Algae Turf Scrubber, What do you think?

[Len]

Again, open mind is a good thing. But don't discount the experiences of thousands of hobbyists and professionals before you: ATS doesn't perform like modern filtration does. Go ahead and try: we're just telling you your efforts and money is better spent elsewhere. I suppose if your primary goal is to figure things out for yourself, then there's nothing I can say to convince you otherwise. But I rather most hobbyists follow the examples and tutorship of our collective experiences. There's plenty to learn without retracing past failures. We aren't experimenting with inanimate, common objects here.

You simply can't find many examples of successful ATS tanks, let alone ones that seasoned hobbyists would consider "top" tanks. You can find hundreds (if not thousands) of successful skimmed tanks; and all the best looking hobbyist tanks are skimmed. That should tell you something right there.

 

[Anonymous]

Finally the reason I brought up that there was more going on in that beautiful tank pictured by Len is only that the appearance of every tank is the sum total of all the systems and products used. Just as showing a beautiful tank with a scrubber doesn't prove that the scrubber is responsible for it, showing a beautiful tank with a skimmer doesn't mean that the skimmer is responsible for the total condition of the tank. Pull out any one of the other systems used and you won't have the same results. A beautiful tank is a combination of the total package of systems and products, and the skill and artistic ability of the builder.

I pretty much agree.
I have yet to see a full blown SPS tank running with the current trend of ATS. Again, the problem I have is that it is billed as a panacea, which I think is dangerous for people who are just getting their feet wet.

I hope to encourage other hobbyists to be more open minded, and more encouraging when others try new things or look for new applications for old ways of doing things. This doesn't mean that we should keep quiet when someone makes ridiculous claims and try to pass them off as facts. To quote Dion on utahreefs.com "I know what works for me and it might not work for others. However I'm not going to crucify someone for their beliefs. If it works great. If it doesn't then lesson learned." Letting hobbyists try products or ideas and allowing them to sink or swim will build their skills as reefers. This has to be good for the hobbyist and the hobby. If everyone simply followed the same accepted blueprint for keeping a reef what is really learned? Only how to follow instructions and not how systems interact. Hobbyists that only follow instructions have to ask for help every time something changes in the tank. They will become dependent on others to keep their systems going. Trying new and old things broadens the skill set of the individual and like Dion said, If it doesn't work, LESSON LEARNED.

I don't think anyone is advocating everyone doing the same thing the same way. What I am interested in is people being reasonable and trying reasonable things and most importantly having some kind of understanding of what is going on before they implement something. Its hard to see people talk about something that has been done in the past and hasn't really worked as the new way to solve all ones problems.

 

[Ben1]

swim will build their skills as reefers. This has to be good for the hobbyist and the hobby

Not good for the hobby when said reefer trys and fails, killing corals in a not up to par enviroment putting to many eggs in one basket. Then developing into a buy to replace type of reefer and eventually getting out of the hobby. Have at the ATS if you will, but why bother when other better methods have been proven. Why not encourage reefers to learn the right way the first time. I was trying to stay out of this thread and will try to keep out of it further.... :roll: I guess IIBTL

 

[Anonymous]

Is there only one right way? How about algal turf scrubbing systems not as the end-all be-all, but as adjuncts to other forms and methods of filtration?

Also, someone mentioned a while back that ATS is equal to refugium, and I think I might disagree with that. A 'fuge does a whole lot more, and houses a whole lot more, than just algae.

 

[Anonymous]

Is there only one right way? How about algal turf scrubbing systems not as the end-all be-all, but as adjuncts to other forms and methods of filtration?

Also, someone mentioned a while back that ATS is equal to refugium, and I think I might disagree with that. A 'fuge does a whole lot more, and houses a whole lot more, than just algae.

I think that was me. I was asking what an ATS did that a refugium didn't, not that a refugium and ATS are equivalent.

 

[leftovers]

My two cents..... every successful ATS tank I have ever known has failed in usually a disastrous way within a few years and virtually all the owners went back to skimmers or left the hobby..... Those that lasted the longest were fanatical about running carbon regularly and removing algae regularly.

 

[bfessler]

Again, open mind is a good thing. But don't discount the experiences of thousands of hobbyists and professionals before you:

I am not discounting the experiences of anyone. I didn't ask for opinions just to discount them. If someone asks for your opinion as one source of information then after evaluating all sources of information and puts together a reasonable plan contrary to your advice, it doesn't mean your opinion is any less valid, they are just trying a different way. It's the continuous assertions that a fellow hobbyist not try that creates the hostile environment others have referred to.

I have yet to see a full blown SPS tank running with the current trend of ATS. Again, the problem I have is that it is billed as a panacea, which I think is dangerous for people who are just getting their feet wet.

OK, just because one person bills something as a panacea doesn't mean that anyone who tries something similar is billing it the same way. I agree that when someone attributes outrageous claims to a system its a bad thing, but it doesn't mean there is no place for the system.

I don't think anyone is advocating everyone doing the same thing the same way. What I am interested in is people being reasonable and trying reasonable things and most importantly having some kind of understanding of what is going on before they implement something. Its hard to see people talk about something that has been done in the past and hasn't really worked as the new way to solve all ones problems.

I think this was just addressed to some point above. I don't think this is the case in this instance where I have already stated that evaluating the scrubber is supplementary to what I am already doing, there are backup tanks in the event of an unexpected disaster and nothing is being discontinued to evaluate the product.

Not good for the hobby when said reefer trys and fails, killing corals in a not up to par enviroment putting to many eggs in one basket. Then developing into a buy to replace type of reefer and eventually getting out of the hobby. Have at the ATS if you will, but why bother when other better methods have been proven. Why not encourage reefers to learn the right way the first time. I was trying to stay out of this thread and will try to keep out of it further.... I guess IIBTL

Again you have to look at this in a case by case basis. If a hobbyist simply tries something without doing research, without a contingency plan, with blatant disconcern for their livestock then yes this should be strongly discouraged, however if the hobbyist has done research, does have a contingency plan, and is simply evaluating the effectiveness of a product or system then continual discouragement of the attempt is simply contributing to the don't try anything we don't approve mentality. It discourages learning, innovation and the fun that could be had building trying and actually succeeding in a project.

Is there only one right way? How about algal turf scrubbing systems not as the end-all be-all, but as adjuncts to other forms and methods of filtration?

Also, someone mentioned a while back that ATS is equal to refugium, and I think I might disagree with that. A 'fuge does a whole lot more, and houses a whole lot more, than just algae.

I couldn't agree more and this has been my point from the beginning.

Since starting this thread I have received some private messages from others who have felt their ideas were ridiculed so badly that they just stopped posting what they were doing and their results. This is the Hostile environment that obviously other members of the board are feeling and not entirely without justification. You can simply dismiss this or realize that this does in fact drive away hobbyists that could be contributing. Personally I can take the criticism and have sufficient resolve to follow through with my intentions despite the ridicule. I have learned a lot by researching then completing projects and plan to continue this learning process as I still have lots to learn.

As I have stated before I appreciate the opinions of everyone who responds to my questions and I find your opinions extremely valuable. Please don't think I value them any less by attempting something contrary to your opinions. I may succeed or I may fail but I will learn from the experience and will make sure that my animals are well taken care of. Just look at the pictures in this thread and others of my tanks. While they are not of the caliber of many of the exquisite tanks on these pages my animals are not in distress and I take my responsibility for their care very seriously. I try to be objective in reporting my findings without making unfounded claims or promises.

Whether you realize it or not, some of the well intentioned posters on the site could be a little more open minded and encouraging without compromising your beliefs. Present the facts as you know them and then watch what others do. You might just learn something.

 

[Anonymous]

Present the facts as you know them and then watch what others do.

Sure. It does however become difficult to do when you see people making the same mistakes that people made years ago which resulted in the deaths of animals. Combine that with experience in watching the same mistakes become trends that then become 'fact' and you may see why some take a harder line.

You might just learn something.

You prolly could have left that off.

 

[bfessler]

Do you really think that deaths are going to happen simply from trying out a scrubber and if so do you think they wouldn't have happened in its absence?

I admit I have lots to learn and I don't think there will come a time when that won't be the case. I think thats the case for everyone. Everybody just needs to lighten up a little. If hobbyists don't feel threatened with ridicule for responsibly testing new and old ideas and reporting their results there will be current information on many more products that will help others when doing their research. If we could get rid of both the people making fantastic claims and those ready to pounce on anyone who wants to try something out of the ordinary we'll have a much better and more accurate transfer of ideas and information.

[leftovers - fixed that for you...]

 

[Ben1]

Not good for the hobby when said reefer trys and fails, killing corals in a not up to par enviroment putting to many eggs in one basket. Then developing into a buy to replace type of reefer and eventually getting out of the hobby. Have at the ATS if you will, but why bother when other better methods have been proven. Why not encourage reefers to learn the right way the first time. I was trying to stay out of this thread and will try to keep out of it further.... I guess IIBTL

Again you have to look at this in a case by case basis. If a hobbyist simply tries something without doing research, without a contingency plan, with blatant disconcern for their livestock then yes this should be strongly discouraged, however if the hobbyist has done research, does have a contingency plan, and is simply evaluating the effectiveness of a product or system then continual discouragement of the attempt is simply contributing to the don't try anything we don't approve mentality. It discourages learning, innovation and the fun that could be had building trying and actually succeeding in a project.

Well to be fair your title was "What do you think?" I think there has been results showing fuges are better options then ATS, and I do not understand the need to try something that has been shown by experienced reefers, inferior to another method. The problem with getting information on the net is you don't know how much real reefing experience some posters have, or whether they can even tell the difference between success and not. I also feel when you see people reporting success with a method they have used it less than 6 months it is a very premature assessment. Check with those same reefers in a year or two and see if they stuck with it and what their tank looks like now. I have seen people toot their horn on how successful their tank is and when I see pictures of a hair algae infested tank I realize they just don't know better. I am not saying that is you or anyone else in particular. I am just saying you could throw an ATS on your system, see a drop in trates, run carbon to prevent any build ups and yellowing water and post about how people told you the system was no good but look how well it worked for me, and someone else new jumps on board. I would of course then post you would have seen better results using a comparable filtration method like a fuge, or other proven methods and no ATS or fuge. So yeah of course there is more than one way to have whatever it is you consider a successful reef tank, but I always feel getting the correct water parameters, the most effective, proven, stable way that will work long term for someone is important to help them achieve.

I see you say you just are doing this for fun, and have contingency plans. I can tell you already have your mind made up on using this ATS method, even if people with more experience like Matt, Gresham, Len, Thales and others have tried to steer you to more conventional successful methods. I am not trying to insult you in anyway and truly hope you enjoy reefing for the long run as it is a very rewarding hobby. Sorry if my post come that way I just want to help make reefers have success the easiest way possible. Good luck with it, hope it works out well long term for your animal’s sake.

 

[Anonymous]

Perhaps not a super duper sps tank but it would seem to me that Paul Baldassano’s 40 year old reef tank would seem to be a success.

http://reefkeeping.com/joomla/index.php ... r-old-reef

my .02

 

[leftovers]

Perhaps not a super duper sps tank but it would seem to me that Paul Baldassano’s 40 year old reef tank would seem to be a success.

http://reefkeeping.com/joomla/index.php ... r-old-reef

my .02

except for the fact that he uses a skimmer...that feeds down into the trough that houses the algea...and its not been on his tank for 40 years....but other than that....

 

[bfessler]

Hi Ben,

I agree completely with you last post. Important to point out that you believe there are better ways and why.

I believe what I actually said about doing it for fun was that I have more fun with the build than the viewing of the display.

You are correct after researching this filter on several boards, Talking Reef, Reefs, Utah reefs, and RC I have decided to build a Scrubber. It's not just for the fun of the build as I actually have a need to reduce the amount of algae in my display. It's not a big problem but I have been getting some hair algae in the tank for the first time since setting it up.

A couple months ago I tried an EuroReef skimmer with mesh wheel when they first came out for my JBJ 28G Nano. They sent me the wrong skimmer first then after taking pictures of the tank and measuring the compartments in the filter section sent me one that was supposed to work. I had to cut into the top frame of the tank to make clearance for the unit then after getting it installed found I couldn't open the canopy without removing the skimmate cup and dropping the skimmer down into the back section. This meant every time I wanted to raise the lid I would have to completely readjust the skimmer. It was too much work having to constantly adjust the skimmer so I sent it back.

I can probably take care of my algae problem by beefing up my cleanup crew but I just got rid of the pesky crabs that topple my corals so I thought I'd try this approach. Interestingly enough on most every other board there are several people using Scrubbers and seem to be happy with them. Didn't run into nearly the controversy there. Due to the location of the Nano, available space in the family room and my wifes concern over appearance putting a skimmer on the tank is just difficult. Thats why I am working on a compact design that will satisfy her requirements for appearance and hopefully reduce the amount of algae in the display. If it works it will improve the quality of the display and if it doesn't it will just be another lesson I had to learn the hard way.

Most of the people that contacted me that were happy with their scrubbers use them in addition to a skimmer because they both do work differently. So It appears it's doesn't have to be an either or option. It's just another possibility in an nearly endless bunch of options available to reefkeepers.

 

[leftovers]

Burt,

The bottom line is this, every new reefer who comes in asking the same question and questioning the same logic that has already been tested and proven thinks they are being hassled or ridiculed. Its no different in any other hobby where proven technology exists and those who have been around for extended periods of time exist.

The ATS has been tried and tested and failed so often most of us stopped counting years ago. If the Smithsonian's massive reef failed with it, and no other massive or tiny educational or professional reef display uses it because of its failed track record what makes you or any other reefer think that suddenly their solution will work?

I'm not bashing you or your methods or your approach, just bear in mind that for many discussions like this are like broken records, they start off well intentioned but soon get stuck with people beating the dirt which the already dead horse has turned into...

 

[Anonymous]

I admit I have lots to learn and I don't think there will come a time when that won't be the case. I think thats the case for everyone. Everybody just needs to lighten up a little.

I don't think anyone is really all that heavy in this thread. I like this discussion a lot.

If hobbyists don't feel threatened with ridicule for responsibly testing new and old ideas and reporting their results there will be current information on many more products that will help others when doing their research. If we could get rid of both the people making fantastic claims and those ready to pounce on anyone who wants to try something out of the ordinary we'll have a much better and more accurate transfer of ideas and information.

You bet, but thats really really hard. Too many people say things like 'I found the cure for ich' without the qualifiers. One of the reasons I like RDO so much is that there is a large percentage of posters who do do this.

 

[bfessler]

So is it just that were easy targets then, that can be pounced on, made to look silly and eventually we'll go away, that so much effort goes into preventing any credible effort go on here. This thread would have been about one page long if everyone simply gave their honest opinion and let it be. Were up to 4 pages now and nothing has even been done yet.

No fantastic claims in this thread, no attempts to gain converts, none of the horrible things everyone gets upset about but still lots of drama. Way back a couple pages ago when I said I had decided to try it, if the experts would have let it be there wouldn't have been any more debate and when I the system inevitably failed and I admitted such everyone would be vindicated. But instead it continues, It hasn't worked, It won't work, You won't be happy with the results, don't try, just do it our proven way, ..... Its incredible. I could see all the effort if I was in your face telling you why your wrong and I'm right but thats not the case. There are lots of pats on the back and way to go's here if someone uses your proven methods but no encouragement for anyone who steps outside the lines, even if they don't make outrageous claims or preach their experiment as the most revolutionary idea since salt mix.

Anyway this is a waste of time. I'm going to stop commenting on this thread for now until I actually have something new to post. I'll let you see my design and mock it if you will and I'll let you know if it reduces the excess algae in the tank and weather it was worth the effort to me building it, but I have better things to do than continue the debate over whether I should even build it or not. Perhaps I'll just start a new thread about the build and how it works out for anyone interested. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

 

[bfessler]

My last post was in response to Leftovers not Thales. But thats probably obvious :lol:

 

[Anonymous]

Hi Ben,

I agree completely with you last post. Important to point out that you believe there are better ways and why.

I believe what I actually said about doing it for fun was that I have more fun with the build than the viewing of the display.

You are correct after researching this filter on several boards, Talking Reef, Reefs, Utah reefs, and RC I have decided to build a Scrubber. It's not just for the fun of the build as I actually have a need to reduce the amount of algae in my display. It's not a big problem but I have been getting some hair algae in the tank for the first time since setting it up.

A couple months ago I tried an EuroReef skimmer with mesh wheel when they first came out for my JBJ 28G Nano. They sent me the wrong skimmer first then after taking pictures of the tank and measuring the compartments in the filter section sent me one that was supposed to work. I had to cut into the top frame of the tank to make clearance for the unit then after getting it installed found I couldn't open the canopy without removing the skimmate cup and dropping the skimmer down into the back section. This meant every time I wanted to raise the lid I would have to completely readjust the skimmer. It was too much work having to constantly adjust the skimmer so I sent it back.

I can probably take care of my algae problem by beefing up my cleanup crew but I just got rid of the pesky crabs that topple my corals so I thought I'd try this approach. Interestingly enough on most every other board there are several people using Scrubbers and seem to be happy with them. Didn't run into nearly the controversy there. Due to the location of the Nano, available space in the family room and my wifes concern over appearance putting a skimmer on the tank is just difficult. Thats why I am working on a compact design that will satisfy her requirements for appearance and hopefully reduce the amount of algae in the display. If it works it will improve the quality of the display and if it doesn't it will just be another lesson I had to learn the hard way.

Most of the people that contacted me that were happy with their scrubbers use them in addition to a skimmer because they both do work differently. So It appears it's doesn't have to be an either or option. It's just another possibility in an nearly endless bunch of options available to reefkeepers.

Here is another thing to think about. Most of the people posting 'success' with the current version of ATS have newish tanks. They have algae problems. They put on an ATS and assume the ATS took care of the algae problem. The problem is that tanks often even out around this time and the algae goes away on 'its own'. So part of the question here is does the ATS actually do what they say it did or not. No way to tell, and there are plenty plenty of tanks that have no algae issues that don't run them. T

I have no issues at all with you building and running and ATS. After messing with this 'new' thing and that 'new' thing I have stopped making changes and let the tank be. Much happier now. At the same time I am happy you are enjoying playing around with stuff. Its fun.

 

[Len]

Here is another thing to think about. Most of the people posting 'success' with the current version of ATS have newish tanks. They have algae problems. They put on an ATS and assume the ATS took care of the algae problem. The problem is that tanks often even out around this time and the algae goes away on 'its own'. So part of the question here is does the ATS actually do what they say it did or not. No way to tell, and there are plenty plenty of tanks that have no algae issues that don't run them. T

I have no issues at all with you building and running and ATS. After messing with this 'new' thing and that 'new' thing I have stopped making changes and let the tank be. Much happier now. At the same time I am happy you are enjoying playing around with stuff. Its fun.

The interesting thing is, all the ATS tank pics I've seen have red cotton algae. I think new hobbyists think it's prettier than green hair algae It's much harder to get rid of though.

Anyhow bfessler, try it. And do a build thread (I'd subscribe). I just don't see any good reason why you'd bother I say just concede skimmer > ATS and go experiment with the winner

 

[Len]

So is it just that were easy targets then, that can be pounced on, made to look silly and eventually we'll go away, that so much effort goes into preventing any credible effort go on here. This thread would have been about one page long if everyone simply gave their honest opinion and let it be. Were up to 4 pages now and nothing has even been done yet.

No fantastic claims in this thread, no attempts to gain converts, none of the horrible things everyone gets upset about but still lots of drama. Way back a couple pages ago when I said I had decided to try it, if the experts would have let it be there wouldn't have been any more debate and when I the system inevitably failed and I admitted such everyone would be vindicated. But instead it continues, It hasn't worked, It won't work, You won't be happy with the results, don't try, just do it our proven way, ..... Its incredible. I could see all the effort if I was in your face telling you why your wrong and I'm right but thats not the case. There are lots of pats on the back and way to go's here if someone uses your proven methods but no encouragement for anyone who steps outside the lines, even if they don't make outrageous claims or preach their experiment as the most revolutionary idea since salt mix.

Anyway this is a waste of time. I'm going to stop commenting on this thread for now until I actually have something new to post. I'll let you see my design and mock it if you will and I'll let you know if it reduces the excess algae in the tank and weather it was worth the effort to me building it, but I have better things to do than continue the debate over whether I should even build it or not. Perhaps I'll just start a new thread about the build and how it works out for anyone interested. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

There's no reason to get defensive. Everyone has been more than civil on this subject, and I don't see the drama you're seeing. It's a respectful, constructive discussion. I think you may be responding more to the other drama you've read (or maybe participated in) re: ATS and Hiatt systems.

Try whatever you'd like. All we're telling you is ATS is not new, it's proven to be vastly inferior to modern filtration, and we believe if you want a successful reef tank, learn from the experiences of tens of thousands of hobbyists and professionals. It's not about patting each other on the back or admonishing you for thinking outside the box (which going ATS really isn't ... again, this was a popular method decades ago, just as UFG and plenums had their day). I don't know why we'd encourage you to try something we have experienced and know does not work well; seems odd to me that you're expecting this