Unlimited Edition

[Alfredo De La Fe]

For some it is a matter of necessity. Let's face it, this is NOT a cheap hobby. For instance, I had to sell frags because my electric bill alone was over $350 per month. It was either sell frags to help defray SOME of the expense or give up my 180. You needed money for whatever reason and you "hated" selling frags, but your circumstances (whatever they were) put you in the akward position.

I think the problem is not that people are selling frags. The problem is that some have made it into a "big" business when in reality they are not doing it seriously or it is a "side" thing to make extra money. Let's face it, when MR first started up and for a few years afterwards it was a great group of friends and like minded individuals that shared a hobby. Since, it has increasingly become more commercial. I am not criticizing, the owner(s) are entitled to cover their costs and get paid for their work. Running a site that is this involved takes a LOT of time and resources and I am sure that it went from being something done part time for fun to actually being work.

I have often given away frags and excess equipment, but I did it because I felt like it, not out of obligation. My reef tank runs me somewhere in the neighborhood of $5,000-$10,000 per year between electric, maintenance, supplies, bulbs, etc. Add to this the roughly $20,000+ I have spent on it and it is safe to say that my corals were far from "free". Under ideal circumstances I would gladly give away frags for free. But when business got ugly and choices had to be made to give up the tank or try to cover part of the expense from selling or trading frags, I chose the option that let me keep my tank. I feel that I did right by every single person that purchased frags from me. For $10-20 I gave them small colonies in most cases.

Unfortunately I lost practically everything to one of the several blackouts, but that is neither here nor there... At least I know that the corals I had still live on and chances are they are being taken good care.

Alfred

Sorry I'm not letting you slide here. I've given away a gazillion more corals for free on this site than the amount I made selling that one time. The point is, for some of us, this a hobby and not an opportunity to make money or even break even and for some, unlike your quite strong suggestion, it is not cheap fast growing "worthless" corals that we give away, but simply any coral that has grown to the point of needing fragging. If I pay $80 for a coral, I buy it because I want it. If It grows to the point of being fraggable, I don't view it as an opportunity to recoup my $80, I view it as an opportunity to spread the coral around.

This is the way the hobby used to be for the majority of us. Sadly, IMO it is now something very different.

And no I didn't pay a premium for most of my coral, in fact I didn't pay at all for much of it which is exactly my point. Most of it came from trading with or being paid back by like minded hobbyists.

 

[James]

For some it is a matter of necessity. Let's face it, this is NOT a cheap hobby. For instance, I had to sell frags because my electric bill alone was over $350 per month. It was either sell frags to help defray SOME of the expense or give up my 180. You needed money for whatever reason and you "hated" selling frags, but your circumstances (whatever they were) put you in the akward position.

I think the problem is not that people are selling frags. The problem is that some have made it into a "big" business when in reality they are not doing it seriously or it is a "side" thing to make extra money. Let's face it, when MR first started up and for a few years afterwards it was a great group of friends and like minded individuals that shared a hobby. Since, it has increasingly become more commercial. I am not criticizing, the owner(s) are entitled to cover their costs and get paid for their work. Running a site that is this involved takes a LOT of time and resources and I am sure that it went from being something done part time for fun to actually being work.

I have often given away frags and excess equipment, but I did it because I felt like it, not out of obligation. My reef tank runs me somewhere in the neighborhood of $5,000-$10,000 per year between electric, maintenance, supplies, bulbs, etc. Add to this the roughly $20,000+ I have spent on it and it is safe to say that my corals were far from "free". Under ideal circumstances I would gladly give away frags for free. But when business got ugly and choices had to be made to give up the tank or try to cover part of the expense from selling or trading frags, I chose the option that let me keep my tank. I feel that I did right by every single person that purchased frags from me. For $10-20 I gave them small colonies in most cases.

Unfortunately I lost practically everything to one of the several blackouts, but that is neither here nor there... At least I know that the corals I had still live on and chances are they are being taken good care.

Alfred

Both you and prattreef have salient and valid points. It is certainly an expensive hobby and I do not think there is any problem with people selling coral in most cases. I guess what I feel is that when it is a hobby, it should be a hobby, if you want it to be become a business (even if you really love it) your business sense takes over and it stops being a hobby. At this point it becomes a mean to an end. This is the part that bothers me, we cannot have all chiefs and no Indians, as the saying goes. A welcome post Alfred.

-James

 

[Alfredo De La Fe]

James:

I dont "completely" agree here. There is nothing better than to enjoy/love what you do for a living. Where the problem comes in is that we live in the "eBay generation", everyone feels they can become a dealer in whatever product they have a passing interest in.

There is a reason why vendors charge more. It costs money to run a business and to properly care and support for the items they sell.

I know of several people that were able to turn this hobby into a business and took it quite seriously. Tim of Tim's Aquatics is a great example. He has made a big investment- he purchased a truck, stocks supplies and has dotted his i's and crossed his t's. He still loves what he does. Granted, I am sure he is feeling the economic crunch, but he does a great job at a reasonable price and I prefer to use him because he IS a hobbyist, someone that has a passion for what he does. And yes, he has GIVEN me frags on ocassion.

I certainly understand where you are coming from. I am floored that vendors (and individuals) have the nerve to charge $150+ for a spec of a frag just because it is the "flavor of the month". But as long as there are knuckleheads with deep pockets willing to pay them the prices will continue to rise.

Alfred

Both you and prattreef have salient and valid points. It is certainly an expensive hobby and I do not think there is any problem with people selling coral in most cases. I guess what I feel is that when it is a hobby, it should be a hobby, if you want it to be become a business (even if you really love it) your business sense takes over and it stops being a hobby. At this point it becomes a mean to an end. This is the part that bothers me, we cannot have all chiefs and no Indians, as the saying goes. A welcome post Alfred.

-James

 

[SWITCH420]

You don't need to frag Kenya Trees. Once they reach a good size, they do that themselves.

one just did about 4-5 stalks went floating away lol

 

[sanjay]

I don't think there is any clear right or wrong side of these arguments. As the hobby gets expensive, as Alfred said its not difficult to justify selling some frags of stuff that you would other wise throw away or give away. And if that makes it easier for people to stay in the hobby then its good for the hobby.

What does floor me is what I consider outrageous prices for teeny tiny frags chopped up from corals that are hyped up to be the flavor of the month. As with everything else, as long as there are buyers there will be sellers charging whatever the market is willing to bear. Unfortunately, it becomes a pyramid scheme with the ones on top reaping the benefits.

Over the years there has definitely been a shift in the mentality of this hobby, and I have seen it over the last 20 years. For better or worse I can't really say, but definitely not in the direction I want to be. I still have my circle of friends and acquaintances with whom I trade, exchange and give away frags without expecting anything in return. I still sell a few frags here and there to justify some indulgent purchases. I get a lot of enjoyment out of the hobby and I intend to keep it that way, mostly by associating with like minded individuals. Sure, just like Cali reef I have also been burned by people in the hobby, but for every one such person there are other polar opposites that have become my life long friends. Take the risk, you never know what you will find . Reef Karma is a wonderful thing.


My advice is to find the group of people you are comfortable with and if you want to change things do it with action rather than convincing people with words.

sanjay.

 

[Alfredo De La Fe]

I will add one more thing to what Sanjay wrote below. I also have a bit of a problem with stores and vendors that buy wild colonies and cut them up into half inch frags, glue them on discs and have them out the door for 1000% what they paid for the entire colony within 24 hours.

I dont really mind the above in a place that maintains growout tanks and actually take it seriously, because they are providing a service. But some places just churn out "frags"...

Alfred

I don't think there is any clear right or wrong side of these arguments. As the hobby gets expensive, as Alfred said its not difficult to justify selling some frags of stuff that you would other wise throw away or give away. And if that makes it easier for people to stay in the hobby then its good for the hobby.

What does floor me is what I consider outrageous prices for teeny tiny frags chopped up from corals that are hyped up to be the flavor of the month. As with everything else, as long as there are buyers there will be sellers charging whatever the market is willing to bear. Unfortunately, it becomes a pyramid scheme with the ones on top reaping the benefits.

Over the years there has definitely been a shift in the mentality of this hobby, and I have seen it over the last 20 years. For better or worse I can't really say, but definitely not in the direction I want to be. I still have my circle of friends and acquaintances with whom I trade, exchange and give away frags without expecting anything in return. I still sell a few frags here and there to justify some indulgent purchases. I get a lot of enjoyment out of the hobby and I intend to keep it that way, mostly by associating with like minded individuals. Sure, just like Cali reef I have also been burned by people in the hobby, but for every one such person there are other polar opposites that have become my life long friends. Take the risk, you never know what you will find . Reef Karma is a wonderful thing.


My advice is to find the group of people you are comfortable with and if you want to change things do it with action rather than convincing people with words.

sanjay.

 

[James]

The money part of the hobby isn't really what I meant to gripe about. It's really the mentality of some reefers that seems to contradict the beautiful parts of this hobby. The only thing someone can do is to be true to their values and let that show in any interactions they have withfellow reefers.

Alfred, There is no disagreement from me, doing what you love for a living is the way to go (I am lucky I get to do that as a teacher). There are plenty of honorable vendors and even more honorable hobbyists out there. I never said otherwise.

Sanjay,
A quick response to one of your comments:

"if you want to change things do it with action rather than convincing people with words"

Actions of course speak loudest but words and ideas can be important as well and shouldn't be marginalized as hollow. Both can be effective. I agree sometimes people are full of !*#@ but that doesn't mean there are others who aren't. Post counts and join dates can be deceiving.

On a side note, your clown-breeding experience was a really interesting read, thank you for that.

James

 

[prattreef]

Just to clear up my position which I think has been slightly muddied-- I have no issue with hobbyists selling frags for reasonable prices, nor do I have issue with vendors selling livestock for whatever they think they can get for it. What I do question is hobbyists being caught up in the marketing hype of the collector mentality so common in the hobby today, not for the collecting itself, but because this orientation pushes people toward operating on the frag level never letting stuff grow out because you need to recoup your $$$$ so you can buy the next latest frag.

I originally jumped in on this thread simply to challenge the notion that the only stuff people give away for free is the cheap and easy stuff which I strongly contend is not the case. I think the point of this whole thread is to make people think a little more carefully about how they approach the hobby, what their priorities are and how they might re-think the notion that selling stuff is the only way to go. The truth is, as Sanjay and others have pointed out, a lot of hobbyists give stuff away all the time, and the historical fact is that this used to be the norm. I just think we can do a better job of foregrounding these facts and by doing so, help shift what amounts to a philosophical perspective on the hobby that IMO has drifted too far in one direction.

BTW, nice to see you back on the board Alfredo, we miss your contributions.

 

[Alfredo De La Fe]

Hey Randy:

One point you made really clarifies things, although you may not realize it. ;-) When did the hobby shift to a "collector mentality"?

I never viewed myself as a collector, I saw it more as a gardener or painter. I want to have a beautiful aquarium. The idea of trying to get the latest/"coolest" frag never crossed my mind, if I buy/trade or accept a free frag of a coral it is because I like the way it looks and/or it fits with the theme of my tank.

Thanks for the welcome. You guys almost lost me, between having a second baby, business was seriously hurting and I lost almost everything after two back to back blackouts which wiped my tank out (the last one had me without power for almost three days during the summer) I seriously considered selling everything off. But I have decided to give it another go. It is still VERY painful. I had some BEAUTIFUL corals that I had grown very patiently from 1 inch frags to the size of dinner plates and the nicest died. I hope I can get some frags back of the corals I had, that would make me feel a whole lot better.

Best,

Alfred

Just to clear up my position which I think has been slightly muddied-- I have no issue with hobbyists selling frags for reasonable prices, nor do I have issue with vendors selling livestock for whatever they think they can get for it. What I do question is hobbyists being caught up in the marketing hype of the collector mentality so common in the hobby today, not for the collecting itself, but because this orientation pushes people toward operating on the frag level never letting stuff grow out because you need to recoup your $$$$ so you can buy the next latest frag.

I originally jumped in on this thread simply to challenge the notion that the only stuff people give away for free is the cheap and easy stuff which I strongly contend is not the case. I think the point of this whole thread is to make people think a little more carefully about how they approach the hobby, what their priorities are and how they might re-think the notion that selling stuff is the only way to go. The truth is, as Sanjay and others have pointed out, a lot of hobbyists give stuff away all the time, and the historical fact is that this used to be the norm. I just think we can do a better job of foregrounding these facts and by doing so, help shift what amounts to a philosophical perspective on the hobby that IMO has drifted too far in one direction.

BTW, nice to see you back on the board Alfredo, we miss your contributions.

 

[ellebelle]

Alfredo, what you said about being a "gardner" really resonates with me as that is how I feel about my tank. I am definitely in the same boat with you and Randy - it's not about collecting the "new hot thing" - for me it was always have a variety of shapes and color that I could watch grow and mature. And I feel your pain on the blackout as I just lost my entire tank to a moving tragedy. It is hard to start back up again from scratch, but it is equally hard not to.

 

[Alfredo De La Fe]

Lissa-

I dont have many corals left, but you are welcome to frags of what I do. (Actually, a few nice corals) I have a Acropora milli that is red with blue tips and a beautiful pink birds nest.

Alfred

 

[prattreef]

Hey Randy:

One point you made really clarifies things, although you may not realize it. ;-) When did the hobby shift to a "collector mentality"?

I never viewed myself as a collector, I saw it more as a gardener or painter. I want to have a beautiful aquarium. The idea of trying to get the latest/"coolest" frag never crossed my mind, if I buy/trade or accept a free frag of a coral it is because I like the way it looks and/or it fits with the theme of my tank.

Thanks for the welcome. You guys almost lost me, between having a second baby, business was seriously hurting and I lost almost everything after two back to back blackouts which wiped my tank out (the last one had me without power for almost three days during the summer) I seriously considered selling everything off. But I have decided to give it another go. It is still VERY painful. I had some BEAUTIFUL corals that I had grown very patiently from 1 inch frags to the size of dinner plates and the nicest died. I hope I can get some frags back of the corals I had, that would make me feel a whole lot better.

Best,

Alfred

Regarding when. it is hard to say-slowly over the past decade for sure spreading East from largely Western roots --I'd say the past 2-3 years though has seen the predominant orientation become collector like as opposed to the gardener or painter approach you describe.

It must be an interesting shift for you as a rare coin dealer/collector where that hobby is all about the collection and the value.

Glad you stuck with it. Need any frags? :biggrin:

 

[ellebelle]

Lissa-

I dont have many corals left, but you are welcome to frags of what I do. (Actually, a few nice corals) I have a Acropora milli that is red with blue tips and a beautiful pink birds nest.

Alfred

Thanks Alfred, that is an awesome offer and one I will surely take you up on eventually. When I say I lost everything, I mean I lost EVERYTHING and I had to bleach and cook my rock. My rock is still cycling, so I'm a ways away from SPS again.

 

[Alfredo De La Fe]

I started as a coin dealer right after 9/11. My telecom/IT business was shut down for 3 months (I was within a few blocks of "ground zero") and the opportunity presented itself to turn my hobby into a business. ;-)

I actually enjoy being an ancient coin dealer because it gives me an opportunity to study history and hold coins in my hands that I otherwise would not have ever been able to own.

If you are serious about the frags, I certainly would appreciate them! My 180 looks awefully empty with the few survivers and the few frags I picked up a few days ago. But one thing I learned after a lot of time in this hobby is that it is always best to be patient. It took me a year originally, but my tank was really looking GREAT, so I will start over with a dozen or so frags and carefully prune them and care for them over the next year.

The most painful loses for me were a green "hairy" milli that had INSANE polyp extension and grew several inches a month (common, but BEAUTIFUL), my blue/purple tort, my neon green birdsnest, my golden table and my colorful stylophora. I learned my lesson though, I have set up a 40 gallon tank at my mother's home and will be stocking it with frags from my 180 as soon as they grow out.

Best,

Alfred

Regarding when. it is hard to say-slowly over the past decade for sure spreading East from largely Western roots --I'd say the past 2-3 years though has seen the predominant orientation become collector like as opposed to the gardener or painter approach you describe.

It must be an interesting shift for you as a rare coin dealer/collector where that hobby is all about the collection and the value.

Glad you stuck with it. Need any frags? :biggrin:

 

[Alfredo De La Fe]

Lissa:

The offer stands for whenever you are ready for them. I know what it is like to lose everything and whatever I can do to ease the heartbreak would be my pleasure.

Alfred

 

[prattreef]

Of course I'm serious. Shoot me a PM and we'll work something out.

 

[House of Laughter]

Lissa,

Being a good customer has it's benefits - let me know when you're ready to restock and we'll take care of you.

Jim

 

[dnreef]

This topic seems to come around every so often. In general I don't like to knock vendors or retailers. At the end of the day if you believe in the invisible hand of the market, the high prices seen on certain live stock (or dry goods) is indicative of a demand that isn't fully satisfied. One of two things happens, high price stimulates supply to a point where average price drops or customers refuse to pay the price and price drops. Might it be that current demand far exceeds the supply capability of this part of the aquarium industry? I never hear about how the tetras or gouramis or amazon sword plants are overpriced. I have kept an active aquarium or two going for the past 30 years and only looked to this part of the hobby within the past 3 years. If it wheren't for vendors (lfs primarily) I would never have been exposed to this hobby and therefore would never have become part of the demand.

If you don't like the price don't pay it. As an educated consumer/shopper, you'll find it doesn't take long to find out who provides a reasonably priced product and who doesn't. One other strength of like-minded hobbyists is to essentially act as a cooperative (a common free market response to high/overpricing). I have seen some colonies of corals that if split amongst a handful of people would dramatically shatter some of the high prices that gets asked for a piece on a 1/2"plug.

Just my rambling thoughts.
David

 

[tosiek]

Might it be that current demand far exceeds the supply capability of this part of the aquarium industry? I never hear about how the tetras or gouramis or amazon sword plants are overpriced.

That depends, demand as in everyone wants one for their tank to personally have? Its a coral and it grows, and your gonna get a piece of it for pennies a few months down the line anyways at one of our swaps from somoene that cares about the coral and who they are giving it to.

Demand as in everyone thinks they can grow it out in 3 months and can resell overpriced frags 1/100th the size? yes. Because thats the only thing driving these crazy prices. There is no way we have enough demand and that little supply to justify the 150$ a head or 300$ 1/4" frags ive seen. Coral grows.

Real world buisness supply/demand as a driving force of prices does not apply here in the coral trade. At all anymore, not the way it used to be. The only reason your seeing this now is because some people decided on selling coral named LE or Tyree at crazy prices because they were in fact rare back in the day and had eye popping colors that were rare in what was around. The fever spreads quick and now we have wholesalers and coral farms controlling prices by limiting whats coming in, keeping supply low by not flooding the market with them. And that is completely fueled by the people paying the crazy prices to chop up and grow those frags to be sold at the original overpriced price. Those prices drop very quickly, like 3-6 months because coral distribution spreads like the fibonacci between people growing and giving away or selling for 5-20$'s a large frag.

On another note, I don't agree with the overpricing, but trying to bargain against an already low price is something i don't agree with either, or expecting all coral not coming from a store be free =0) There is a line on how much things "should" be going for depending on where its coming from. Its your money spent on electric and stuff, mounting, bagging, water if your trying to clean up your tank around swap time for more frags or need to trim down overgrowth. 20-40$ for the rarer pieces that are truly rare im ok with, the 150-300$ 1/4" frags not so much.

I think it would be really interesting to see how many people have long term tanks that should be half grown out that are still just a tank littered with baby multiples of the same frags getting ready for the next swap =0)

 

[Chraddam]

Real world buisness supply/demand as a driving force of prices does not apply here in the coral trade. At all anymore, not the way it used to be. The only reason your seeing this now is because some people decided on selling coral named LE or Tyree at crazy prices because they were in fact rare back in the day and had eye popping colors that were rare in what was around. The fever spreads quick and now we have wholesalers and coral farms controlling prices by limiting whats coming in, keeping supply low by not flooding the market with them. And that is completely fueled by the people paying the crazy prices

This is EXACTLY what happened to comic book collecting in the early 1990's...and a few years later, people were sitting with comic books that were worth pennies on the dollar because the flame burned out.

It seems that the cycle in this hobby is much shorter. Fortunately, I have met vendors and hobbyists that have things that are currently "hot" that don't really mind throwing in some stuff for $10 a frag...that's right, $10 for chalice frags that I have seen people selling for $100 per eye, or mouth, or whatever we call them these days.

I guess my point is that if you want a nice tank, buy and put whatever you want in it, but spend wisely...and, most importantly, be nice to people in the hobby.