Does the hobby die without FedEx?

[Anonymous]

It seems to me that people seem to have no problem demanding/asking other people to reveal things that they wont reveal about their own business. Do you provide a list of wholesalers you use to your competitors that you have a business advantage over?

Actually Rich we don't really have any other stores in our city that are heavy into saltwater. But to answer your question. Yes I do sit down and talk about wholesalers to the other retailers I know in the region, and yes they are competition to be sure. We talk about the good wholesalers we want to see succeed and we recommend them to each other, we also talk about the ones that are stabbing us in the back. You really should do a Loveland or Royal show sometime Rich, it is fascinating gossip.
Mitch

Thanks Mitch. Consistency makes me shut up!

 

[Race]

Mitch,
Interesting your comment about writing a book on the industry history. I have only been around about ten years as a hobbyist and direct industry player. I have however been in the pet industry for 25 years, sharing many of the same industry companies.

I have been keeping mental and written notes, of particular on the aquarium trade, including the personal performance histories of some on this forum. The general pet trade is far more above board and would not make good reading.

I have always felt that, time permitting, I will write the "tell all" book on this industry. I keep a particular eye on those who say one thing and do another--- or just as bad, keep reinventing themselves--- as if the past does not matter.

I am not talking about personal business owners such as yourself but rather the "corruption" located behind the scenes at the industry level. In one way it is fascinating while at the same time deplorable. Simply being deplorable would not make good reading.

Today, no promises just lots of notes. This board would be turned upside down if I revealed who is really buying from who and the associated business ties. I still have much to learn in separating fact from fiction and it is ever changing, as we speak.

This board helps but I will tell you much of what you read here concerning the industry is fiction and speculation.

Race

 

[JennM]

It seems to me that people seem to have no problem demanding/asking other people to reveal things that they wont reveal about their own business. Do you provide a list of wholesalers you use to your competitors that you have a business advantage over?

Actually Rich we don't really have any other stores in our city that are heavy into saltwater. But to answer your question. Yes I do sit down and talk about wholesalers to the other retailers I know in the region, and yes they are competition to be sure. We talk about the good wholesalers we want to see succeed and we recommend them to each other, we also talk about the ones that are stabbing us in the back. You really should do a Loveland or Royal show sometime Rich, it is fascinating gossip.
Mitch

Thanks Mitch. Consistency makes me shut up!

I too, talk about suppliers with other retailers - Rob from Rob's Reef calls me every so often and we chat about this and that, and I was at the Royal show and had a good discussion with a bunch of retailers about suppliers - and MAC (that's a whole other post!)...

Jenn

 

[nanocat]

Perhaps I just missed it, but if there were no FedX, just exactly how would these LFS that the hobbiest should run to GET their livestock in the stores? Trucks?

 

[JennM]

Perhaps I just missed it, but if there were no FedX, just exactly how would these LFS that the hobbiest should run to GET their livestock in the stores? Trucks?

The only livestock supplier I use that uses FedEx is ORA for tank raised stuff.

Everybody else ships airport to airport, in my case, Delta. Suppliers have trucks that deliver the orders to the airport, the airlines send the fish to the destination airports, and LFS staff pick up the fish at the airport.

Around here Tuesday is usually "fish day" at ATL.

If a LFS isn't anywhere near an airport, that could be a problem - but how does FedEx do it? They don't have a Star-Trek-style transporter - they put it on trucks/planes/trucks....

I imagine some remotely located LFS might use FedEx to get their orders, but I can tell you, it's expensive. Earlier in this thread I mentioned that a few weeks ago I shipped one box of frags for a friend, to CA. That one box, just 18 lbs, cost $137 to send. I nearly had an anyurism - but it was on my friend's dime - so whatever he wanted, he got.

It cost me $97.39 to have 105 lbs shipped from California to ATL on Delta. I picked it up at the airport - so add $15 in gas for a round trip - that's still a fraction of the cost of sending FedEx.

One more reason why I laugh when I read nonsense threads by hobbyists who see a fish invoice, and ***** about the "insane markups"... sure the fish cost $X but they don't notice the box charge on the bottom line of the invoice, they don't see the freight bill (air or FedEx)... never mind the operating cost of a store.... The fish costs $X plus their proportion of box, their proportion of freight (let's not forget that water is heavy and the fish has to arrive in water...freight on that isn't free!).... and so forth.

If I had to use FedEx for my livestock shipments my prices would have to skyrocket.

If FedEx stopped carrying livestock tomorrow, it wouldn't bother me a bit. I'm sure ORA could send a truck to their nearest airport.

Jenn

 

[bookfish]

Perhaps I just missed it, but if there were no FedX, just exactly how would these LFS that the hobbiest should run to GET their livestock in the stores? Trucks?

I buy from a few local wholesalers here in the Bay Area. Drive over, hand select livestock, back to the store and break out the drip lines. Some of these places also have their own trucks for regional deliveries.

 

[Race]

I do not think many in the hobby realize how much business is in areas where historically, and today, there are no marine LFS within 75 miles, let alone one with a selection.

Remember that I live in the land of Hank Jr's--"A Country Boy Can Survive" which is 7 hours north of Chicago. At our 2007 Coral Conference we had over 600 hobbyists join us of which at least half do not live within 90 miles of a marine LFS, let alone a quality one. Our nearest Petco is 75 miles---$35.00 worth of "that there cornfuel" in the truck perhaps,--- round trip eh?

With the internet, the hobby has expanded rapidly into the rural areas where I survive. The net result may be zero because the metropolitan areas have too many marine stores, hence they come and go.

There are those who live in areas that are not at all in touch with my rural and growing market. In many of these areas there is not even a regional airport within 75 miles. And you should visit a rural regional airport. The same person in Rhinelander, Wisconsin takes your ticket and luggage then checks you on the Northwest plane. That is the market where I concentrate my efforts, not Atlanta, Chicago, L.A., Miami, San Francisco and the likes.

Just another perspective which I believe those in the metropolitan areas are missing. That is my "internet market" that so depends on FedEX. The dropshippers ( livestock and hardgoods) realize this and it has created new markets for them. Good business moves.

Again, in reading posts from Atlanta, L.A. and others it is clear that many really do not understand where the market "is" growing. The big industry players, hardgoods and livestock wholesalers, understand it which is why they spend so much time visiting us in Northern Wisconsin. Many who make their living stuck in a box have no clue on the overall marketplace. You especially have to take California out of my sales equation. That market is not the reality for me, or even close. Hank's folks are my main hope, they are in little towns all over this land.

As ole Hank would say " We can skin a buck and we can run a trotline" and now by gawd we can grow coral in Wisconsin---and coral we grow!

While others complain, I will just keep taken the tractor another round, another round, another round.

Be up before daybreak, goin duck hunt'n in the crick ----Race

 

[treny]

it goes like this...

(We can skin a buck and we can run a trotline) not trapline..

I understand what everyone is saying but I will support my LFS over any online place. I believe in the little guy tring to support his or her family in something they love to do. Not a big company that can afford to send a another fish out to you. becuse they sell more and if one out of 20 come up dead it's no big deal!!! But to a LFS it is..

 

[Race]

Treny,
Glad you have one close. Support them by all means.

 

[Race]

While in the duck blind this morning Treny, I thought about your scenerio a bit.

I am sure you know that when your LFS has livestock shipped in from California that some of it dies before you ever see it. You know what, they ask for another one to be shipped back to them so that someone like you can buy it. Now when you buy it, it needs to be rebagged, reacclimated, requarantined and now some more will die. That is two transportations and stress, two quarantines, two acclimations and two high mortality periods. May be twice the death rate!!! That is right, you may kill twice as many fish and coral as should have been.

Here is my suggestion if you really love and are concerned about livestock. Have it shipped only ONE TIME--direct to your home, acclimate and quarantine ONCE, remove any that die, and then, should any not make it--- have your Guarantee money including shipping refunded to you.

Now, take any money that you may have saved or recovered from the overall process and give it to your local fish store to feed their families.

You will have done the Oceans and the livestock a huge favor by reducing the industry's death rates and you have still provided food for the families. Do it right and you may even get a tax deduction. If I were you, I would feel great.

 

[bookfish]

Race, if you reread my post (shouldn't take long as it's short) you'll see that I was simply stating a fact in response to a question. I find your assumptions about my knowledge base to be insulting. I did not comment AT ALL on any of your plans, your company, your motives, your knowledge base or anything else directly related to your posts on this thread. I do find it interesting that you assume I'm out of touch with the rural realities just as easily and with as broad a stroke as you assume your customers know best. Given the easy assumption you made about me without knowing me at all, it calls into doubt your assumptions about your customer base. You do know what they say about assumptions no?

 

[Race]

In no way was I trying to insult you personally, sorry. My message was to the audience which does not understand that the "net" has at least some merit. I was pointing out that California is different with the truck pick up concept. Once you head east that cannot happen.

My stats are not merely assumptions. Every package that we have sent out in the past 25 years is carefully tracked via a zip code address. This data is then pied, bar graphed etc for promotional study by us in house and the national data banks.

I am sorry if I came across wrong and please accept my apologies.

Race

 

[treny]

true but not true.. lets say I buy a PBT or a copperband from my LFS and it dies (which I have before) I probly won't buy it again but you guy's will just keep sending my another one.. which one is better killing one fish or just keep killing fish until I can get one to live. And thats me I keep my tank in good shape. just think about all the people out there that doesn't have a clue on what they need and can keep a live. Like you have Bat fish on your site. 99% of people can't keep them alive.. Now who is killing more fish??? I'm not saying I buy everthing from my LFS, I just try to buy as much as I can becuse they help me out with my setup and water testing.

 

[Race]

Yes,

" from a personal service perspective, a good LFS with a guarantee is better than a quality internet site with the same guarantee"

Race Foster, October, 2007.

 

[bookfish]

In no way was I trying to insult you personally, sorry. My message was to the audience which does not understand that the "net" has at least some merit. I was pointing out that California is different with the truck pick up concept. Once you head east that cannot happen.

My stats are not merely assumptions. Every package that we have sent out in the past 25 years is carefully tracked via a zip code address. This data is then pied, bar graphed etc for promotional study by us in house and the national data banks.

I am sorry if I came across wrong and please accept my apologies.

Race

Apology accepted, Thanks. I'll also admit i may have had too much coffee before replying to that last post!

 

[Race]

You do a wonderful job and I realize at times I make it tough on you. Very knowledgeable people here and appreciated.

If the boards could show the real personalities I think we would do better. The emoticons just do not do it.

You guys are great---------Thanks, Race

 

[JennM]

true but not true.. lets say I buy a PBT or a copperband from my LFS and it dies (which I have before) I probly won't buy it again but you guy's will just keep sending my another one.. which one is better killing one fish or just keep killing fish until I can get one to live. And thats me I keep my tank in good shape. just think about all the people out there that doesn't have a clue on what they need and can keep a live. Like you have Bat fish on your site. 99% of people can't keep them alive.. Now who is killing more fish??? I'm not saying I buy everthing from my LFS, I just try to buy as much as I can becuse they help me out with my setup and water testing.

Treny, I think you exemplified my point very well. I'm taking some heat fro the local reef club over the post I copied and pasted from there Wish I could have worded it as well as you have - but that's exactly right... how many of a given specie does one "try" if they aren't assuming any risk? When the hobbyist bears most of the risk they are more apt (but not always) to be a bit more careful in selecting a specimen before they buy.

Buy from a LFS, see it, observe it, watch it behave and eat and be fairly certain of its condition before it goes home, accept a lesser guarantee period because the consumer is satisfied that the creature is in good health...

OR

Buy sight unseen, and rest assured because even if it croaks in the next 2 weeks, you can get another one for free.

It's the *mentality* behind the guarantee that bothers me the most I think - it's PROMPTING people into a 'don't worry, be happy' attitude. That might be fine with manufactured goods - as well it should be - that's a whole other kettle of fish. With living organisms that are already coming from some areas that are over-collected and over-taxed, it's not a good thing to promote an attitude of, "Oh well, I'll just get a free replacement".

Thanks for summing up my thoughts so neatly - and coming from a hobbyist's perspective, I really appreciate it.

Jenn

 

[Anonymous]

When the hobbyist bears most of the risk they are more apt (but not always) to be a bit more careful in selecting a specimen before they buy.

I that is an assumption that supports a certain viewpoint, but I think it doesn't reflect the greater reality.
Most hobbyists are beginners and don't know what to look for.
Many hobbyists will simply replace an animal when it dies because it is so cheap to do so (one of the biggest problems IMO with the hobby/industry).
In the Bay Area we are constantly trying to educate hobbyists from the cut flower mentality of reef husbandry and it is a Sisyphean task. With animals so cheap and so available, its hard to make people care. Many cant seem to grasp the idea of spending 40 dollars for an animal that is prolly more likely to live because they can also get the same kind of animal for 12 dollars at a bag sale or icky LFS.

Buy from a LFS, see it, observe it, watch it behave and eat and be fairly certain of its condition before it goes home, accept a lesser guarantee period because the consumer is satisfied that the creature is in good health...

OR

Buy sight unseen, and rest assured because even if it croaks in the next 2 weeks, you can get another one for free.

Again, I wonder who is really doing this or if it is happening at all. Are there really people taking advantage of LA in this way? Maybe Race can let us know.
And again, there is the huge assumption that LFS know what they are doing. Jenn has a great store it appears, however, there are many more that are so good at caring at all, and people are lining up to give them their money because they provide the animals for such a low price. Ych!

It's the *mentality* behind the guarantee that bothers me the most I think - it's PROMPTING people into a 'don't worry, be happy' attitude. That might be fine with manufactured goods - as well it should be - that's a whole other kettle of fish. With living organisms that are already coming from some areas that are over-collected and over-taxed, it's not a good thing to promote an attitude of, "Oh well, I'll just get a free replacement".

In my neck of the woods it is the lack of responsibility after the sale that is responsible for so much death. The animal is so cheap, it it totally affordable to just try another one. Stores that offer higher quality animals go out of business!
I don't see anyone seeming to take advantage of the LA guarantee in such a crass way. It may be happing, but I don't see any evidence of it which is why I am wary of believing the extreme example is reality.

 

[JennM]

Thales - I'm not sure I'm following you.

On one hand you agree that there's a 'cut flower' mentality (I like that analogy, BTW), and on the other you seem to be saying that you don't think that hobbyists take that point of view.

Can you clarify? I do understand and appreciate that you can play Devil's Advocate at times - I'm just wondering what your genuine point of view is.

Jenn

 

[Anonymous]

Sorry for the confusion.

There is a cut flower mentality, but I think those that hold it generally won't buy from LA because they can get animals more cheaply and more easily from a LFS, and they can replace them 2 or 3 times for the initial cost of getting them from LA (including shipping). I think cut flower people are more likely to buy based on initial cost, and not care all that much about replacement promises. To reference an earlier thought, people don't buy at home depot for the return policy, they buy more because home depot is cheap.

I think that hobbyists that are buying from LA need to be more in the 'know' simply to know LA exists. Further, to buy from LA, you need to be willing to pay more, and, more importantly, you need to be able to wait for the package. I think there is more of a personal investment in ordering and waiting from LA than there is in getting something cheap at the LFS right now.

Are there people that would take advantage of the 14 day deal? Sure, but I think they aren't as common as some in this thread suggest, and I think that LA wouldn't be all that happy replacing a dead animal over and over again. Given what I have seen of their customer service, I would think they would not just replace an animal over and over again - it isn't cost effective and it doesn't satisfy the customer and it doesn't look good.

I think the LFS that care are far outnumbered by those that don't. I think the LFS that don't care are the ones that take value away from the animals. Given that I think most LFS don't care all that much, I think the drop shipping idea makes sense because it removes what I feel is one of the biggest killers of animals in the COC.

Thanks for asking and I hope that clears things up. Let me know if there is anything else I can illuminate about my thoughts.