Reality of Fish Collection

[IconicAquariums]

Pierce, not everyone is using cyanide. There are a small number of facilities that are truely net caught. But the problem lies with some of them that claim to be Net caught and in reality are using drugs.

I know who FT gets their fish from, and I know the fish from that collector are caught unethically. The sad part is that even high end stores get their fish from the same person, so it is really not much better since it is impossible to know.

No wholesaler is 100% MAC certified but there are some that are making strides. Places like Seacrop and Mary have a good agenda and a strong campaign for ensuring healthy fish and promoting ethics. Fish can be labeled as MAC certified, but I have never seen any first hand. I think many people do not know what it is and are blind to the fact it exists. Unfortunately, with the LFS, it goes back to the bottom line is the dollar sign.

 

[Chiefmcfuz]

My opinion is this, I will gladly pay more for quality fish. I would like to not get hit over the head with a bat to pay for that quality. I hope that makes sense.

 

[ezee]

Joetbs,

I understand that we are sharing the woes of the industry, perhaps we can take some concrete steps. How about putting together a list for new people about what kinds of questions we can ask, things to look for, species to avoid, etc. Lamenting the poor state of things is great but change in the information age should start with the consumer.

For instance, do you think asking stores to set up reliable quarantine tanks is a worthwhile effort?

How about requesting that the store purchase from more expensive suppliers and requesting the shipping manifests?

As a side note. Although this is definitely an excellent topic, I agree with Pierce in his previous post. Discussing it in the broader scope of things is important but making general accusations targeted at certain organizations is not an acceptable way disseminating information. The impression that you just gave is that FT sells only cyanide caught fish. That is not educating, that is misinformation. I think you want to stay away from the impression that you are trying to advance a private agenda because this is a thread that can go somewhere.

E

 

[jhale]

ezee, I think if we could get a list of what stores import that would be great, but it would have to be accurate of course.

I don't think having stores set up QT's though is the issue, it would be nice if they would.

the issue here is trying to get the stores to order fish that have been ethically collected. but it seems that may be hard for even them to do for sure all the time.

I think education here is key, if you do not know why one store has the same fish for half the price of another one which one are you going to buy?

I for one always wanted to buy only net cought fish, or better yet tank raised fish. I have done that, with the exception of fish I have bought from other hobbiests.

 

[IconicAquariums]

E, i agree that wasn't a good example. I have no quarrels with FT except for their treatment of the fish and do not wish to cast any harm on them, as other stores get the same exact fish without being used as an example.

With that said, people should see first hand what is NOT an acceptable LFS.

Quarantines are a touchy subject. Where can a store house the fish? IMO, quarantine would be beneficial to not only the hobbyist but also the store. In a QT unhealthy fish would not be on display, not infecting other fish. The constant swapping of Wholesaler-Reseller-Hobbyist in such a short period of time is ridiculous. This on top of the fish not eating for previous weeks to prevent polluting their shipping water.

One local wholesaler did have a quarantine system up, and fish that went through it fared much better. But, for whatever reason it was taken down. Time is a big factor, and again, the fish need to be sold before they are unsellable.

QT's are still in their infantry, and until someone proves the benefits on a retail level, they will be overlooked. I know Sal was building one, but I never knew what came of that.

Regarding the cyanide, it's not easy to pinpoint which fish are and which aren't. One fish that is 99% of the time caught with cyanide is the Marine Betta. I have a hard time believing that pacific Cave Basses(lipoproma sp.) and other deepwater fish(especially Centropyge) are any different.

I honestly don't know where to start, other than awareness. Hopefully some of the LFS will read this and get some thoughts moving.

joe

 

[prattreef]

Again, I want to point those interested to the "Industry Behind the Hobby" forum on Reefs.Org. There are numerous massive threads that go back years on all of these related topics. The participants are quite often the most knowledgeable folks in the industry about these issues--- and yes there is alot of snipping and alot of MAC bashing, but more real info in one place than anywhere else. The discussions/debates lay bare the real complexity of the issues and difficulty of the solutions.

Randy

 

[IconicAquariums]

Here's a link to the aformentioned forum:

http://www.reefs.org/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=35&sid=926b797c4cd587f661deb69044abf2f9

 

[griMReefer]

Well said!!!! But unfortunately there are too many people even on this board that would prefer to pay next to nothing for self gratification. I dont even think half the people care whether a fish dies or not. They buy and buy and buy even though they have a tiny a$$ tank. It does not take a genius to know that they are killing a lot of their livestock and just replacing it with new ones.

Great article! I am impelled to echo Herman's passage, because it really summarizes what cruelty to our environment, and nature, too many reef aquarists are still doing.

I would not concentrate or single out "fish" -- it is ALL genre of SW livestock that are still being blasted, wild harvested by the money-chain from poor native gatherer to big exporters to the end of the line. My argument is that even though there are many more sub/species of coral that are being propagated than SW fish so far, it only takes a few visits to such popular (or notorious in some cases) retail sites as liveaquaria, aquacon, marinedepot, cquarium, and so on to witness that there are still a heavy perpetual stocking of "Diver's Den" on corals, live rock, clams, and other inverts in addition to all the imported fish. Having got out of the hobby for such reasons, I find myself coming back very limited to low impact species like clowns, neon gobies. I still want a regal angel or even a pair though, I dont know what to do about that :banghead: :redface: :smash:

 

[ezee]

Jhale,

Good point about the pricing and education. I am hoping that accurate records of purchases are available and plan to ask about manifests in the near future.

Joetbs,

I appreciate the recognition of that point. I think there are stores that still QT all of their fish (most of them very far away from NYC). They sell those fish at a much higher price but I would RUN to a LFS that did that even if they did charge much higher prices. The market is out there for more expensive fish that have been collected properly, QT'ed, etc.

We need to sell the idea that higher quality fish are worth the extra money, that higher quality is the only way to purchase in this hobby. Then I think things will begin to change. I spoke to some folks about this but the idea has failed to take. Hopefully there will be some change on this.

E

 

[DevIouS]

Pierce, not everyone is using cyanide. There are a small number of facilities that are truely net caught. But the problem lies with some of them that claim to be Net caught and in reality are using drugs.



I know who FT gets their fish from, and I know the fish from that collector are caught unethically. The sad part is that even high end stores get their fish from the same person, so it is really not much better since it is impossible to know.



No wholesaler is 100% MAC certified but there are some that are making strides. Places like Seacrop and Mary have a good agenda and a strong campaign for ensuring healthy fish and promoting ethics. Fish can be labeled as MAC certified, but I have never seen any first hand. I think many people do not know what it is and are blind to the fact it exists. Unfortunately, with the LFS, it goes back to the bottom line is the dollar sign.

To me this sounds a bit contradictory from your first initial post.

If you yourself are saying "it is impossible to know" (coming from someone who has knowledge of the subject).....how are the rest of us suppose to know or identify.

If "High End" stores are using the same wholesaler, they are jacking up prices because of the store, not because of procedures on how the fish was caught.

Again...I would love to deal with sellers who properly catch fish, but there's a much bigger picture.
It's great that you are making us aware of the situation & procedures that you have expieranced, but there should be a campaign against the wholesalers, stores & people that follow that kind of practice.
Reality is most of us would have no fish in our aquariums, as there is not a 100% way of knowing how every fish was caught.

 

[IconicAquariums]

Darealdvs, it is hard to distinguish the fish and the retailers that buy them.

My suggestion is to voice your opinions at fish stores that treat both the fish & you ethically. Those that are willing to be honest. Some high end stores are just as bad as the crappy ones, and are just out to make a dollar.

As I've previously stated, I do not know what actions to take. Who to talk to, or what to ask for. There is information that as hobbyists we can/should obtain that can be brought to retail stores and discussed with people.

Sorry for not having more answers, but awareness is the first step.

 

[loismustdie]

Good points have been brought up on unethical practices, corruption and so on. I'm in agreement that most of this would be very difficult, if not impossible to correct without signifigant government/environmental lobbists involvement.
What we can have more influence over are the practices of our hobby. I'm with Herman on this one. We are part of the problem. Plenty of people here on this site buy healthy fish, but lose them to poor or improper aquarium conditions and simply repalce them. Aaron brings up a great point with impulse buys. I bite my lip every time I see someone buy a mandarin fish when they run a nano that is 1 month old with 12 pounds of LR because they had to have it. Or too many fish in a small tank with nitrate levels through the roof. This stuff drives me crazy. Impulse buys should be strongly discouraged here, but instead, I see people say, "yeah, I did the same thing... couldn't resist". And even have the balls to put a smiley face at the end. Why promote this behavior?
Next topic is the QT. I posted a thread here on MR asking the simple question if people QT or not. Everything in this hobby is debated... EVERYTHING! Glass or acrylic? DSB, SSB or BB? MH, T-5, PC or LED? Big skimmer or little skimmer? The list goes on and on for these debates. Yet the one thing that even guys like Julian Sprung, Anthony Calfo, Bob Fenner, all the guys we pay money to watch them speak, buy their books, read their magazine articles, etc. all agree that fish should be in QT before they go into a main display. No one argues this yet very few actually do it. When I posted the thread, someone wrote that QT is for amatures who are clueless and experts who have the room. This particular person uses "good husbandry" to avoid losses. Last time I checked, QT is considered good husbandry. He made it sound like he never lost a fish. This attitude will seriuosly keep people from establishing a QT or admitting that they have one which may cause newbie's to believe they really don't need one. An LFS cannot QT due to time and profits. QT is the hobbyists responsibility.
Another thing we allow and entertain on this site is when people don't have the budget to set up the correct aquarium for their pets and ask which expensive item they can pass on until they can afford it. To hell with that. How about you wait until you have the money to give the animals a proper environment? If you can't afford a good skimmer, I already know that you don't have a chiller and you'll have some die-off over the summer. Rather than buying a chiller, skimmer, appropriate lighting, etc. they replace what dies. I don't care how fish and corals are collected, they usually don't fare too well when your tank hits 90 degrees in the summer and your nitrates are high. They best lighting doesn't penetrate water as well that is not well skimmed. Replacing live stock is cheaper up front, but in the long run it is more expensive and more importantly, you've wasted animals and go right back to these collectors to get more stuff.
I'm pretty sure we've all had catastrophic failures along the way, for example, the compressor on my chiller crapped out last year while I was in Iraq. A lot of stuff had to be replaced. These things happen and members of MR fragged their own colonies to help out. I've fragged and given stuff away as well. That is as zero impact as you can get.
We should look at better discipline. Setting up a QT and not eventually turning it into another fully stocked tank. Resist impulse buys especially when you know your system cannot sustain it. Make sure you have the budget to provide the best possible aquarium.
What it comes down to is there is no good in trying to effect change in the Far East when your own backyard finances the problems.

 

[inkblue]

Everything's contradictory.

We want to save our reefs and fishes, yet we buy gasoline from the same companies who spill millions a gallons of oil into the sea that kill more livestock than we can ever hope to buy (and kill) in ten lifetimes.

We want to buy from only ethical suppliers, yet we we'll buy imitation goods so that we look good no matter what the cost is to those natives working in sweat shops.

We want to be accepted, so we agree to what most people say on this board, then turn around and drive to an LFS full of dead fishes because they have some awesome fish for sale.

Where does it end...?

In my opinion, if you really want to do something about it, don't do it here, become a lobbyist and lobby for change to the higher authority. We can go on and on about this here, but like most of the threads I've seen, this will fade into nothingness within a couple of days or as soon as swap fever takes over.

It's great you want to do something for the livestock we get, but honestly, I have other priorities in life. Like most, I will look into it when I have settled my other basic needs in life. If that makes me a bad person in your eyes... look in the mirror and ask yourself, Where did my fish/coral really come and at what cost?

PS. I would prefer it if you would not refer to my fellow countryman as natives. As a Filipino, I take personal offense to that. Thank you.

 

[ezee]

Chris,

Well said!


Joetbs,

I think DaReal makes a very good point. Because it is so difficult to identify specifics, mismanagement of our communication can make concerned people leery of buying any fish anywhere. You seem to be in the know with these things, you were aware of many of the collectors and suppliers that did or did not use ethical collection techniques. Please share so we know what to red flag when we ask questions of our LFS. Give us a list of collectors that you know have unethical collection techniques and we as consumers will use that information.

As far as authoritatively stating which places to get fish from were bad, how about some places that you believe are good.

In otherwords, please quantify your statements with details so we can make use of the information.

Thanks!

E

 

[clownfishking]

Well said!!!! Joe

 

[ezee]

Ink,

Excellent post! Very honest and real.

E

 

[IconicAquariums]

Inkblue, i meant no offense to your heritage. Rather than list each nationality based on their locales, i used a blanket term. I apologize.

If you don't want to hear about it, please, don't click on the thread. No one's forcing you to do anything other than think. I'm sorry that you don't care of what the outcome is in the end.

You were the person that got me thinking on this whole subject with the gorgonian, about how not enough people research anymore. Gee, that 5 minutes could've saved an animals life. How many animals has your tank lost in the past 6 months and how many have you replaced?

With everything else happening in the world to the oceans(global warming, pollution, overfishing) there will likely come a time, very soon, where we can't get any fish. We should start to conserve now.

Some stores & sites that I would recommend purchasing fish from:
House of Fins, NY Aquaria, Aquatic Creations, Country Critters, Reef Encounter, Hanover Pet, Fin & Feather, Fish Town USA(in NJ), LiveAquaria, Reefermadness, SeaCrop, PhishyBusiness, ReefScience, TwilightAquatics, MarineDepotLive

Stores that I would personally avoid:
Absolutely Fish, Fish Town USA(in Queens), Beital's, Reef & Fin, Aquarium Adventure, Norwalk Aquarium, Route 4 Aquarium, Petco, Petland Discounts

 

[griMReefer]

who said natives lol must have missed that post. :scratchch

"native gatherer" literally means someone born in the country they gather from.

rather than some foreigner to the country raping it of its beautiful species, (like some import/export companies ie, walt smith lol.)

thanks goodness this topic will go on just like all debates like sand beds versus barebottom, MH versus PC and so on. the bigger picture, outside of our hobby craze, is that we are the only species on the planet that has ever and continues both intentionally and intentionally to exterminate hundreds upon hundreds of others. yeah survival of the fittest and all that.

ya know, if theres any 1 issue that is WORTH the DRAMA over debating till kingdom come, would it be over whether john doe has a sandbed or a bb or would it be how john doe and all the john does world over can minimize the impact on their environment their petty hobby has just because they have other stuff going on in life and finances worry about like tryin 2 save a buck.

if theres 1 most serious issue about our hobby its not about how many people get evicted because they have gone broke over a fetish for killing $$$ imported fish over and over again, but about saving the world! (without being a fanatic like many greenpeace members lol)

 

[ezee]

Joetbs,

Thanks for the list! What I was also referring to was the collection companies, I mean, this is a collection thread. That way we can speak to LFS intelligently about where they get their fish.

I am told that there are not that many places to go at the wholesale level. So what collectors and wholesalers should we avoid? And which are good? I am assuming that was the information you were referring to when this post started and want to know more. I am also kind of curious as to how you came up with that list.

In otherwords, I don't really want to be told where to shop, I want to be educated.

E

 

[inkblue]

...if I didn't care, I wouldn't be posting on this thread.

Like everyone on this thread, I am entitled to my opinion and my freedom to speak/write it. This is what a discussion makes. To hear ALL sides whether it agrees or conflicts with your views.

Also, Joe, in return, I read up on gorgonians as you suggested... see, some people do listen to you :lol: