Is it really fair to wholesale and retail livestock???

[spawner]

Mitch,

You know if you would like I could have that photoshopped to look like the real thing and we could make and sell T-shirts.

 

[clarionreef]

Maybe he went to visit the CIA sponsored MAC "TRAININGS" IN MINDINAO AND GOT ABDUCTED BY THE REBELS WHEN THE PROMISED HIGHER PRICES DIDN'T MATERIALIZE.
[ LIKE EVERYWHERE ELSE]

Martyrdom may do much for a cause ...more in fact then Just plain hard work.
JB...The Chico Mendez of the coral reef reform industry!
Steve

 

[coralfarmin]

ok...so what about all the coral you'll be keeping in the greenhouse treeman???
nothin like a hobbyists set up
For the new system I am setting up currently...A greenhouse addition...the 1000 watters will only be used 5 hrs to supplement sun when needed over 300 gal rubbermaids
I just dont see why you guys dont understand that a 20k 1000 watter sailing across a tank/vat is not even as intense IMO as a few 400 watt saki's..and is actualy less juice imo..comparing core and coil type
I actualy have one of the first 1000 watt osram hqi ballasts brought into america for radiums ..long before they were commercialized..so my obsession with 1000 watt light systems is not spured by commercial coral production ..but by my preferance alone..I saw 400 watt hydro produce systems and 1000 watt hydro produce systems ...the 1000 watters were a no brainer imo...thats what started my desire for my first set up..
If I keep them under 400 watt 20ks at a point source how is this differant when someone wants to keep these same acros under a compact ..it dont matter what I kept it under it will loss color and growth imo????
you guys really should learn more about movers and 1000 watters before you decide whether or not they are in fact efficant or inefficant.
also a mover helps disapate heat IMO so I have never had a chiller
the 1000 watter easily spreads up to 6ft at the right height compared to a 400 at 3ft
I am not trying to convince you guys to do it
do what you feel is best

 

[coralfarmin]

Fast growth and unusual (or abnormal) colour are two different issues.

With all the talk in this and other threads about "cherries", it implied that you were after rare or unsual stuff. That's usually about colour. If you are growing out colonies for fragging, the shape of the piece is largely irrelevant, although size might be a factor, I suppose.

Personally I'm not a fan of forcing any living thing to behave or grow at a rate different from what is naturalor normal under normal environmental conditions for that particular specimen. Happens all the time though, corals, farm animals... calves for veal, geese for foie gras...and etc.

We've shifted the focus again apparently, from colour to growth rate...

I give up - you win. I'm going to bed.

Jenn

jenn
If a coral adapted in nature to do this(change color)
how is it unnatural for it to do this.
say a frag is broke from a bright colony that is in shallow water(even out of water at low tide) but the frag falls in partial shade..wont the frag be less intense in color and slower in growth when it sarts its growth back..imo ..yes

 

[JennM]

You missed my point, although it's been repeated a few times by myself and others.

If you are growing corals for "consumption" by hobbyists, IMO it's better business to acclimate (or adapt as you put it) them to conditions that will be somewhat similar to the environments in which they will end up.

Jenn

 

[coralfarmin]

jenn
I feel you missed mine
you should not make statments on the efficancy or lack of something you know nothin about imo...ie..the actual intesity compared to say 400 watters 6-8" above the water.... etc etc..how do you know my mover set up is not similar to what someone with a few 400's would have far as the coral are concerned?????
like I said all these new greenhouses popin up are NOTHIN like a hobbyists
are you aginst greenhouse growth as well?]
how is this even close to what most hobbyists have????
what about mariculter????nothin like a hobbyists tank

 

[coralfarmin]

adapt...in nature
like changing to survive in changing elements
I was talking about coral in nature not acclimation to captive conditions
also on another note
the world was not flat just because most people agree'd at one time that it was
just like most here at this point agree that 1000 watts are to much..dont make it so

 

[treeman]

The only difference between the GH and a reef keepers tank is the kelvin rating of the light. My lux readings are not much more than what most people have on their systems. What are the lux readings on the 1000 watters? Are you blasting them with twice, three times what a hobbiest is using? I would like to see the research done on these.

I am not trying to start a fight even though it seems like you want one. You think that just because we don't agree with you we are attacking you. I am not. I don't know anybody with even close to that much light on there system. If you can show me I would be more than happy to listen.

IMO is just that until you show us some info, until then I will stand by and wait.

[Qoute]
jenn
I feel you missed mine
you should not make statments on the efficancy or lack of something you know nothin about imo...ie..the actual intesity compared to say 400 watters 6-8" above the water.... etc etc..how do you know my mover set up is not similar to what someone with a few 400's would have far as the coral are concerned?????
[QOUTE]

How do you know she knows nothing about this? How long has she been in the business? Show us the actual intensity numbers. I am very interested in this.

 

[coralfarmin]

she said she did'nt..she did not even know what a mover was..she stated she was 4 years in here lfs
I dont have a lux meter..I will get one for my greenhouse when its finished
I dont want to fight..heck I always looked up to you ..just dont agree here..lets just agree to disagree
I think Kalk took readings though on his I think...
What do most people have,what are their lux readings
400 watt 20k
400watt 65k supplemented
400 watt 10k supplemented
250 watt 20k
250 watt 65ksup
250 watt 10k sup
175 wat 20k
175 watt 10k sup
175 watt 65k sup
VHO
Compact
N.O.
what if the farmer used 400 watt saki's then the enduser had vho..imo same effect that you guys are trying to portray here
you are not realizing that when a mover moves a light 4 ft every several minutes its not what you are thinking about them being blasted direct all day..if anything the 20k dont put out enough light for the very ends of the tank..this is where some softies are kept
there is a point when expecialy sofies have had enough light under any light to meet there daily requirments and they retract..I dont think acros can be over blasted without actual bleaching
people buy more coral direct from the ocean wild(near the oceans surface) than captive raised every day that never has a chance to truly acclimate
how is this differant than the assumption that we are over blasting them..

I do have a question though for you
after your greenhouse has been operating awhile and you have 2nd 3rd and 4th generation mostly brown corals ...how will you market these in your area where wild colorful livestock is abundent
or do you plan to supplement with blues as well later thus increasing the lux

 

[treeman]

Ah, but there not mostly brown!

 

[coralfarmin]

how long have you had them?ie what generation
why are macs mostly brown
I have put some of my pink xenia in a sunlit tank and they were imediatly much less desirable in colour
I hope that I can maintain color without colouring under 20ks..heck that would save a ton

 

[treeman]

The problem with the GH is that we don't see them the same. I guess because of the intensity and/or the kelvin rating (color). I have some brown sps under 6000k (the sun) but when they are put in tanks they are not. Same coral, I put one in my tank with 175w MH 20k, it was tan with silver polyps. I sent one to a good friend, I don't know her set up but the coral is orange body with blue/green polyps. I think the colors are there but we just can't see them.

 

[dizzy]

I think the colors are there but we just can't see them.

It's nothing a little windowpane couldn't take care of.

 

[JeremyR]

You guys sure got off topic on this one

 

[mkirda]

The problem with the GH is that we don't see them the same. I guess because of the intensity and/or the kelvin rating (color). I have some brown sps under 6000k (the sun) but when they are put in tanks they are not. Same coral, I put one in my tank with 175w MH 20k, it was tan with silver polyps. I sent one to a good friend, I don't know her set up but the coral is orange body with blue/green polyps. I think the colors are there but we just can't see them.

It isn't all about intensity. Take PAR levels measured at that bottom of some of Harbor Aquatics tanks and compare them to levels at the bottom of aquarist tanks. Roughly 4 times as bright.

That didn't translate to really brightly colored corals though. Most were brown and dull. Even the clams were the same way. Take the same coral, put it in your tank and a few months later it would be nice and brightly colored, even with the lower light levels.

Spectral quality is important. So is intensity. Assuming reasonable spectral quality, intensity seems more important *in tanks* for coloration.
Mediocre spectral quality can be increased in intensity and you will still not get great coloration.

I think in Harbor's case, it was at least partially due to the type of glass used. I think it cut down a lot on the blue part of the spectrum.
No way for me to measure that though...

I really need to get my butt in gear and finish that light article...

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[JT]

I think in Harbor's case, it was at least partially due to the type of glass used. I think it cut down a lot on the blue part of the spectrum.

I agree Mike, this is precisely why I was so gung-ho about moving the SPS out of the GH side and over to the garage side where I could control the lighting better.

- JT

 

[dizzy]

So then would it be better to use polycarbonate panels instead of real glass if you were planning a new gh? I seen this three layer polycarbonate that is fairly inexpensive.
Mitch

 

[coralfarmin]

dizzy
I'd like to learn more about the effect of UV-B
on coral
I know about UV-A but no one really has mentioned much about uv-b that I have read other than it will give you a sun burn & cancer
most polycarbonates block out 100% uv-b
I want to use a insulated poly that blocks 100%..but not sure if this would be bad or not
I know the water will filter this out some but how much at the higher levels of the reefs
I think 1000 watt mh's do emit more uv-b
i know that de fixtures have blocking lenses because of the detrimental effects ...but is there a slight bit that could be useful non the less
do these lenses block 100%

 

[PeterIMA]

Reply to Coralfarmin,

As someone concerned about coral reef conservation, I don't believe that corals should be cultured in the USA. They should be fragged and grown out in the countries of origin. Growing them in the USA is tantamount to biopiracy. I will be happy to send my TURFs paper to anyone in the trade who is interested (send me a PM).

Furthermore, I think the discussion has deteriorated into a lighting intensity debate. Lighting is not a trade issue, this could be dealt with elsewhere on Reefs.org (not in this forum Industry Behind the Hobby).

Peter Rubec

 

[coralfarmin]

please pm me the info
yes it has become a lighting discussion :lol:
but much more interesting imo
peter are you saying hobbyists should not frag
or just on a commercial level IUO