Algae Turf Scrubber, What do you think?

[bfessler]

Maybe its must my AHDD that keeps me looking at new things and trying them out (Hiatt System, Going Skimmer-less, DSB w/plenum, Coast to Coast Overflows, DIY ATO's etc.) or just that I like to build stuff and get bored with it when its done but I haven't gotten into too much trouble yet and my fish and corals are all alive and doing well so when I saw a reference to these ATS things they perked my interest. Since I am going skimmer-less on my Nano I thought this might be a good way to remove any excess Nitrates and Phosphates in my system and still be able to feed my fish and corals more. My Nitrates and Phosphates haven't been a real problem and my cleanup crew is doing a great job of cleaning the rocks but I would like to get rid of most of the crabs in the tank because they like to knock over my corals.

Anyway from what I have been reading on these things growing Turf Algae in the scrubber keeps it out of the display and keeps the nutrient levels down at the same time. They also have a side benefit of growing Pods and other stuff that feed the display. It sounds good and I don't see a negative side, other than the expense of building it.

What do you think about these contraptions?
Has anyone had any 1st hand experience good or bad with Turf Scrubbers? (hopefully they're not as controversial as when I tried the Hiatt System.)

From those who have tried them I would like you comments and if there is anything that should be designed into or out of the scrubber.

Thanks,
Burt

 

[Anonymous]

I ran one for several years starting in 1998. There have been countless threads about them and whether or not they work as advertised. Lately there has been a renaissance, and some new styles and designs have been used. Variables include, screen size, illumination strength and color, surge or water flow, and aeration.

Try this book for a start:
"A technical description of ATS and its use, along with 30 years of research literature, can be found in the graduate ecological text
DYNAMIC AQUARIA:
Building and Restoring Living Ecosystems
3rd Edition, 2007, by W.H. Adey and K. Loveland,
published by Elsevier/Academic Press
See WalterAdey.com"

 

[Anonymous]

I don't have enough direct experience to comment on turf scrubbers, but one question does occur to me. What about using a refugium instead? It serves the same purpose (nutrient export) and more people seem to use it with success. Maybe turf scrubbers do something that refugia can't, but I can't think what right now.

 

[bfessler]

Maybe turf scrubbers do something that refugia can't, but I can't think what right now.

I think your right about them both doing the same thing. From what I am reading on algeascrubber.net the new designs are like a compact supercharged refugia. Light is concentrated on a relatively small screen (1 square inch per gallon) and the unit is placed above the display so its super oxygenated water and pods feed directly into the tank without having to go through a return pump. I have been working on some preliminary drawings and I think I can keep the size down to 9"H x 12"W x 6"D. With these small dimensions I can place the box just above my Nano where it can feed my display and be easily serviced. Also since it doesn't hold water just passes water through the unit over the screen there is no chance of a flood should power fail. I just need to make the design clean enough that it doesn't look like an eye sore sitting above my display.

On the site algaescrubber.net they talk about these units being able to replace the skimmer, and other filters for nutrient export. The theory is that where a skimmer removes excess food and organic waste quickly to prevent them breaking down to nitrates and phosphates in the first place a scrubber allows the food to remain in the tank to be utilized by corals and other tank inhabitants until it goes through the nitrogen cycle. Then the nitrates and phosphates are quickly removed by the Turf Algae in the scrubber keeping these nutrients low. Supposedly you can feed the tank more and coral growth and condition is improved while maintaining near 0 nitrates and phosphates. The scrubber also helps keep micro-algae out of the display by providing a better place for it to grow (Inside the Scrubber) where excess nutrients are used up. If these new scrubber designs work as claimed it really simplifies the filtration necessary in a reef tank.

Here's a quote from a guy who is promoting the use of these scrubbers. I'm not sure I buy into everything he says but I also don't see any real danger in trying the unit out myself.

If anybody has not yet hooked up their refugium or skimmer, or was just looking get rid of these things, then you might want to try one of these mega-powerful filters that I built. You build it with stuff laying around, and it can take as little as a few minutes, or up to a day. It will replace (or keep you from needing) a skimmer, refugium, phosphate removers, nitrate removers, carbon, filtersocks, and possibly even waterchanges.

It's called a Turf Algae Filter, and it works in salt or freshwater. It's smaller than most pieces of reef equipment (yet it's more powerful), and it can be put into a bucket or your sump. It's most powerful feature is that it leaves food particles in the tank so the corals can feed, yet it removes nitrates and phosphates, most of the time down to zero. This is the OPPOSITE of what a skimmer does; a skimmer removes food particles (so corals starve) and then leaves the nitrate and phosphate in the water so you have to use other methods to get the nitrate and phosphate out. And how about all that gunk that your skimmer pulls out? Well, half of it is food that you just fed, and your corals wanted to eat it. What about the other half, the waste? Well, that's food too!

Here's the link to the thread where you can read more about it if interested. http://www.talkingreef.com/forums/g...ver-replaces-skimmer-refugium-part-1-4-a.html

So if I can keep the thing down to a manageable size that is nice looking I think I am going to give it a try. I'll probably go slow in the design build portion of the project because I don't have a real problem with nitrates or phosphates currently and the appearance of the unit is the key to using it on my display because it will be exposed to view in my family room so It can't just be made out of a bucket and some flood lamps like many of the designs I have seen. I'll keep you posted about the progress of the project as it progresses.

 

[Anonymous]

WIth the new designs, if you have a power outage or pump failure, you will lose all of the algae on the screen. The old dumpbucket design kept the screen in water if there was a failure. Something to think about.

 

[Anonymous]

Hmmm. Color me skeptical on the ability of such a small area of turf algae to do all that a skimmer etc can do now...

 

[bfessler]

WIth the new designs, if you have a power outage or pump failure, you will lose all of the algae on the screen. The old dumpbucket design kept the screen in water if there was a failure. Something to think about.

Good Point.

Hmm, in my design the screen would be completely enclosed inside an acrylic box, if the power failed the circulation fans and lights would also stop, so I think the power would have to be off for a considerable time before I would loose the algae. This would also kill power to my circulation in the tank, not a good thing either. Most power outages in my area have been of a short duration but you never know. I am comfortable with the thought that for most outages I'd be OK but may have to look into a UPS for my powerheads and pumps. That would give me some additional protection in case of an extended power failure. Guess you can never be to careful and there is always something that can go wrong and cause a disaster.

 

[bfessler]

Hmmm. Color me skeptical on the ability of such a small area of turf algae to do all that a skimmer etc can do now...

You may be right but since I am not running a skimmer now I won't be risking anything. My Nano has been running skimmerless for 6 months now and is doing fine with water 5G water changes every other week.

 

[Anonymous]

Sorry, I wasn't focussing on the fact that this was for a nano. It probably can't harm on that basis.

 

[bfessler]

No problem, I appreciate the input.

The screen size and overall size of the housing would have to be increased proportionally for larger tanks but the principle should be the same. If it works on my Nano I may try one on my 55G Frag Tank, also running skimmerless right now.

 

[Anonymous]

Dammit. You've just injected a wild card into my planning process. I hadn't even considered going skimmerless, but now I'm wondering, given the fact that I will be going for LPS, zoas, rics etc...

Just when I thought I was making progress with my planning! :lol:

 

[bfessler]

I would have a hard time advising you to go skimmerless. My tanks use the Hiatt system and Right Now Bacteria. One of the claimed benefits of this system is that the bacteria aerobically convert nutrients in the tank to free nitrogen. Since starting the Nano 6 months ago I have not had any problem with nitrates or phosphates. Is it due to the Hiatt System, or my use of Ceramic Reef Rock, or my DSB or some other reason I am not entirely sure but according to the Modified version of the Hiatt System that I use I cut back on the carbon bed for the bacteria so that the bacteria cannot utilize all the nutrients in the tank and the corals and Coraline algae will have nutrients to work with. My feeling is that the Hiatt system is great for starting a tank and has kept nutrients at a low concentration in my tank but that normal bacteria take over as the tank matures. I have been reluctant to remove the Canister Filter which holds the carbon bed because my tanks look good and I don't want to rock the boat. I travel frequently and my tank goes from 3 days to a week at a time with no intervention from me which is another reason I tried the Hiatt System as it claims the Bacteria can rapidly multiply should a problem arise in the tank. I can't scientifically say it works because I haven't done a controlled study of the system but my tank has been stable from the day I set it up and with my traveling I like that.

This is another reason for the Scrubber. It would be another redundant system should something happen to my tanks while I am away. With the now Live Ceramic Reef Rock, DSB, Right Now Bacteria and the Scrubber, and Tank Automation I feel fairly confident leaving the tank as I travel. BTW if I am gone for over a week my Dad, also a reefer, checks out my tanks once or twice a week just to make sure it's OK.

So all that being said there are lots of people on algaescrubber.net that claim they don't need a Protein Skimmer and have beautiful pictures of their tanks to prove it. Others are more skeptical. My thinking is that you could try it out, especially on a new tank and if you see nitrates and phosphates going up you can always add a skimmer and other more traditional equipment. One thing I learned from going skimmerless is you need an overflow that effectively skims the surface water in the tank to get rid of the oil slick that can form on the water surface. I accomplish this on my Nano by pointing the returns toward the surface and creating a current that flows along the glass sides and front then doubles back to the center overflow. I see almost no nutrient slick on my waters surface since setting up the returns this way. On my clown tank the coast to coast overflow pulls everything off the waters surface. Sorry to make your brain hurt with all this information. :?

Good luck on your new Tank,
Burt

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks Burt. To be honest, I will probably be boringly conventional and get a skimmer anyway, possibly with a small refugium, but the idea of a skimmerless system for coral that prefer water with a bit more life in it is alluring...

 

[bfessler]

Sounds good to me. Go with what makes you comfortable.

BTW How long have you been in Japan? I hear they have some inovative LED lighting over there.

 

[Anonymous]

I'm not there yet, but know I'll be moving there next year, so am planning already!

It might surprise you, but the aquarium hobby over there is not as developed as it is in the US IMO. Fewer hobbiests and a higher bar to entry into the hobby (equipment is much more expensive than it is in the US) has led to a market that's not so innovative or competitive. As a result, I'm likely to end up getting most of my equipment in the US and have it shipped over. Will still be a lot cheaper than buying it locally. The exception will be the tank, as I imagine the shipping costs for a large glass tank would be prohibitive...

 

[bfessler]

I see, with all the references about Japaneese I thought you were already there. If everything is so much more your wise to plan ahead and ship over what you need.

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks Burt. To be honest, I will probably be boringly conventional and get a skimmer anyway, possibly with a small refugium, but the idea of a skimmerless system for coral that prefer water with a bit more life in it is alluring...

Don't go skimmerless, just design the sump with the skimmer before the 'fuge :wink:

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks Burt. To be honest, I will probably be boringly conventional and get a skimmer anyway, possibly with a small refugium, but the idea of a skimmerless system for coral that prefer water with a bit more life in it is alluring...

Don't go skimmerless, just design the sump with the skimmer before the 'fuge :wink:

Thanks Tracey. Yeah, that's what I'd been planning anyhoo. But the idea just tempted me suddenly of getting rid of the skimmer stage. On second thoughts, I'll probably save such heresy for when I actually am able to build my dream tank, including a chaeto refugium and live rock cryptic zone bigger than the tank itself.

 

[Anonymous]

Hmmm. Color me skeptical on the ability of such a small area of turf algae to do all that a skimmer etc can do now...

Yes!
The guy promoting them has been banned from many boards due to his amazing claims and his ability to not enter into discussions with people who question him. ATS surely have their place and it may simply be the case that a lot of the reports of 'success' with the waterfall design are simply post hoc ergo proctor hoc and the same results would have been achieved by other factors.

 

[Anonymous]

This thread needs an eco-aqualizer! If run with both the Hiatt System and SM ATS you'd pretty much never need to do a water change, or use carbon/skimmer/etc.