Pro cyanide article
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To be fare it might have been nice if the fact that testing of fish for cyanide CDT during the last four years of the program , 1998 1999 2000 2001 the average rate of poisoned MO fish was only about 20 percent. With some years only about ten percent.
As the paper is written , the readers have no way one knowing that even if they were to purchase a fish from the Philppines......the hobbyists would have less then a twenty percent chance of obtaining a tainted fish.
To red flag all fish from PI, is kinda unfair to the 80 percent of fish found to have no trace of cyanide.
I doubt that you would like to have your work lumped together with other authors like Hugo or Frank .
It seems unfair to leave the reader unaware of the fact that most PI fish are not collected with poison and that even fewer poison collected fish make it to their local LFS. ( if we are to beleive that poisoned fish are less able to make it through the aditional stress of shipping) it may very well be that less then ten percent of PI fish in the retail stores are cyanide collected.
:wink:
As the paper is written , the readers have no way one knowing that even if they were to purchase a fish from the Philppines......the hobbyists would have less then a twenty percent chance of obtaining a tainted fish.
To red flag all fish from PI, is kinda unfair to the 80 percent of fish found to have no trace of cyanide.
I doubt that you would like to have your work lumped together with other authors like Hugo or Frank .
It seems unfair to leave the reader unaware of the fact that most PI fish are not collected with poison and that even fewer poison collected fish make it to their local LFS. ( if we are to beleive that poisoned fish are less able to make it through the aditional stress of shipping) it may very well be that less then ten percent of PI fish in the retail stores are cyanide collected.
:wink:
Kalk, It would have been nice if StevenPro had cited the paper that I wrote with other IMA participants, concerning CDT testing conducted from 1996 to 2000. Likewise, he did not present the more recent paper that I co-authored with Ferdinand Cruz concerning fish mortality.
While Steven has put in a good effort on his paper, there are a number of misinterpretations and innacurate statements, that I could have helped him correct, if he had asked me to review the paper. He did send me an early version, but he did not ask for a thorough review.
PS-I will post the panelists' names and the titles of their talks for MO06 under a separate thread today.
Peter Rubec
While Steven has put in a good effort on his paper, there are a number of misinterpretations and innacurate statements, that I could have helped him correct, if he had asked me to review the paper. He did send me an early version, but he did not ask for a thorough review.
PS-I will post the panelists' names and the titles of their talks for MO06 under a separate thread today.
Peter Rubec
Good points Peter. Make sure you express them at Steve's forum. Link provided below.
The proper place to respnd is really http://reefcentral.com/forums/forumdisp ... orumid=232
I think unfortunately at the end the article turned into a bit too much editorializing.
"Reward with your purchases the good vendors who sell only healthy, net caught fishes, and punish the bad apples who specialize in cheap, suspect animals by boycotting their stores. I have no sympathy for, and will not be kept up at night over, the thought of unscrupulous or ignorant shop owners going out of business because no one will purchase their suspect animals. It is time to cull the herd and drive these people out of the industry."
He made absolutely no mention of the big boy online stores like Drs. Foster & Smith, Marine Depot, or That Fish Place, that spend big bucks advertising on RC. Talk about selling cheap suspect fish. :roll: The truth is these guys are forcing the cutthroat competition that leads to stores having to try to compete. Overall I thought he did a good job of reporting the available information. It seems to me that the message RC wants the article writers to weave into the text is that online is good, lfs is bad. If that was wanted they wanted, they should have been satisfied. I'm sure it pleases the banner ad guys everytime they see lfs bashing. I'm suspecting some minor form of brain washing is actually taking place when all dissenting views get censored. When the same message gets repeated over and over and over enough times by enough people there begins to be very little tolerance for opposing views. And when someone does try to say something against the desired direction of thinking they get shouted down or ostracized. I'm truly in awe of the power of the internet and realize when used in combination with censorship how easily it can be abused. I'm certain it is not just our industry that is being subjected to this type of influence.
Mitch
The proper place to respnd is really http://reefcentral.com/forums/forumdisp ... orumid=232
I think unfortunately at the end the article turned into a bit too much editorializing.
"Reward with your purchases the good vendors who sell only healthy, net caught fishes, and punish the bad apples who specialize in cheap, suspect animals by boycotting their stores. I have no sympathy for, and will not be kept up at night over, the thought of unscrupulous or ignorant shop owners going out of business because no one will purchase their suspect animals. It is time to cull the herd and drive these people out of the industry."
He made absolutely no mention of the big boy online stores like Drs. Foster & Smith, Marine Depot, or That Fish Place, that spend big bucks advertising on RC. Talk about selling cheap suspect fish. :roll: The truth is these guys are forcing the cutthroat competition that leads to stores having to try to compete. Overall I thought he did a good job of reporting the available information. It seems to me that the message RC wants the article writers to weave into the text is that online is good, lfs is bad. If that was wanted they wanted, they should have been satisfied. I'm sure it pleases the banner ad guys everytime they see lfs bashing. I'm suspecting some minor form of brain washing is actually taking place when all dissenting views get censored. When the same message gets repeated over and over and over enough times by enough people there begins to be very little tolerance for opposing views. And when someone does try to say something against the desired direction of thinking they get shouted down or ostracized. I'm truly in awe of the power of the internet and realize when used in combination with censorship how easily it can be abused. I'm certain it is not just our industry that is being subjected to this type of influence.
Mitch
Mitch, We all have different points of view, which is partly dependent on our training and occupations. I think that your viewpoints about brick and mortar versus on-line sales are important.
PS-JT had the name right, Rudy Batara is the Indonesian who was at the meeting of industry importers/exporters with Paul Holthus of MAC held several years ago in Los Angeles (although I was not there). It is alleged that Batara distributes cyanide to collectors in metal kerosene cans. Since, sodium cyanide does not dissolve in either gasoline or kerosene, cyanide tablets are commonly smuggled to villages in containers with these fuels. This explains why Bob Fenner noted that cyanide squirt bottles he observed in Indonesia smelled of kerosene (see the comment in his paper in the Conscientious Marine Aquarists).
In any event, there is nothing "very good" about cyanide, and it use for cyanide fishing needs to be stopped NOW. Let's stop tolerating its use. The only valid question should be "What is the best way to stop the distribution and sale of cyanide to collectors, and how do we get the collectors to stop using it?"
Peter Rubec
PS-JT had the name right, Rudy Batara is the Indonesian who was at the meeting of industry importers/exporters with Paul Holthus of MAC held several years ago in Los Angeles (although I was not there). It is alleged that Batara distributes cyanide to collectors in metal kerosene cans. Since, sodium cyanide does not dissolve in either gasoline or kerosene, cyanide tablets are commonly smuggled to villages in containers with these fuels. This explains why Bob Fenner noted that cyanide squirt bottles he observed in Indonesia smelled of kerosene (see the comment in his paper in the Conscientious Marine Aquarists).
In any event, there is nothing "very good" about cyanide, and it use for cyanide fishing needs to be stopped NOW. Let's stop tolerating its use. The only valid question should be "What is the best way to stop the distribution and sale of cyanide to collectors, and how do we get the collectors to stop using it?"
Peter Rubec
Peter,
There is something gone terribly wrong when someone like Just Dave who operates a very good local fish store is afraid or ashamed to mention that fact on these online Reef Keeping sites. TERRIBLY WRONG.
PS
I don't believe it is only Dave that feels that way. LFS are being forced to post incognito if they want to make a point. 8O There seems to be this atmosphere of hatred toward the retail stores these days. I blame people like Eric B for making it cool to tear apart the stores.
There is something gone terribly wrong when someone like Just Dave who operates a very good local fish store is afraid or ashamed to mention that fact on these online Reef Keeping sites. TERRIBLY WRONG.
PS
I don't believe it is only Dave that feels that way. LFS are being forced to post incognito if they want to make a point. 8O There seems to be this atmosphere of hatred toward the retail stores these days. I blame people like Eric B for making it cool to tear apart the stores.
Peter,
Is the responsibility of the Filipino government to track the cyanide that gets into the country. As you know the company importing cyanide must submit a request to the Bureau of Fisheries and Aquatic Resources (BFAR) along with a complete list of the companies or individuals buying the cyanide. It is BFAR's responsibility to assure that cyanide imported doesn't get in the wrong hands.
BFAR fails to control the fisheries of marine ornamentals as well as fails to make sure that cyanide imported is not getting in the wrong hands. BFAR MUST have the necessary human and economic resources to tackle these two important issues, otherwise we are going to keep asking the same question we had during the last two decades.
Is the responsibility of the Filipino government to track the cyanide that gets into the country. As you know the company importing cyanide must submit a request to the Bureau of Fisheries and Aquatic Resources (BFAR) along with a complete list of the companies or individuals buying the cyanide. It is BFAR's responsibility to assure that cyanide imported doesn't get in the wrong hands.
BFAR fails to control the fisheries of marine ornamentals as well as fails to make sure that cyanide imported is not getting in the wrong hands. BFAR MUST have the necessary human and economic resources to tackle these two important issues, otherwise we are going to keep asking the same question we had during the last two decades.
It's not that I'm afraid or ashamed to mention it, the reason I choose not to advertise it is that I pursue/contribute to these forums as a hobbyist (which is amazing that I still am) and don't want the issues I take interest in to become clouded nor do I want my motives suspect. However there is no way to separate the hobbyist in me from the LFS operator so I'm careful about saying things that look like advertising . I also don't mention, publicly, vendors that I'm happy/unhappy with as well because I don't want to come across as pushing some agenda. I also do not want to violate any TOS agreements.
I have strong views/opinions on the subjects of the internet , LFS , and Big Box LFS(I don't view the three as enemies) but I don't know that this thread is the place to voice them as it is about a cyanide usage article.
The reason I don't post much over here was stated by one of the site admins,Righty. That reason keeps more 'n myself from contributing but not from viewing. Some of us end up talking about the issues but not here.
I've often wondered if a forum that was open for the industry, but closed to the gen pop ,wouldn't be more productive. It would be very difficult if not impossible to determine who should or should not be allowed access.
So this one time and if it is a TOS Violation I apologize.
David Cook
Kermit's Reef
LFS operator
I have strong views/opinions on the subjects of the internet , LFS , and Big Box LFS(I don't view the three as enemies) but I don't know that this thread is the place to voice them as it is about a cyanide usage article.
The reason I don't post much over here was stated by one of the site admins,Righty. That reason keeps more 'n myself from contributing but not from viewing. Some of us end up talking about the issues but not here.
I've often wondered if a forum that was open for the industry, but closed to the gen pop ,wouldn't be more productive. It would be very difficult if not impossible to determine who should or should not be allowed access.
So this one time and if it is a TOS Violation I apologize.
David Cook
Kermit's Reef
LFS operator
Jaime, It is not just BFAR that is responsible for enforcing laws against the sale, distribution, and use of cyanide. Actually, BFAR has no law enforcement staff (similar to for example, the Marine Patrol of Florida Fish & Wildlife). There are administrative orders that have been issued through the Department of Environment and Natural Resources (DENR) (another government department). The following quote is taken from Rubec et al. (2003)
"Because a large part of the approximately 6000 metric tonnes of sodium cyanide imported annually to the Philippines is used in the mining industy, the Environmental Management Bureau (EMB) and the Mines and Geosciences Bureau (MGB) within DENR, and BFAR within the Department of Agriculture, agreed to complement their efforts in the issuance of Inspection Certificates (IIC) for cyanide (Cardenas and Liao 1999). The EMB also signed an agreement with the Bureau of Customs to regulate the entry of chemicals including cyanide and cyanide compounds."
The EMB issued a Departmental Administrative Order (DAO 29) which stipulates that all manufacturers, importers, and distributors of cyanide and cyanide-related compounds must register and secure a license from EMB before the puchase and use of such chemicals. Users must also submit to EMB a Cyanide Management Plan and keep records of how the cyanide was used".
Despite these new laws and administrative orders, I was distressed to learn, during my recent trip to PI in November 2005, that cyanide can still be purchased (presumably by middlemen and collectors) from Naeco Chemicals (the same company exposed by Steve Robinson as being a source of cyanide in the mid 1980's).
I agree with Jaime that it is the failure of the Philippine government agencies to enforce their laws and regulations (not just BFAR) that has allowed cyanide fishing to persist in the Philippines. Likewise, the Indonesian government has made even less effort (NONE that I know of) to enforce its laws/regulations against cyanide fishing.
Peter Rubec
"Because a large part of the approximately 6000 metric tonnes of sodium cyanide imported annually to the Philippines is used in the mining industy, the Environmental Management Bureau (EMB) and the Mines and Geosciences Bureau (MGB) within DENR, and BFAR within the Department of Agriculture, agreed to complement their efforts in the issuance of Inspection Certificates (IIC) for cyanide (Cardenas and Liao 1999). The EMB also signed an agreement with the Bureau of Customs to regulate the entry of chemicals including cyanide and cyanide compounds."
The EMB issued a Departmental Administrative Order (DAO 29) which stipulates that all manufacturers, importers, and distributors of cyanide and cyanide-related compounds must register and secure a license from EMB before the puchase and use of such chemicals. Users must also submit to EMB a Cyanide Management Plan and keep records of how the cyanide was used".
Despite these new laws and administrative orders, I was distressed to learn, during my recent trip to PI in November 2005, that cyanide can still be purchased (presumably by middlemen and collectors) from Naeco Chemicals (the same company exposed by Steve Robinson as being a source of cyanide in the mid 1980's).
I agree with Jaime that it is the failure of the Philippine government agencies to enforce their laws and regulations (not just BFAR) that has allowed cyanide fishing to persist in the Philippines. Likewise, the Indonesian government has made even less effort (NONE that I know of) to enforce its laws/regulations against cyanide fishing.
Peter Rubec
just dave":2sry1kdf said:
Let me make a couple of points. One I agree with Jaime and Peter that the best place to fix the cyanide problem is over in PI or Indo, by their governments. Editorializing against lfs, (whether they deserve it or not) will not stop the problem. And if you want to editoralize then do so by all means, but not in the context of a factual article. This thread is about that article and that is definitely part of the article. My problem with Steven's article was that he failed to address the part the big online advertisers play creating a need for cheap fish to compete. I thought I was a little clearer on that. Sorry.
Also hiding who we really are can be very damaging when the truth is dicovered. If you don't believe me just look at the mess over there. Better I think to be up front about who we are and what our experiences are. I've had experiences with dozens and dozens of the same species in the twenty years I've been in the business. How does that not qualfiy me to have an opinion that is at least equal to someone who has kept maybe one or two individuals of a certain species? I don't understand how owning a local fish store makes you unqualified to have an honest opinion.
Mitch
PS
I'm getting sick to death of political correctness.
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
This will be the first Marine Ornamentals without Lino Alvarez...the country co-ordinator for MAC for 5 years.
We'll also miss Dave Vosleer and Sylvia Spalding.
We will even miss more folks this year.
There is something very amiss at MAC these days and the decimation of staff that stands up for their findings and beliefs [ even small ones] is a real story to behold.
It will come out before long and some of you will be amazed.
Earning the right to say "I told you so"....is near".
Steve...
We'll also miss Dave Vosleer and Sylvia Spalding.
We will even miss more folks this year.
There is something very amiss at MAC these days and the decimation of staff that stands up for their findings and beliefs [ even small ones] is a real story to behold.
It will come out before long and some of you will be amazed.
Earning the right to say "I told you so"....is near".
Steve...
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
Mitch,
To you he will always be polite as the confidentiality agreement insures.
Steve
Let me be clear...there is trouble in paradise this week
To you he will always be polite as the confidentiality agreement insures.
Steve
Let me be clear...there is trouble in paradise this week
Mitch,
I have no idea why you think I am pro online and negative to brick & mortar shops. In fact, just the opposite is true. Additionally, I give several tips in the sidebar section of looking at fish and trying to determine if they might have been exposed to cyanide. None of this can be done when purchasing fish sight unseen over the internet.
I have no idea why you think I am pro online and negative to brick & mortar shops. In fact, just the opposite is true. Additionally, I give several tips in the sidebar section of looking at fish and trying to determine if they might have been exposed to cyanide. None of this can be done when purchasing fish sight unseen over the internet.
Steven I just think in the context of that particular article it was a bit unbalanced toward the bad lfs. I like my news fair and balanced. I don't mean to be too critical of your article because the editoralizing was a small part overall. And I like and respect you. I do sort of hold the belief that making money is a concern of the owner of the board, so critizing the big spenders will NOT be tolerated. Even Dr. Ron aludes to that in his blog.
Mitch
Here, I'm going to edit and add this from Dr. Ron's blog. Yesterday I believe. http://drrons.blogspot.com/
"Well, there are are few forums out there that are not "in it for the money." I think this is because they haven't figured out how to be "in it for the money." RC was/is definitely a money making proposition and there was some significant pressure at times to avoid upsetting sponsors. Our new forum is also commercial; probably more overtly so. On the other hand, the sponsoring is up front and obvious."
Mitch
Here, I'm going to edit and add this from Dr. Ron's blog. Yesterday I believe. http://drrons.blogspot.com/
"Well, there are are few forums out there that are not "in it for the money." I think this is because they haven't figured out how to be "in it for the money." RC was/is definitely a money making proposition and there was some significant pressure at times to avoid upsetting sponsors. Our new forum is also commercial; probably more overtly so. On the other hand, the sponsoring is up front and obvious."
cortez marine":1uxnp5ob said:
When I said that eachone of the "links"/stakeholders of this trade should be part of the process of change I included the Filipino government.
I have a question. Is someone from the Department of Environment and Natural Resources (DENR) or the BFAR, both Filipino government agencies, going to be at MO 06? They must be the ones leading the programs oriented to protect coral reefs and natural resources in the Philippines.
That may have been Dr. Ron's experience, but I was never pressured to change anything I ever wrote for RK to appease sponsors. In fact, I have a draft of an article that I am working on for RK titled "Selecting Healthy & Appropriate Marine Fishes" and I explicitly state my strong preference for buying fishes from a local fish store versus online. During the editorial process so far, no one has made any comments about not angering sponsors to me.
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