Reality of Fish Collection

[IconicAquariums]

Herman, i think alot of the reasons that there are these practices is at the mercy of the importers. They want fish, regardless of how. It doesn't matter how they are obtained & treated. In the long run, I think paying them the bare minimum with no help & training is where it all started.

Again, people want to save money. This time, a few links away from us in the chain. Without spending money to properly train the divers/collectors & also people working at the import stations, fish are sacrificed. It's kinda like a restaraunt, with the bus boy doing everything. The people higher up don't do anything, they just sit back and watch. They bask in the glow of the money.

There isn't one group to blame, but we can start by helping for a change in the hobby. This is supposed to be a fun hobby, not a grim reality.

 

[joseney21]

well said herman...

maybe a good starting point would be to have something differentiating reefers from ADVANCED REEFERS, like the donate button under our avatar ...it may take too much involvement to monitor, but it would give people a something to motivate them when trying to keep a reef and follow the best practices with livestock in mind while doing so. might not be possible.it'll be like the IN crowd, and we all know everybody wants to be IN, lol.... just throwing ideas out there, don't want this thread to die a VENT thread for people who are trying to do the right thing....lets start NOW, and start changing things HERE.

 

[joseney21]

maybe we have to take the hobby a little more serious, and be a little more direct with people when they're F#$%ing up. most of us are adults and should be able to take a little criticism. so much passion for buying stuff, and for it's beauty....but none to keep it alive.

 

[jhale]

Joe,
I commend you for writing such a poignant, well thought description of a serious problem in our hobby.

If we could have a discussion that could change even a few peoples minds in buying fish that would be great. I think the more information those in the industry can provide the hobbiest the better off we will all be.

 

[IconicAquariums]

Jose, i agree. We are all adults. We should be more honest with ourselves first and foremost. What are we taking? What are we giving back? For what reason do we take things for granted? What is accomplished in the long run?

Our hobby has produced many sustainable methods of both breeding fish & propagating coral. Not everyone is going to come up with some crazy solution, but we can start by trying our best to research and communicate openly with each other.

To an extent, we bandaid problems. It's always someone else's fault. Fish dies, ah well, was a bad shipment. Coral dies, ah, shouldn't have bought it from someone. etc, etc.

I know that I feel bad when something dies in my hands. Even if it's just a snail...I paid money for someone to take it from where it lives so I could try my hand at it.

Eric Borneman had a quote he always posted, and I feel it applies to everything, not just this predatory coral. "50 hobbiests killing 50 dendronepthyas isn't research."

 

[jhale]

well said herman...

maybe a good starting point would be to have something differentiating reefers from ADVANCED REEFERS, like the donate button under our avatar ...it may take too much involvement to monitor, but it would give people a something to motivate them when trying to keep a reef and follow the best practices with livestock in mind while doing so. might not be possible.it'll be like the IN crowd, and we all know everybody wants to be IN, lol.... just throwing ideas out there, don't want this thread to die a VENT thread for people who are trying to do the right thing....lets start NOW, and start changing things HERE.

jose i've thought about this and think it's a great idea.
i'm really depressed when i see and read things on this site that show people just don't care about livestock. if we could educate the NY area about what Joe and Sean are talking about that would be the greatest thing this site could do in my opinion.

 

[prattreef]

I'm sure you know this already, but for those who don't, the situation in the Phillipines, and presumably in Indo is so convoluted and corrupt as to be a true cartel. The exporters sell cyanide to the (very) poor divers for profit and then refuse to buy fish from those divers who don't buy their cyanide or refuse to use cyanide at all. It's out right thuggery. Those who try to buck the system get very little support from importers on down the line. Disgusting really. And, it needs to be said, the health of the fish aren't even the biggest problem IMO. The cyanide kills coral heads and reef habitat, not to mention the divers themselves with long term exposure.

RD

 

[IconicAquariums]

Randy, another thing to consider is the method of which they dive. Many people don't use SCUBA, but rather a hookah. I've heard of horror stories when it was introduced into Tonga, and many natives met their fate when they were diving for the Japanese Cucumber craze years ago. This also makes it very difficult for outside divers to establish themselves.

joe

 

[Aqua Pro Builder]

Excellent Thread
I am not a Saint myself but this thread does bring more awareness.

 

[prattreef]

Agreed. Let's complicate this discussion even more. The fact is that the marine ornamental trade is really just the tip of the iceberg compared to the damage done by the food fish and other industry. While I strongly support aquaculture as the future of this hobby, the fact does remain that any aquaculture that takes places away from the native communities, takes money out of these very poor peoples pockets and forces them to turn to other means of income.. ie more destructive means!!! Therefore, I think the best interests of the reefs, the diver communities, and hobbyists lies with in-situ mariculture/aquaculture ventures tied to true training and demand for netcaught, drug free fish. When local populations see the alternatives for monetary reward for protecting their natural resources, I believe they will do so. Until then, they have little choice but feed their families as best they can. Thoughts? RD

 

[Aqua Pro Builder]

Let me add that info for you guys, a lot of the species we can get our hands on here in the USA is illegal to import into Hong Kong because the government has already realized the drug used in the fishing catching industry years back. Therefore, without the help of a government action, it's very hard to control the ill practice though.

 

[IconicAquariums]

I have mixed feelings on this. I agree, that people will do what it takes. But, in leui of previous ventures, it seems that some of the natives that are used to getting shafted would only do this until they found a way to get around the system.

I feel that people would embrace things promoting reef stability, but the facts are that a. no one seems to step up to the plate and provide funding & b. no one is going to stay there to ensure these procedures are carried out.

If there was a way to change it, i'd volunteer everything I have to make a difference. Unfortunately, I or any other would probably get shunned one way or another for wanting to bring forth change without a payroll stub.

 

[herman]

Where does it stop. Our oceans are so full of problems. Overfishing so we can enjoy sushi, cyanide so we can enjoy our tanks and it does not stop there. One destruction I have seen first hand is the Crown of thorns population problem in the Great Barrier Reef resulting from farm fertilizer runoff fueling algae growth. The farmers need to use fertilizers in order for the crops to grow to meet the demand. And it just goes on and on and on.........

Where do we start? How do we start?

 

[Tonyscoots84]

herman thats a great question but we as a family/reef club have to do something to stop these pieces of garbage from damaging these beautiful reefs from using harmful chemicals such as cyanide.... and also teach the newbies and elder reefers thats its not ok to buy up a whole bunch of fish and then have em die.... i think a start is to ensure we dont buy from a store who buys from a cyanide dealer... but how would we no whats wat.... i think we need to find out soon to save them before things get worse and then reefs are gone....

 

[Tonyscoots84]

Let me add that info for you guys, a lot of the species we can get our hands on here in the USA is illegal to import into Hong Kong because the government has already realized the drug used in the fishing catching industry years back. Therefore, without the help of a government action. It's very hard to control the ill practice though.

i got a way of stopping it.. buy only with that guarantee... only reputable companys will have it.. and it has to stop.. and even these whosalers have to stop supporting the problem to the cause.. its a business and they make a crap load of money off of it but how much do u have to kill and destroy before u cant sell anymore of it....

 

[masterswimmer]

joetbs, you were there. You saw this first hand. You mentioned you saw them puncture swim bladders. Was there a thug standing over you? Could you have said something while you were there? Not that it would have changed things, I'm trying to find out the level at which this thuggery exists.

We are looking to change things on this end, is there any political groups out there that are attempting to change things within their own countries? We love the reefs. They DEPEND on the very reefs they are killing.

You've given us some valuable insight as to the practices you saw during your time there, is it really possible to change it fromt this end? Be pragmatic with your response. Or is this a no win battle? If corruption runs deep there, who are we to possibly change it. Besides, we aren't the only reefkeepers, the rest of the world enjoys this hobby too.

I just saw the IMAX Deep Sea 3D and they BARELY touched on the destruction of the reefs. And not at all by the aquarists like us. It could have been a great venue for transmitting this very worthwhile scenario. If the reefs die, a whole lot of other sea life dies and the domino effect goes unbelievably deep with this chain reaction.

Russ

 

[Tonyscoots84]

and then no sea life whats so eva... it really is sad to no about this and cant even make a mark in stopping it. cause of the corruption.. i wonder and will be thinking of ideas........

 

[IconicAquariums]

Russ, i was there. I did mention things. It's more convenient for them to do it their way. And as the outcome is, I will never buy a fish or coral from there or recommend that anyone else does.

I'm not trying to win a battle. As much as I'd love to see reform, we're just at the surface of these issues. Before anything can be done, we need to raise awareness. Hopefully, in time, things will change.

joe

 

[masterswimmer]

Russ, i was there. I did mention things. It's more convenient for them to do it their way. And as the outcome is, I will never buy a fish or coral from there or recommend that anyone else does.

I'm not trying to win a battle. As much as I'd love to see reform, we're just at the surface of these issues. Before anything can be done, we need to raise awareness. Hopefully, in time, things will change.

joe

Exactly what I was referring to with the IMAX, a perfect opportunity to raise awareness. And when I say they scratched the surface on the reefs perishing, it was like a passing thought on their part. They basically showed how healthy reefs thrive.

It's going to be a long road. But there are some of us who do care, and will do the little bit we can to effect their pockets.

Russ

 

[cali_reef]

Joetbs,

Are you saying EVERY fish Fish Town sells are cyanide caught? maybe you didn't mean to stated that but sure looks that way by singling them out.

I dive for fun, I have been to some of the places in the Philippines and Bali where fish are collected for the hobby, I can tell you FIRST HAND(not heard, read, or "been told") not every single fish is caught using cyanide.

You have started a very good campaign of making people aware some of the problems in the industry, I applaud you for that. However, you should not smear LFS who happen to sell fish cheaper than others, including your self. I know Fish Town also sell fish from the Red Sea and Australia, does your "cheaper fish are cyanide caught" statement also apply to the fish they sell from those places?

Another question, do you only purchase fish from wholesalers that is selling 100% MAC certified fish? and do you know of any real wholesalers that only sell 100% MAC certified live stock? I some time wonder if it is possible for some of the MAC certified LFS do a bait and switch, how can a expert (let along an average hobbyist) tell the difference? The last time I checked MAC fishes don't have a passport (or an ID tag) attached to them. How do you know the veal you ate at some fancy restaurant is not pork? I can't and I grew up in a restaurant.

I would love the industry to have 100% of the live stock collected ethically, as much as I wish Detroit started building cars 30 years ago that don't emit harmful emissions and use petroleum based fuel. The world is not perfect and people(we) are taught to find the easiest(and cheapest) way to do things.

Happy reefing..:fishhit: