to disclose their sources, permits etc. We take it on faith that everything is imported legally - but given the amount of stuff that gets confiscated, clearly it's not. Who knows much slips through the cracks?
Yep easier if it's closed to the public, but not if the inspectors make their rounds regularly. That is, assuming that the inspectors understand what they are inspecting.
Jenn
Yep easier if it's closed to the public, but not if the inspectors make their rounds regularly. That is, assuming that the inspectors understand what they are inspecting.
Jenn
dizzy":2drvt5p8 said:
i so wish there was a way i could take up a bet with you on real data re: how many b&m's deal with illegal stock vs etailers
i've seen far more illegal stock in b&m's on premises than i've ever even seen offered or available on etail sites
vitz":3fw46tvn said:
That might be true on the East Coast where you come from, but the shops around here are generally clean in that regard. I've managed to last over 20-years in the trade without resorting to illegal sales. I think the internet enables illegal trade much easier. They don't allow porno stores around here, but how can they keep smut out of people's houses that have computers?
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
Mitch,
The Acanthurus guttatus tang is actually from the South Pacific.
They are simply mis-naming the Mexican sawtail or yellowtail tang [prionurus punctatus] for market reasons.
In other words, they are claiming to have a smuggled fish when in fact all they have is a legal one.
Steve
PS. Or....its really the Mexican species and the only photo and name in hand was the South Pacific guttatus.
Having shipped a thousand of these to Sea World for their shark tanks over the years, and filled out the fish and wildlife forms, I couldn't get this wrong.
The Acanthurus guttatus tang is actually from the South Pacific.
They are simply mis-naming the Mexican sawtail or yellowtail tang [prionurus punctatus] for market reasons.
In other words, they are claiming to have a smuggled fish when in fact all they have is a legal one.
Steve
PS. Or....its really the Mexican species and the only photo and name in hand was the South Pacific guttatus.
Having shipped a thousand of these to Sea World for their shark tanks over the years, and filled out the fish and wildlife forms, I couldn't get this wrong.
nanocat":1zrg6lqx said:
Look at the price of retail rent most stores can't afford much of a back room. Can you imagine how hard it would be to get into the back room of a closed to the public business. They've got two layers of protection. Besides they don't even have to take possession of the illegal item until it is sold on their web site. They have the wholesalers to warehouse it for them.
mkirda":j25k1h7l said:
Sick and in another country.
If you see problems again, shoot me a pm.
There was some abhorrent behavior in this thread. The content was fine, the way it was expressed leaves much to be desired. In the future, when it is seen people will be given a time out of a week for starters.
Please help me out, when you see something that you think deserves administrative action, let me know so I can take a look at it.
Thanks.
Righty,
While this thread may have wandered and at times violated the spirit of political correctness, it is none the less, one of the more informative threads that have been posted about the inner working of the industry in quite awhile. It really should be considered a must read for anyone that is thinking seriously about opening up a retail store. What we have learned is that the wholesalers do basically nothing to help protect the retailers who open brick and mortar stores, and take on all the liability and costs associated with operating such stores. It is a far better scheme it would seem, to just have a web site and go pick up the animals at the wholesaler once they are sold. Some wholesalers don't even require that. They actually box and ship direct to the hobbyists in the name of certain select companies. This is a forum called "The Industry Behind the Hobby" and now I think most people who have read this thread have a better understanding of the direction the industry is heading. It is my hope that the eye openings revelations will help us make wise purchasing decisions at the wholesale and retail level so we can have a sustainable industry.
Mitch
While this thread may have wandered and at times violated the spirit of political correctness, it is none the less, one of the more informative threads that have been posted about the inner working of the industry in quite awhile. It really should be considered a must read for anyone that is thinking seriously about opening up a retail store. What we have learned is that the wholesalers do basically nothing to help protect the retailers who open brick and mortar stores, and take on all the liability and costs associated with operating such stores. It is a far better scheme it would seem, to just have a web site and go pick up the animals at the wholesaler once they are sold. Some wholesalers don't even require that. They actually box and ship direct to the hobbyists in the name of certain select companies. This is a forum called "The Industry Behind the Hobby" and now I think most people who have read this thread have a better understanding of the direction the industry is heading. It is my hope that the eye openings revelations will help us make wise purchasing decisions at the wholesale and retail level so we can have a sustainable industry.
Mitch
One thing I don't understand, maybe someone can help me out.
Is it in fact true that when a B&M orders fish or corals off a list of available stuff from a wholesaler, they might not in fact get the stuff they ordered?
But they get filler?
How does that work exactly?
I had a supplier try to pawn off non camp Zincs to me the other day, and not only did I take him to task for it, I made him ship them back and replace them with ones made by Camp.
Maybe this industry is different, but its really the first one I have ever heard of where you actually get something you didn't order....
Is it in fact true that when a B&M orders fish or corals off a list of available stuff from a wholesaler, they might not in fact get the stuff they ordered?
But they get filler?
How does that work exactly?
I had a supplier try to pawn off non camp Zincs to me the other day, and not only did I take him to task for it, I made him ship them back and replace them with ones made by Camp.
Maybe this industry is different, but its really the first one I have ever heard of where you actually get something you didn't order....
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
Maybe this industry is different, but its really the first one I have ever heard of where you actually get something you didn't order....
Huh?
Of course you get things you don't order.
Importers sure do anyway and routinely.
To be to fastidious and high-minded about it would hardly be productive as its impossible to get exactly what you actually want owing to the fact that nature doesn't provide the ultra this or exquisite that on demand and according to correct timetables.
Stocklists are often more like general templates or wish-lists.
"Hey, we didn't order those 18 orange shoulder tangs!" is hardly newsworthy.
"Hey we ordered 700 yellow tangs but this can [ container] is half empty even though we have to pay for the full thing!"
Or "HEY, I ordered 15 green hammers, 10 red scolmias, 12 red yumas and 6 red lord howensis....and all I got were the common things on the list like goniporas, lobos, sarcos and bubbles!"
In defense of this institutional bait and switch let me say that when the cherries are gone and 2,0000 items remain, someone has to take em to keep the trade alive and cash flowing.
And the more fastidious one is about it the smaller his orders and importance become to the shipper.
If you get dogged on this one, you may get a nice fill on the next.
Whiners and cherry pickers may get lesser proirity and fewer cherries.
All cherries would be nice ...right and exactly as we imagine them in size, color and vibrance....
right???
But only amatuers and members of the public have the luxury to think like that.
Its not exactly like ordering exactly what you want at Carls Jr or Wendys.
Steve
Huh?
Of course you get things you don't order.
Importers sure do anyway and routinely.
To be to fastidious and high-minded about it would hardly be productive as its impossible to get exactly what you actually want owing to the fact that nature doesn't provide the ultra this or exquisite that on demand and according to correct timetables.
Stocklists are often more like general templates or wish-lists.
"Hey, we didn't order those 18 orange shoulder tangs!" is hardly newsworthy.
"Hey we ordered 700 yellow tangs but this can [ container] is half empty even though we have to pay for the full thing!"
Or "HEY, I ordered 15 green hammers, 10 red scolmias, 12 red yumas and 6 red lord howensis....and all I got were the common things on the list like goniporas, lobos, sarcos and bubbles!"
In defense of this institutional bait and switch let me say that when the cherries are gone and 2,0000 items remain, someone has to take em to keep the trade alive and cash flowing.
And the more fastidious one is about it the smaller his orders and importance become to the shipper.
If you get dogged on this one, you may get a nice fill on the next.
Whiners and cherry pickers may get lesser proirity and fewer cherries.
All cherries would be nice ...right and exactly as we imagine them in size, color and vibrance....
right???But only amatuers and members of the public have the luxury to think like that.
Its not exactly like ordering exactly what you want at Carls Jr or Wendys.
Steve
dizzy":1r3gc834 said:
Except for the posts that violate the UA, I totally agree. As I said, the content was great, but the way some of the content was expressed was not. I agree that it is a must read, but I fear that the past reputation of this forum encourages many people not to look at it, and that it encourages lurking rather than participation. I think that reputation is changing, and I don't want to see it slip back.
BTW, we are looking for another moderator for this forum. If anyone has any suggestions please PM me.
Thanks.
cortez marine":1671rxmf said:Maybe this industry is different, but its really the first one I have ever heard of where you actually get something you didn't order....
Huh?
Of course you get things you don't order.
Importers sure do anyway and routinely.
To be to fastidious and high-minded about it would hardly be productive as its impossible to get exactly what you actually want owing to the fact that nature doesn't provide the ultra this or exquisite that on demand and according to correct timetables.
Stocklists are often more like general templates or wish-lists.
"Hey, we didn't order those 18 orange shoulder tangs!" is hardly newsworthy.
"Hey we ordered 700 yellow tangs but this can [ container] is half empty even though we have to pay for the full thing!"
Or "HEY, I ordered 15 green hammers, 10 red scolmias, 12 red yumas and 6 red lord howensis....and all I got were the common things on the list like goniporas, lobos, sarcos and bubbles!"
In defense of this institutional bait and switch let me say that when the cherries are gone and 2,0000 items remain, someone has to take em to keep the trade alive and cash flowing.
And the more fastidious one is about it the smaller his orders and importance become to the shipper.
If you get dogged on this one, you may get a nice fill on the next.
Whiners and cherry pickers may get lesser proirity and fewer cherries.
All cherries would be nice ...right and exactly as we imagine them in size, color and vibrance....
But only amatuers and members of the public have the luxury to think like that.
Its not exactly like ordering exactly what you want at Carls Jr or Wendys.
Steve
I still don't understand why all you fish stores put up with it.
So what if the wholesaler gets 200000000 million bazillion yellow tangs, you don't have to actually buy them from the wholesaler.
The whole wholesaler to lfs relationship sounds like it was forced to be a certain way back in the beginning and is in need of revamping. In these days of computer tracking it should be possible for a wholesaler to list exactly what is in stock and sell from that list.
Maybe a form of "Reform" is in order, but not in the collecting side, but on the distribution side.....
knucklehead":2256l4ye said:cortez marine":2256l4ye said:Maybe this industry is different, but its really the first one I have ever heard of where you actually get something you didn't order....
Huh?
Of course you get things you don't order.
Importers sure do anyway and routinely.
To be to fastidious and high-minded about it would hardly be productive as its impossible to get exactly what you actually want owing to the fact that nature doesn't provide the ultra this or exquisite that on demand and according to correct timetables.
Stocklists are often more like general templates or wish-lists.
"Hey, we didn't order those 18 orange shoulder tangs!" is hardly newsworthy.
"Hey we ordered 700 yellow tangs but this can [ container] is half empty even though we have to pay for the full thing!"
Or "HEY, I ordered 15 green hammers, 10 red scolmias, 12 red yumas and 6 red lord howensis....and all I got were the common things on the list like goniporas, lobos, sarcos and bubbles!"
In defense of this institutional bait and switch let me say that when the cherries are gone and 2,0000 items remain, someone has to take em to keep the trade alive and cash flowing.
And the more fastidious one is about it the smaller his orders and importance become to the shipper.
If you get dogged on this one, you may get a nice fill on the next.
Whiners and cherry pickers may get lesser proirity and fewer cherries.
All cherries would be nice ...right and exactly as we imagine them in size, color and vibrance....
But only amatuers and members of the public have the luxury to think like that.
Its not exactly like ordering exactly what you want at Carls Jr or Wendys.
Steve
I still don't understand why all you fish stores put up with it.
So what if the wholesaler gets 200000000 million bazillion yellow tangs, you don't have to actually buy them from the wholesaler.
The whole wholesaler to lfs relationship sounds like it was forced to be a certain way back in the beginning and is in need of revamping. In these days of computer tracking it should be possible for a wholesaler to list exactly what is in stock and sell from that list.
Maybe a form of "Reform" is in order, but not in the collecting side, but on the distribution side.....
ding ding ding !
it IS being revamped-some folks just don't like the way the revamping is going :wink:
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
gets 200,000,000 million bazillion yellow tangs...
Thats only 200 million, and the're not Brazilian.
[oops, I just added this smiley so as to define where the jokes are in case of being taken seriously...which often happens]
They don't in turn get forced on the retailer...but things understandably get deleted or unfilled on the orders.
If you have say...6 good blue xenias and everyone wants 2 or 3....there will of course not be enough to go around.
So, do ya first come first serve....or do ya frontload the loyal customers...or do ya portion em out to 6 of the better ones?
No one however should develop a sense of entitlement over a dealers stock based on a self sense of being special.
Steve
Thats only 200 million, and the're not Brazilian.
[oops, I just added this smiley so as to define where the jokes are in case of being taken seriously...which often happens]
They don't in turn get forced on the retailer...but things understandably get deleted or unfilled on the orders.
If you have say...6 good blue xenias and everyone wants 2 or 3....there will of course not be enough to go around.
So, do ya first come first serve....or do ya frontload the loyal customers...or do ya portion em out to 6 of the better ones?
No one however should develop a sense of entitlement over a dealers stock based on a self sense of being special.
Steve
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