Algae Turf Scrubber, What do you think?

[bfessler]

I don't have any real experience with the scrubber so I'm not going to try to defend them till I have tried it myself. It may be that they stink and cloud the water but I'll give it a try and let you know how it goes. Believe me if they stink it won't stay in my place very long.

 

[Len]

Yeah, that's this tank: http://www.marineaquariumsa.com/showthread.php?t=9520

It's not a bad tank, and might be one of the better algae-scrubbed tanks. But it's REALLY far behind a good modern tank like Steve Weast's:

The question remains: why bother with ATS? Skimmers are readily available and cheap these days, produce MUCH better results, and are much easier to maintain.

Reading Algaescrubbers.net is very very alarming. Go to their "pics of successfully scrubbed tanks" forum:
http://www.algaescrubber.net/forums/viewforum.php?f=7

In SantaMonica's first thread, the tank looks like slow death to me.
In the next thread, what the poster points out as "new coralline" in his photos is actually new red turf (aka cotton) algae.
Ad naseum.

 

[bfessler]

That is a beautiful tank, but I think there is more than just a skimmer going on there.

Like most all systems its how everything works together that matters. It will be interesting to see how what effect a scrubber has on my tank.

I guarantee if it smells and turns my water yellow I will let you know.

At this point I don't have enough knowledge or experience to make a rational comment for or against their use.

 

[Anonymous]

Reading Algaescrubbers.net is very very alarming.

8O on many levels

 

[Len]

That is a beautiful tank, but I think there is more than just a skimmer going on there.

Like most all systems its how everything works together that matters. It will be interesting to see how what effect a scrubber has on my tank.

I guarantee if it smells and turns my water yellow I will let you know.

At this point I don't have enough knowledge or experience to make a rational comment for or against their use.

It's good to have an open mind. But from what 99% will tell you (including people who've had experience with ATS like me), a skimmer will work much better than ATS. I really can't think of a single reason I'd go with ATS over a skimmer.

 

[bfessler]

Thanks Len,

I never thought this topic would be as contorversial as when I decided to try the Hiatt System. 99% told me that my fish would die and the corals didn't have a chance. I was really worried but decided to try it anyway. After 6 months I am pleased to say that it does work as promised and I have had less issues with my new tank then many of my friends who went the traditional route. My water is nice and clear and everything I put in my tank so far has thrived. Maybe I was just lucky but it worked for me. Actually now that I have set up 4 tanks using the system I think it wasn't so much luck but a product that acutally does perform if given a chance. It's definately not the only way to go but it is a viable option.

This Scrubber thing seems a lot less critical and if it doesn't work out I haven't lost anything other than a few bucks I could have spent on a skimmer and some time building the thing but for me that's half the fun anyway.

 

[Len]

It's controversial because of the outrageous and unscientific claims made by some of the supporters/vendors. This includes Hiatt, btw These systems may not kill everything (this claim is equally silly), but you can definitely do much much better. My opinion is if you're already studying and doing all the hard work setting up a good reef tank, why not do it the best you can with a proven methodology?

 

[bfessler]

I guess its the non-conformist in me. I never really liked coloring between the lines.

 

[Anonymous]

Yeah, that's this tank: http://www.marineaquariumsa.com/showthread.php?t=9520

Impressive tank, but I see a lot of red cotton candy algae on the rocks. Not saying that a skimmer would necessarily take care of that, but the claims of the ATS are that it makes all algae in the tank simply disappear...

ATS tend to yellow the water with all the tanic and humic acids algae leeches back. I guess you can use carbon to help with this though. But still, I couldn't get SPS to do well with ATS, even though nitrates read very low (lower than with my skimmed tanks). I'm almost tempted to theorize that algae produces chemicals to impede stony coral growth.

Yup.

 

[Anonymous]

Sorry getting back to this late in the game. Apologies if this all has been covered.

Hmmm. Color me skeptical on the ability of such a small area of turf algae to do all that a skimmer etc can do now...

Yes!
The guy promoting them has been banned from many boards due to his amazing claims and his ability to not enter into discussions with people who question him. ATS surely have their place and it may simply be the case that a lot of the reports of 'success' with the waterfall design are simply post hoc ergo proctor hoc and the same results would have been achieved by other factors.

This thread needs an eco-aqualizer! If run with both the Hiatt System and SM ATS you'd pretty much never need to do a water change, or use carbon/skimmer/etc.

It appears that there is a lot of skepticism regarding new ideas and systems and rightly so.

I guess that's part of it right there. ATS is not a new idea.

The problem with most of these new things is the lack of controlled studies to document their effectiveness and claims. Unfortunately controlled studies take time and resources that few of us have to dedicate to proving a particular system works or is bogus. There are so many different ways to have a successful reef that anyone's results can be duplicated in other ways.

Its even worse than that because changes get credited to the last thing the reefer tried - it happened after, therefore was caused by. We see this problem in ich treatments all the time. I swear to you someone strongly told me that they changed their light bulb and it cleared up the ich. From what I have seen of the new ATS stuff is that they are mostly on newish tanks that are prolly going to fix up regardless.

If there is a product that I can evaluate without causing harm to my system I am not opposed to it. I really appreciate criticism from others that have actually tried the systems as opposed to those who just jump on the bashing band wagon. 99% of those who bash the Hiatt System have never actually tried it, but because it's different than the generally accepted methods out there for some reason feel threatened and need to do all they can to stop people form using it. I am equally annoyed by products peddled as revolutionary with many claims that cannot be verified or are truly bogus, Eco-Aqualizer comes to mind.

Which makes you doing Hiatt so interesting! As you say, there are a million ways to frag a reef.

So how do we sort out what's truly new and exciting from the crap being peddled out there?

I am more interested in sorting the 'crap' from what is currently being recycled as this months new and exciting idea.

I think it's through boards like this where hobbyists report what they are doing and how it works. I generally through out the claims of the Manufacturer or someone trying to peddle their wares because they're pushing product. I also through out the criticism of good intentioned people who have never tried the product but still feel the need to bash it. I try to find information from other hobbyists that have actually tried the product, hoping for a good result and willing to share their experience with others. This information is sometimes difficult to find particularly when a person hesitates to share their experience for fear of ridicule.

I agree with one addendum - wait a year or two and then see what the reports say.

I am the first one to admit that I have used some systems that are controversial, but I don't tell anyone they should do what I am doing, I just report for better or worse what I have done and how it worked for me and thats the kind of information I am looking for when I research a product before trying it out.

I love you!

 

[bfessler]

:lol: :lol: :lol:

This is so much fun. I love all the drama. I haven't even started building a scrubber and there is so much excitement.

Seriously though I do appreciate everyones comments and views on the subject which is why I asked the question What Do You Think? Everyones comments have been for the most part constructive and I think in good humor. I have heard from a few people in my local club that have used scrubbers in the past with success. Some quit because the maintenance was to much and others for various reasons, but Len is the first to tell me that he quit using them because he didn't like the results and thats good to know also.

As with any project I attempt I always make sure there is a fall back scenario in case of disaster though I don't foresee a major meltdown of the system because of this experiment. I have 2 other tanks fully cycled and ready should this one start to crash. I really would hate to see any of my livestock suffer unnecessarily.

I'm not sure how long it will take me to actually build the scrubber but as I stated earlier it has to look fairly decent or my wife won't let me put it on my display tank in the family room so it won't just look like a light clipped to a bucket. If and when I do get it built I'll try not to change anything else on the tank so changes to the tank should be related mostly to the addition of the scrubber. I will take a full set of water quality tests weekly to monitor water quality and pictures for visual documentation. The biggest worry for me is if it smells bad. Bad smell and or yellow water will signal unsatisfactory results, after all the goal is to improve the quality of the water and appearance of the display. If it fails you can all tell me I was warned but if it actually does improve the overall quality of my tank I hope that everyone will be able to accept that it is just another option among many available options that can work out if properly applied. I don't expect everyone to run out and build their own scrubbers if mine is a success any more than I expected people to start trying the Hiatt System because it worked for me.

Keep those comments coming.
:roll:

 

[WRASSER]

lol, you are FIRED :!: bfessler, you caused all this... ... lol just kidding :mrgreen: :wink:

 

[Anonymous]

BTW - the water level in my tank varies and as a result I grow turf on my euro bracing. Scraping it is a nasty, stinky PITA.

 

[blackcloudmedia]

Im just having flashbacks of the Santamonica guys articles.....shivers

 

[bfessler]

I missed the days of Santa Monica so I didn't understand what all the hoopla was about. Just went back and read some of his posts. Looks like he was just looking for a place to preach about his ideas and looking for deciles. Thats one of my pet peeves about product pushers. He, like the guy who runs Majesticreefs.com pushing the Hiatt System are as closed minded as the guys that bash their products without any real experience with them. It's hard to get any good information about the product form either source.

I assure you I am not trying to push my ideas on anyone, they're not even my ideas, I came across them form a member of my local club that had used a scrubber and it interested me. I just found out about this Santa Monica guy when trying to research algae scrubbers. I prefer to read about others experiences and decide if it makes since to try it my self. I also like to pass along my experience just to add to the information already out there about the product. This way people have unbiased information and can make their own conclusions about weather a product works or not.

 

[Anonymous]

Correct me if I am wrong, but, isn't that Snake (Hiatt) himself on the MajesticReef.net site?

 

[Anonymous]

FWIW I have used both the EcoAqualizer and mutliple ATS... I am not bashing what I haven't tried. The AE was utterly useless. ATS was fine for what it is, but I find I can run a tighter system that requires less fiddling then an ATS.

 

[Anonymous]

That is a beautiful tank, but I think there is more than just a skimmer going on there.

Like most all systems its how everything works together that matters. It will be interesting to see how what effect a scrubber has on my tank.

I guarantee if it smells and turns my water yellow I will let you know.

At this point I don't have enough knowledge or experience to make a rational comment for or against their use.

Well in terms of filtration he used only a skimmer, GFO reactor and the tank was run Berlin style (live sand/live rock). He did use a CA reactor, but, none of the systems you've posted on do anything for CA/ALK/MG replacement so that is something we don't need to talk about.

http://oregonreef.com/sub_plumbing.htm

 

[Len]

Thats one of my pet peeves about product pushers. He, like the guy who runs Majesticreefs.com pushing the Hiatt System are as closed minded as the guys that bash their products without any real experience with them. It's hard to get any good information about the product form either source.

The thing is, some of the things these product pushers state are just plain silly and unscientific. It invites bashing from the get-go. If you see a guy running around declaring sneezes are caused by demons trying to escape your body and you should buy his potion to cure you of these demons, you'd probably bash him too.

 

[bfessler]

Correct me if I am wrong, but, isn't that Snake (Hiatt) himself on the MajesticReef.net site?

I don't think so but I'm not sure. Back in March when I first tried researching the Hiatt System I came across the site. I think a guy named Richard owns the site. I got the impression that he was a close friend of Hiatt. I have never met nor spoken with Hiatt myself.

When I first contacted Richard he was very helpful, answering my e-mail messages and advising how I could set up my Nano to work with the system. His site was written terribly and full of grammatical and spelling errors. I told him if he wanted anyone to take him seriously he needed to town down his rhetoric and get someone fluent in English to proofread and make corrections to the text. He did fix some of the spelling but grammar and rhetoric are still bad.

FWIW I have used both the EcoAqualizer and multiple ATS... I am not bashing what I haven't tried. The AE was utterly useless. ATS was fine for what it is, but I find I can run a tighter system that requires less fiddling then an ATS.

I agree that the EA is bogus. Found an online source that ran scientific tests on the claims of the EcoAqualizer there was no measurable benefit installing the tubing with magnets taped to it on a tank. Thanks for the assessment of the ATS

Finally the reason I brought up that there was more going on in that beautiful tank pictured by Len is only that the appearance of every tank is the sum total of all the systems and products used. Just as showing a beautiful tank with a scrubber doesn't prove that the scrubber is responsible for it, showing a beautiful tank with a skimmer doesn't mean that the skimmer is responsible for the total condition of the tank. Pull out any one of the other systems used and you won't have the same results. A beautiful tank is a combination of the total package of systems and products, and the skill and artistic ability of the builder.

I hope to encourage other hobbyists to be more open minded, and more encouraging when others try new things or look for new applications for old ways of doing things. This doesn't mean that we should keep quiet when someone makes ridiculous claims and try to pass them off as facts. To quote Dion on utahreefs.com "I know what works for me and it might not work for others. However I'm not going to crucify someone for their beliefs. If it works great. If it doesn't then lesson learned." Letting hobbyists try products or ideas and allowing them to sink or swim will build their skills as reefers. This has to be good for the hobbyist and the hobby. If everyone simply followed the same accepted blueprint for keeping a reef what is really learned? Only how to follow instructions and not how systems interact. Hobbyists that only follow instructions have to ask for help every time something changes in the tank. They will become dependent on others to keep their systems going. Trying new and old things broadens the skill set of the individual and like Dion said, If it doesn't work, LESSON LEARNED.