What not to own...

[lfsmarineguy]

As a side bar to this topic, not to long ago it was crazy to think we could keep acros alive in captivity and now look where the hobby is. If it wasn't for intrepid hobbyists and scientists pushing the limits of what we saw as limits we wouldn't have any of the corals or equipment we have now. I'm not saying we all need to go out and buy everything we can get our hands on but the proper recording and logging of failures can open doors outright success sometimes can't. This hobby is still very young and at the rate we're going through advances and increasing our knowledge we might come up with some pretty amazing breakthroughs in husbandry among other areas.

 

[MatthewScars]

My pair of cleaners dont bother with anything but when i feed my RTBA a silver side. But my hosted clown aggressively chases them away.

i wouldn't get any shrimp other than a sexi shrimp.
all the others make my zoos close and still food when i'm target feeding.
and they're a pain to catch.

 

[ellebelle]

As a side bar to this topic, not to long ago it was crazy to think we could keep acros alive in captivity and now look where the hobby is. If it wasn't for intrepid hobbyists and scientists pushing the limits of what we saw as limits we wouldn't have any of the corals or equipment we have now. I'm not saying we all need to go out and buy everything we can get our hands on but the proper recording and logging of failures can open doors outright success sometimes can't. This hobby is still very young and at the rate we're going through advances and increasing our knowledge we might come up with some pretty amazing breakthroughs in husbandry among other areas.

Well said.

 

[Will C]

There are a few things that we really can't keep - carnation corals, most nudibranches and sea slugs, many starfish, harlequin sweetlips

I have a real oddball mix in my 90, A mix of what the LFS had left and what my 8yr old said "Daddy, I love that one" That one is Dotty the Harlequin Sweetlips. I have had the fish over a year and it went from a 54 to a 90, eats mysis, bothers nothing and is a gentle tankmate - I rarely doubt member's experience so what can I expect (other than a 20" fish!)

 

[marrone]

Your tank is your responsibility. To say a store mislead you or gave you false information isn't the stores fault when there are web resources and forums like this all over the place. There is nobody on the face of this planet that can screw up your tank, but you.

To say that a store can mislead your or gave you false information and that it isn't the stores fault, as there are web resources for people to look at, is pure BS. The store, and the people that working there, have a responsibility not to mislead people and sell things that are hard or impossible to keep, especially to people that don't have the experience, setup or resources to keep the fish or coral alive. LFS that will give a BS story, just so they can sell a fish or coral, are at fault just as much as the person buying the item and in some case more. And lets not get into products, setups or plumbing recommandations.

Letting a LFS off the hook because there are resource on the web is nonsense.

 

[marrone]

I have a real oddball mix in my 90, A mix of what the LFS had left and what my 8yr old said "Daddy, I love that one" That one is Dotty the Harlequin Sweetlips. I have had the fish over a year and it went from a 54 to a 90, eats mysis, bothers nothing and is a gentle tankmate - I rarely doubt member's experience so what can I expect (other than a 20" fish!)

Consider yourself lucky, as well as the fish, as most don't eat and even the ones that do usually die.

 

[Will C]

I agree w/ not letting the LFS off the hook - My tank was 1 week past its cycle and the LFS said a yellow tang, harlequin sweetlips, 6 line wrasse,yellow tail damsel and a pair of percs would be perfect in my 54 corner. My fault for not researching but the LFS's fault for their advice (also sold me a goniopora knowing I had no powerheads for water movement, 45 days RIP) I am VERY dissappointed in this particular store and haven't darkend its doorstep since that first month. All we can do w/ a LFS that has only short term vision is stop buying there.
On the brighter side, my sweetlips is a active, happy fish - eating well (knock on wood) and a fave of the kids. The tang is an extremely bright yellow and dosen't chase anyone, the damsel is, well, a damnsel and the sixline is active. The percs - RIP.
any advice on the sweetlips? it is a fan favorite

 

[marrone]

any advice on the sweetlips? it is a fan favorite

I would just keep doing what you're doing, as it seems you got a good one.

The best thing would be to eventually move it to a larger tank, as they do get pretty big. Also make sure it doesn't have any aggressive tank mates, which could give it problems, bully it and compete with it for food.

 

[lfsmarineguy]

I'm not using the word "mislead" in the malicious or intentional sense. I've worked in the business enough to have met a lot of people who think they are passing along good info when it is in fact completely off base. The fact is that, and this applies to every aspect of people's daily lives, there is a general lack of, or unwillingness to, have any sort of personal accountablity. "The guy at the store told me an octopus was reef safe and now it ate all my inverts and is hiding in a tiny hole in the rocks" is not on the head of anyone except the purchaser. If you aren't doing your due diligence by researching at home prior to purchasing livestock, you are wrong. I'm still surprised by how many people have no idea what palytoxin is. In a perfect world there is no misinformation and every animal comes with an owner's manual, but that isn't this world. You wouldn't buy a car or appliance without looking at the possible options and weighing the pros and cons, so why go into a fish store completely unarmed? It's just personal accountability.

 

[marrone]

Some people use advise from LFS as part of their research, and a LFS that gives out bad advise, or not all the facts, is just as wrong as the person who doesn't do all their homework, and in some case even more. I've seen many LFS tell people that what they've read on the internet or in books isn't correct, only to be wrong or to have left out certain facts. You'll usually find this to be the case when a LFS has something to sell. So when the person goes home with the item, and then has problems, should the LFS taken any blame for this? Of course they should, just like any other sales man who give out bad advise just to sell things. Remember very few people are going to walk into a store and know everything about a product or item, even after doing a lot of research, so there is still going to be some reliance on a saleman.

It's interesting that you want people to be personal accountable but not the LFS, who is selling things and giving out advise, and in some case expert advise. A LFS that lies, gives out bad advise, or not all the facts, is just as responsible as a customer that doesn't do all their homework. So if something does go wrong there is accountability on both sides, so don't let a LFS off because you can do reseach on the internet before hand.

 

[lfsmarineguy]

I'm not absolving the store of any responsibility, I'm saying that the ultimate responsibility is on the tank owner. Unless you are physically coerced into buying something, it is ultimately your responsibility to make sure what you put in your tank is ok. I am not saying stores are free to disseminate whatever information they feel is necessary to make a sale, just that in listening to what someone says without further investigation is just as, if not more, irresponsible.

 

[KathyC]

When a consumer is in a store and something jumps out at them that they are not familiar with but are in awe of, the majority of LFS's also sell books or keep them on hand as reference tools and they should be using those to make their decisions based on fact and not the sometimes uninformed or misleading advice of someone who is there to sell.
If the comsumer cannot get the info there, they should wait on the purchase until they can make an informed decision.
IMO both parties bear responsibility.

 

[marrone]

Yes in the end it's the tank owner that has the final say what goes into his or her tank but LFS give advise and push products on people. A lot of People go by what the LFS tells them, and a lot of time they will tell them that what they've read is wrong. Also there will also be times that not a lot information is available, or in some case none is available, so the buyer is heavily relying on the LFS. You'll even have LFS swear what they say is correct, and in turn it's not. The worst part is that most of the time the LFS knows what they're saying is wrong, now that is irresponsible. It works both way and a lot of hobbyist don't do enough homework, and a lot don't listen, especially in the begining. So both can and do share in the blame.

 

[lfsmarineguy]

so we're all in agreement than? :inlove:

 

[michael stern]

I had my idol 4 1/2 years.
RIP, but figure he had a pretty good life in my tank.

 

[Will C]

I find the concept that the LFS is as culpable or even less culpable than the hobbyist equal to 'toiletpaper ethics'. I run a small business where people come to me for advice, I cannot assume that a client I have never met, has a level of knowledge that lets me give advice which enables me to profit without a certainty my new client will be better off. A LFS that is caveat emptor is no friend to the hobby - there IS a responsibility and the reward to the LFS is customer loyalty.
I called Michael Stern to buy a couple of fish and he immediatly asked me ab my tank, it's inhabitants and suggested I hold off on my purchase until I 'fix my mix of fish' great advice, he could have easily made a quick $75.00 and been done. That is the difference. Now I enjoy the fish that I have and know, from my 15 min conversation w/ Michael, what I will buy when my current fish 'move on' be it in 6 mos or 6 years. I also know where I will buy those fish. That is the difference.
I don't usually get this 'fired up' but responsibility and accountability are core elements in a successful business - any business. Thanks Michael

 

[marrone]

so we're all in agreement than? :inlove:

I think we're all in agreement there is enough blame to go around.

 

[lfsmarineguy]

Will, you're completely missing what I said. I'm not saying stores can say what they want to make a sale. I'm not saying I say whatever I need to to make a sale. I'm not saying I'll pass on bad advice knowingly or unknowingly. I refuse sales all the time. I'm saying you are the keeper of your reef and you are ultimately responsible for it's success, nobody else. If you can get good trustworthy help along the way than you are far ahead of some. I would literally die of shock if I went a week without hearing about a yellow/hippo/clown/sohal tang or (insert any large fish) someone was keeping in a 55 or smaller. Until the government appoints a subcommittee to draft laws and monitor what everyone keeps in their tanks the responsibility is in the hands of the tanks owner. If you went to the supermarket and some kid told you what you should feed your kid would you blindly follow their advice or would you look into it? What qualifies this person to give you that advice? Because they wear a shirt with the stores name on it they must be trustworthy?

You wouldn't listen to just anyone when it comes to other aspects of daily life so why give over the reigns so easily when it comes to your tank?

This thread needs some sort of structure and to get back on track. It has potential to turn into something good maybe even a database for the search but if everyone just posts saying that anything that has ever died in their tank should be left in the ocean it will be useless. Maybe even a section of the site for fish profiles with basic information as far as minimum tank sizes, known diet and where to get it if need be, locality, compatibility, skill level, etc. I know it's in books and other places on the web but why not. Maybe even a few member reviews for each like on movie sites lol.

 

[Pinkheine]

I think this thread from the start really didn't go where I expected. I simply wasn't specific I guess, idk.

This hobby has grown in leap and bounds. There are things that were unable to be kept years ago and progress has been made, considerable progress. Though at what cost vs benefit (not looking to debate this here just food for thought)?

I know for myself we are in the infancy stages when it comes to this hobby and we have kept a saltwater tank for over 8 years. We have only had our reef up for almost a year. Still even with the best care, prime tank conditions aren't there things that should just remain in the Oceans? Ideally everything should-- could be some perspective/there is also the other end of the spectrum regarding that--again not looking to debate just food for thought.

I guess I was looking for was more a list of critters that have a very low success rate or that have a high end negative impact on removing them from the world's Oceans. And reasoning behind why.

Yes ultimately it goes to owner responsibility and what that person weighs as benefits vs negatives and their own personal experience, research and opinions. Though most if not all my knowledge that I have gained here and elsewhere has come from others and has been cause for doing more and more of my own research on the subjects in question.

 

[ellebelle]

Maybe even a section of the site for fish profiles with basic information as far as minimum tank sizes, known diet and where to get it if need be, locality, compatibility, skill level, etc. I know it's in books and other places on the web but why not. Maybe even a few member reviews for each like on movie sites lol.

ahem ...

http://www.manhattanreefs.com/forum/fish-database/