Reality of Fish Collection

[IconicAquariums]

I'm just posting this because I'm tired of seeing people waste money on fish, and at the same time supporting awful practices.

This is a hobby, be prepared to pay for it. Research on the (free) internet never hurt anyone.

A LOT of places sell cyanide caught fish, and fish whose swim bladders are popped as they are improperly decompressed. It is not easy to tell by looking at the fish if these are involved, but usually the price tag tells you something.

Fish from Indonesia & Phillipines are some of the fish with problems. This does not mean other places like Marshall Islands and others don't use it. Fish that are MAC(Marine Aquarium Council) Certified are more expensive because the fish are certified net caught, meaning a better fish for your tank. Not only this, but the lives of 10 other fish aren't sacrificed where drugs are used. Fiji fish, primarily from Walt Smith are MAC certified.

Some places that do not use improper collection techniques are Australia, Vanuatu, Fiji, Christmas Islands, Society Islands, Cook Islands, Red Sea, Kenya, South Africa, Mauritius, Cocos/Keeling Islands.

The added cost of the fish is for a reason. Why spend $20 on a Copperband Butterfly that will most likely die(probably 65% of those important do not make it past 2 months)?

Large fish such as Tangs, Butterflies, and Angelfish are the most effected fish. These fish are shipped in small bags, which eventually are low in Ph and high in Ammonia. Often times prices are LOW to minimize losses, as in the customer(reseller) gets the fish before they die.

There are very few ethical places left that are collecting & exporting fish. There are even fewer places selling the livestock. Fish stores with a high turnover rate(i.e. Fish Town) are in the same categories as the wholesalers who sell the same crappy fish.

In my experience, many people shop here to save money. Most of the time, the fish dies. Maybe you are 'rescuing' the fish. The fish should be left there to die.

Responsible fish outlets do not have ridiculously high turnover rates, and insist on quality fish. You get what you pay for. For example, take a Powder Blue Tang. One from Bali will run you on average $40-75 for a 3-4" specimen. These fish are notoriously hard to keep. Why? Because the ones everyone buys come from Bali. Now, take the same species of fish from Africa(Kenya.) Now, you have a fish with a higher price tag, approximately $90-120 for a 3-4" specimen. These fish have a much higher price tag because they are collected properly, and shipped properly.

If the reseller does not know where the fish came from, the fish should not be purchased. More research should be done before purchases. Find out where the fish you want comes from, and find out how to tell the differences. Often times fish have different colors depending on where they're from, and this often helps distinguish them. Purple tangs come to mind. Red Sea varieties are much more vibrant purple while Indonesian fish are bland in color.

I don't know why everyone wants to pinch pennies in a world where our oceans are being destroyed. In the long run, if not more captive fish are supported, prices will be astronomical compared to now. That is, if fish are still being collected, which there is no guarantee on.

I know people don't want to face facts, but more ethical fish outlets need to be supported, to prevent the hobby from going down the toilet(literally.)

 

[herman]

Well said!!!! But unfortunately there are too many people even on this board that would prefer to pay next to nothing for self gratification. I dont even think half the people care whether a fish dies or not. They buy and buy and buy even though they have a tiny a$$ tank. It does not take a genius to know that they are killing a lot of their livestock and just replacing it with new ones.

 

[Sean]

Let the truth be heard.
I try to explain that to people but was never quite so eloquent

sometimes you get what you pay for.

 

[joseney21]

O.K., so how do you know, from a pricetag or by word of the owner, where a fish came from and whether it was collected and shipped properly or not. you really don't always get what you pay for.

with this thread you should've posted some places that you know of that support proper fish catching and fishing techniques so people can support them.

i think as a group that would be great, you know, to encourage everyone (new and old members) on the site to buy from specific stores that follow proper practices. not just preach it but start a plan and follow through.

comment was made as a general comment not towards you sean.

 

[tonyyammine]

i too would like to know a little more on where i would buy safe fish from.

 

[IconicAquariums]

Jose, that is a good point. It is hard to know, and especially hard to go by someone's word.

I do not know which specific stores have which fish. I know some could easily sell you a cyanide fish at an inflated price. One example would be a Solorensis Fairy Wrasse. Most of these come from the same place. If you see several at a store(since they are usually purchased in groups), take notice if there is a difference in price, and if there is any noticable 'bobbing.' This fish is notorious for having damage to its swim bladder. Now, some places sell the fish for $29, and some places sell it for $90. Are they from the same place? Probably.

It's really difficult to pinpoint a starting point, but hopefully employees and owners of LFS will be more forthcoming with the origin and knowledge of their livestock. Take liveaquaria as a base, each fish is listed with origin, and different price grades from each origin. There are lots of websites, such as www.wetwebmedia.com where you can email experts like Bob Fenner & Anthony Calfo, who are willing to help anyone and everyone just for the sake of a fish.

Hopefully something will change, as I know it's a problem everywhere in the world, and with the internet as prevelant as it is, things only seem to be getting worse.

joe

 

[IconicAquariums]

Also, if the store does not know or cannot find out, it is probably because they are buying fish from a bad supplier who is not forthcoming with the information.

Alot of wholesalers charge more for fish, but they give you exact details and can point at a fish in a tank and tell you when it came in and where it came from, and will happily supply their customers with this information.

joe

 

[aaron23]

When calfo spoke about propagation in the conference he spoke about the time he traveled to spain about 3 weeks ago. He told us bubble corals were illegal there. Bubble corals cost us at most $50.00 or so at the store... in spain they were costing over $800.00 .....

This is a calfo thread. propagation conservation sharing and love for the hobby.. breeding / fraging things

 

[IconicAquariums]

Aaron, how is that different than the Illegal Acan lords & Balanophyllia/Rhyzotrochus showing up here?

People pay for what they want, plain and simple.

How many stores sell tank raised Clowns? Bangaii cardinals? Angels?

We should be supporting people like Adrian who are going out of their way to make this hobby sustainable. Pay a little more now, a little less later.

joe

 

[prattreef]

He speaks the truth... and it is probably worse than that. If you really care to know more, I would read extensively in the Reefs.org "Industry Behind the Hobby" forum. The facts are that most of our fish come from the Philipines and Indo, and that there are VERY few net caught fish coming from these locations. The other locations Joe mentions are generally clean, but as he states, fish from these areas are generally more expensive.

Sadly, the vast majority of exporters, importers, wholesalers, and retailers either don't care, don't know or don't want to know which leaves the few consumers who do care in a very difficult situation. The bottom line is that the numbers don't add up... there just aren't enough clean fish imported to account for the claims of "net caught" sellers.

This is a huge and complex issue involving a whole host of factors. IMO it is worth it for all of us to become informed.

Randy

 

[IconicAquariums]

Randy, one of the oldest Importers(perhaps the first) told me this when I spoke with him in LA:

"If fish didn't die, there would be no fish to sell"

 

[prattreef]

Pathetic, but I believe it. It is also hard for people to seperate out the cyanide issue from the handling/care issues which though often related, are not necessarily the same. (MAC has been woefully incompetant with the former and has done some good with the latter.) Put them together and people would be shocked at the mortality rate from diver to consumer. RD

 

[DevIouS]

Although I honestly care about "live stock" & would support proper collection of fish or coral......
business is business & sellers will tell you what you want to hear to make that profit.
We all know that.
The same situation as when you have a "newbie" walk into a store & walk out with unnecessary equipment & 20 tangs in a 10 gal.

Maybe I should research more, but it would take some major investigating to find out the actual truth on to whom carries what.

I pride myself in caring for my fish/corals & try to provide the best home possible for them.

 

[masterswimmer]

Well said Joe. As others before me have mentioned and you agreed to, there is a very fine line between being able to tell the differences between fish caught with proper methods as opposed to improper methods.

No different than buying a television. If you are looking at your brand new 42" Toshiba TV at home, it looks beautiful. Put it next to a Sony in the store and the Sony looks superior.

If the Purple Tang from Indonesia is sitting in a tank at an inflated price, and you don't have a PT from the Red Sea sitting next to it, the PT from Indonesia is most likely going to look like the 'right' fish to buy. How does the average hobbyist differentiate when there is no basis for comparison in the LFS?

I happen to know of one LFS in Westchester that if you ask the owner where a fish is from, he'll take out his bill of laden (invoice basically) and show you. He'll cover his cost column, but you'll see first hand where his fish originated.

Joe, your thesis is right on the money. Executing your plan is not nearly as easy as you're trying to make it seem. Not everyone is geographically located to a Walt Smith retailer. Nor will most retailers divulge the information about where they buy their stock. I know if I were a retailer, that information would be very confidential. You never know who the customer is that's asking for that information, ie: your competition.

Russ

 

[aaron23]

interesting..."Pay a little more now, a little less later."

I dont know about you but, the stores around here all have tank raised clowns and bangais and the yare freaking heeela expensive. Everybody in the hobby wants to buy things cheap who doesnt? Do you know how much it costs per month for electricity and water? I dont know about you dude but i live on longisland. Everything is freaking 10x more in costs. Per month my entire house's electricity / water costs over 1,000 dollars i dont know if this is true but mother says this.

The hobby is EXTREMELY EXPENSIVE and cutting corners buying the fish that we either buy in impulse or really desire may not be or the right and for the right reasons but its a quick satisfaction and enjoyment for the time being.

More people in this hobby i guess arent informed but everybody.... i mean everybody is looking for that cheap impulse / satisfaction buy.

 

[IconicAquariums]

The problem with MAC is that the exporters/collectors don't want to go through all the hoops to get certified. http://www.aquariumcouncil.org/

I agree Randy, there are problems everywhere, not just with drug use. It was painful to watch Anthias and Watanabei angels have their swollen swim bladders popped. This occurs because when rising up from the depths, air inside the animal expands due to gas exchange. When on the boat, the fish cannot keep itself from floating up to the surface, due to the trapped air. The fish is then held and a needle/pin is injected near the anus to relieve the air. Often times the fish will never have the strength and health to recover.

Just a FYI, Liveaquaria.com and its wholesaler are the foremost providers of not only MAC certified, but also tank raised fish. Several other wholesalers have some MAC fish, but the mass majority of the places do not.

joe

 

[IconicAquariums]

Aaron, i have an experiment for you . Go buy 50 bangaii cardinals. Come back in a month, and tell me how many are still living. Then go buy 2 CB ones(which are very hard to find IME) and come back in 10 years and show me beautiful fish. In all my experience buying fish, working at stores, etc. I have seen 3(that's a three) wild caught bangaiis take food. Not even talking about surviving long term. Just eating. Out of hundreds.

Although some tank raised fish are more, IMO they are worth it. ORA fish are very reasonably priced. Obviously crazy Snowflake morphs and the like are more due to the outcome of the litter. I saw naked clowns in CT for $30 each, less than what most stores around here sell wild Ocellaris for.

Sean sells ORA stuff, as does Sal. I'm sure there are other stores that get the stuff(hell, even Petco does, but that's another topic)

I'm well aware of the people that walk into fishtown or any other store and walk out with fish that they are not suited for. What I want, and what there is a need for, is for the people that do have the information at their fingertips to use it.

 

[ezee]

Joetbs,

Randy and I have had some in depth discussions about this topic and I totally agree that not only is collection horrendous but treatment all along the line is bad. That includes every point up to the LFS that we buy our livestock from. There are better practices that the people that we buy from can adopt but many of them are not willing to do so. I was just talking about this with a LFS recently, as well but I am not sure if I was able to make an impact.

Good thread by the way.

E

 

[aaron23]

It is very hard to compete with instant satisfaction and impulse purchasing.

 

[herman]

If you want to know where retailers get their livestock from just look at the dumpster where thry throw the shipping boxes. Then you will see. Also all you have to do is hang around when the shipment arrives. We all see the boxes and the shipping lables.

The fact is most people here except for the newbie know what is going on. And yet most will buy the cheaper variety. Its Pathetic to say the least!! Just look at some peoples tanks in their gallery or when you visit their places. The "turnover" in their stock is crazy. I have kept fish for years and years on end. Yeah I would like to add another species but I just have to practice constraint. The people who can even sustain fish in their tanks for more than a couple of months let alone a year and keep on buying new livestock to replace what they have lost are the ones to blame. They simply dont care!!

As with any business there are the shameful aspects of it. As long as there are consumers who are incapable of sustaining life but capable of replenishing, the bad practices will go on. Most of the fish farmers in south east asia are dirt poor and will do anything to sustain their life and their families. Like I said as long as their are those dumbasses in our hobby, the practices will not change.

We all know who they are. We all have reef buddies that keep killing stuff and they lurk at every oportunity to get something cheap to restock their tank. But do we, the advanced reefers, say anything to them? No! Why? I dont know. Who is to blame...............maybe its us, who fail to educate and point out wrongdoings in our own back yard. Some may think that I am exagerating, but I am not. We are a board that is 1000 plus members strong of which maybe 5% (im highballing) practice and keep stable reefs. All the other tanks are plain fish killers. And remember that for every fish that makes it into our tanks dozens and dozens of fish perish!!!!!!

A perfect example that we are all familiar with is Canal Street. The "west" scoths at China and other asian countries for producing these goods and yet these goods are blatantly being sold very accessibly in our own city.

All we are is a bunch of hypocrites. Thats the sad truth.