Algae Turf Scrubber, What do you think?

[bfessler]

:lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Anonymous]

This thread needs an eco-aqualizer! If run with both the Hiatt System and SM ATS you'd pretty much never need to do a water change, or use carbon/skimmer/etc.

I seem to remember you having a go at me once for bringing that style of Sump debate topside. :lol:

 

[Anonymous]

This thread needs an eco-aqualizer! If run with both the Hiatt System and SM ATS you'd pretty much never need to do a water change, or use carbon/skimmer/etc.

I seem to remember you having a go at me once for bringing that style of Sump debate topside. :lol:

Which is why I am keeping my mouth shut

 

[bfessler]

Hmmm. Color me skeptical on the ability of such a small area of turf algae to do all that a skimmer etc can do now...

Yes!
The guy promoting them has been banned from many boards due to his amazing claims and his ability to not enter into discussions with people who question him. ATS surely have their place and it may simply be the case that a lot of the reports of 'success' with the waterfall design are simply post hoc ergo proctor hoc and the same results would have been achieved by other factors.

This thread needs an eco-aqualizer! If run with both the Hiatt System and SM ATS you'd pretty much never need to do a water change, or use carbon/skimmer/etc.

It appears that there is a lot of skepticism regarding new ideas and systems and rightly so. The problem with most of these new things is the lack of controlled studies to document their effectiveness and claims. Unfortunately controlled studies take time and resources that few of us have to dedicate to proving a particular system works or is bogus. There are so many different ways to have a successful reef that anyone's results can be duplicated in other ways.

If there is a product that I can evaluate without causing harm to my system I am not opposed to it. I really appreciate criticism from others that have actually tried the systems as opposed to those who just jump on the bashing band wagon. 99% of those who bash the Hiatt System have never actually tried it, but because it's different than the generally accepted methods out there for some reason feel threatened and need to do all they can to stop people form using it. I am equally annoyed by products peddled as revolutionary with many claims that cannot be verified or are truly bogus, Eco-Aqualizer comes to mind.

So how do we sort out what's truly new and exciting from the crap being peddled out there? I think it's through boards like this where hobbyists report what they are doing and how it works. I generally through out the claims of the Manufacturer or someone trying to peddle their wares because they're pushing product. I also through out the criticism of good intentioned people who have never tried the product but still feel the need to bash it. I try to find information from other hobbyists that have actually tried the product, hoping for a good result and willing to share their experience with others. This information is sometimes difficult to find particularly when a person hesitates to share their experience for fear of ridicule.

I am the first one to admit that I have used some systems that are controversial, but I don't tell anyone they should do what I am doing, I just report for better or worse what I have done and how it worked for me and thats the kind of information I am looking for when I research a product before trying it out.

 

[bfessler]

This thread needs an eco-aqualizer! If run with both the Hiatt System and SM ATS you'd pretty much never need to do a water change, or use carbon/skimmer/etc.

BTW I do appreciate when someone can sum up their thoughts in one short concise statement like this one. Quick Witt has never been one of my strong points. :lol:

 

[Anonymous]

It appears that there is a lot of skepticism regarding new ideas and systems and rightly so.

Well, the scrubber idea isn't exactly new and the issues we (and many other people on many other boards) had was as much with that particular messenger and his presentation of it as being the new be and end all method. The hobby evolves by people walking new paths, that is a good thing and what you are doing is IMhhO important.

 

[Len]

I've done ATS decades ago, and although technology has advanced, it still works on the exact same principle. It failed miserably for me on my two attempts. I simply couldn't keep SPS and some LPS alive, and the water never looked clean (although I did have very low levels of nitrate). With skimmers nowadays, there's really no reason I can think of to go ATS.

It works fine for soft coral tanks IME, but the question still persists: why bother when we have skimmers that work very well?

 

[Anonymous]

It works fine for soft coral tanks IME, but the question still persists: why bother when we have skimmers that work very well?

Not to sidetrack or threadjack, but this is the question that I keep asking myself when people go to extreme lengths to avoid simple water changes. Good gravy, why is it considered the 'holy grail' to not change your water? How hard is it? After all, people spend big bucks on livestock and equipment then get all twisted up over mixing some salt and water together-the cheapest part of the whole reefkeeping hobby!

sorry, I'm done now.

 

[bfessler]

Thanks for that assessment. I guess that my interest is a little different than most as I have never used a skimmer. I tried once and ordered an euro-reef Nano skimmer which I understand are great but I ordered mine when they first came out and they couldn't make one that worked with my Nano and allowed me to open the lid. Because my nutrients were low anyway I felt that opening the top was more important than having a skimmer.

I also have several friends that have skimmers and still suffer with high nitrates. As I understand it skimmers don't eliminate high nitrates they just remove bio load form the water column before it breaks down to nitrate and phosphate. I know there are other product to take care of this in addition to skimming and water changes, but if there is a simple elegant option to take care of both problems then it interests me.

I have only been in the hobby 6 months and have just started getting into SPS. I have had good success with LPS and some softies and within the last couple months have added Montipora, and Millipora. Both are growing and extending well in my Nano without a skimmer. My monit has grown more than 4x its original size in the 2 months I have had it. I have started feeding my corals more and notice that i am beginning to see more algae blooming than I have in the past. Because I have seen good growth in all my corals including SPS without a skimmer when I read that the Scrubber allows food to remain in the tank longer to feed the corals I thought why not try it and see if I can feed more and still keep the algae at bay. Because I travel for business weekly I am not home to feed daily and keeping the food in the tank longer appeals to me.

So thats my reason for looking at a Scrubber. I also like building things in my spare time and this looks like a project I can handle that might just benefit my tank as well. If it doesn't work out I may go back to trying the skimmer and ditching my hood for a pendant over my Nano. We'll see.

 

[Anonymous]

Well, you're coming into it with an open mind and sharing your experiences here, so that's great. I'll be looking forward to hearing how you get on.

 

[Len]

ATS tend to yellow the water with all the tanic and humic acids algae leeches back. I guess you can use carbon to help with this though. But still, I couldn't get SPS to do well with ATS, even though nitrates read very low (lower than with my skimmed tanks). I'm almost tempted to theorize that algae produces chemicals to impede stony coral growth.

 

[bfessler]

ATS tend to yellow the water with all the tanic and humic acids algae leeches back. I guess you can use carbon to help with this though. But still, I couldn't get SPS to do well with ATS, even though nitrates read very low (lower than with my skimmed tanks). I'm almost tempted to theorize that algae produces chemicals to impede stony coral growth.

Take a look at this article in Reefkeeping. http://reefkeeping.com/joomla/index.php/current-issue/article/7-paul-baldassanos-40-year-old-reef

This guy uses an ATS and a reverse flow undergravel filter, talk about wierd. He claims his tank has been going for 40 years and he has some beautiful coral in his system. I'm sure not too many people would go with this approch but it seems to be working for him.

 

[bfessler]

BTW he uses a skimmer in addition to a scrubber so it doesn't have to be either/or.

 

[bfessler]

ATS tend to yellow the water with all the tanic and humic acids algae leeches back. I guess you can use carbon to help with this though. But still, I couldn't get SPS to do well with ATS, even though nitrates read very low (lower than with my skimmed tanks). I'm almost tempted to theorize that algae produces chemicals to impede stony coral growth.

What I have read about the yellowing of the water is that its actually the dying algae under the top growth that causes this. Frequent harvesting is said to be the answer so you don't have any algae deep in the turf not getting light and dying. Don't know if its ture but sounds reasonable.

 

[Len]

Yeah, that's how my ATS tanks looked. And no disrespect to him (or myself!), but that isn't what I'd call a good or healthy tank

 

[Len]

ATS tend to yellow the water with all the tanic and humic acids algae leeches back. I guess you can use carbon to help with this though. But still, I couldn't get SPS to do well with ATS, even though nitrates read very low (lower than with my skimmed tanks). I'm almost tempted to theorize that algae produces chemicals to impede stony coral growth.

What I have read about the yellowing of the water is that its actually the dying algae under the top growth that causes this. Frequent harvesting is said to be the answer so you don't have any algae deep in the turf not getting light and dying. Don't know if its ture but sounds reasonable.

Could be, but doubtful IMO. And why would I want this work when I can just clean a collection cup every couple weeks

BTW, this reminds me: ATS literally stink. My room smelled like algae.

 

[Anonymous]

ATS tend to yellow the water with all the tanic and humic acids algae leeches back. I guess you can use carbon to help with this though. But still, I couldn't get SPS to do well with ATS, even though nitrates read very low (lower than with my skimmed tanks). I'm almost tempted to theorize that algae produces chemicals to impede stony coral growth.

What I have read about the yellowing of the water is that its actually the dying algae under the top growth that causes this. Frequent harvesting is said to be the answer so you don't have any algae deep in the turf not getting light and dying. Don't know if its ture but sounds reasonable.

Could be, but doubtful IMO. And why would I want this work when I can just clean a collection cup every couple weeks

BTW, this reminds me: ATS literally stink. My room smelled like algae.

This is part of the issue - there is a lot that sounds like it makes sense, but...



Any pics of an SPS tank running an ATS?

 

[bfessler]

Maybe I missed something but here is apicture of Paul Baldassano's tank. It looks pretty good to me.

 

[Len]

I don't mean to be a snob, but that tank is so 1980s. It's not what I'd call good looking or particularly healthy. He seems to have the same problems I had with ATS: no SPS, and receding LPS (look at his green bubble coral base).

 

[bfessler]

OK Len,

I am a newbie so I guess it doesn't take much to impress me. It's not the best tank I have ever seen and the tank is supposedly 40years old.

Anyway finding pictures of scrubbed tanks isn't as easy as one might think so I went the easy way to the site of the over zealous Santa Monica at algaescrubbers.net and found a pic that I think looks pretty good. Guess coming from a SantaMonica's site it may be suspect but here's Mudsharks tank.