MAC Certified Cultured Live Rock

[JennM]

Naesco wrote:

In the past, I seriously considered getting into the industry but the heart could not overcome the ultimate business decision that must prevail. I could not get involved in this industry because I came to the conclusion that it was a sunset industry. Sorry. I may however assist those who deal in net caught fish to find markets for their product in Canada.

Well thankfully, he finally answered the question. However, I have to ask - you've seen those of us who are actually *in* the industry, point out all the reasons why those who are NOT within the industry, have failed at changing it... so what makes you think you're any different? MAC has/had a ton of "suits" and a crapton of money and they haven't been effective, so what leads you to believe that your so-called reeform movement will be any different? It's clear that many industry-types here don't take you seriously - so how do you expect to accomplish anything if nobody takes you seriously. I mean no disrespect - just calling it as I see it - and honestly, I don't hold too much stock in anything you say.

I guess it would be kind of like *me* telling *you* how to do a real estate closing in BC, eh? I'm not an attorney and I don't play one on TV, so I would not expect anyone to take me seriously - although I do watch a lot of legal-type TV shows and CourtTV and such... see what I mean? Legal issues interest me, could even call it a 'hobby' but that doesn't even come close to qualifying me to give legal advice. Likewise, being a hobbyist doesn't qualify one to know automatically all about industry issues in the Marine Ornamentals trade. Ask some of the many hobbyists who were great at the hobby, but not so great at business, tried to turn their hobby into a livelihood and failed... there's plenty of those around.

Naesco wrote:

When it was obvious to me that industry embraced the use of cyanide in order to have a source of cheap fish irrespective of the catastrophic consequences to the reef and the critters that live therein.

How do you figure the trade "embraces" cyanide? Nobody who's aware of the problem, encourages or 'embraces' it... and many of us go out of our way to avoid it. I'd also venture to guess that many industry types are simply ignorant of the problem, because *other* industry types tell them it's not an issue anymore.

Even Kalkbreath, who does not sell PI fish, seems to feel that the impact of cyanide is minimal - look at his numbers in the closed thread, and I've seen him in other threads over the years, downplay the alleged numbers of cyanide caught fish available in the trade today. I wouldn't call that 'embracing'... since despite his take on the actual numbers, he's still not taking selling PI fish, for whatever reasons.

Most LFS don't deal directly with exporters in other countries - we buy from wholesalers on this side of the pond. No wholesaler admits to selling juiced fish - so how is a retailer to know for sure? Unfortunately a lot is trial and error and even then there's nothing to prove or disprove cyanide use... heck it's even illegal in the countries that do it - so how is one to know?

Wayne, I know you're heart is in the right place, but if you want to be taken seriously by the people in the trade, you need to be a part of the trade yourself - until then, you're just another 'suit' that most of us won't really take seriously - like I said it's no disrespect - it's just the way it is.

As an aside, I don't think Wayne's being annoying to us is a 'bannable' offence... like it was suggested, just ignore if his posts bug you. I ignore a lot of his rantings, but once in a while I feel a need to respond, such as I did here. Wayne, as a *hobbyist* has ever reasonable right to want to inform himself as to the goings-on in the trade, however IMO he's got no right to tell us how it should be run. Still he's entitled to his opinion, and while I'm not defending him, per se, he's got just as much business being on this forum as anyone. Personally however, I just wish he didn't presume to know more than he does - and that's *my* opinion.

Jenn

 

[naesco]

Jenn, thank you for your kind words.

I have suffered no greater defeat than being unable to convince industry that it was in their interest to deal with the cyanide problem that they are a part of before the Government does and takes steps affecting the enjoyment of my hobby. Nero playing his fiddle as Rome burns comes to mind.

Its not good enough for an LFS in industry to say 'it is not my problem it is the wholesalers who told me the fish were net caught."

It is not good enough for a wholesaler in industry to say 'it is not my problem it is the importers who told me the fish were net caught.'

In other words, you embrace cyanide when you do nothing. Cyanide is not one of those grey iffy matters. It is a black mark on industry. It is a black mark on our hobby. The use of cyanide must stop.

Through industry's failure to act, the Government is now involved through the Reef Task Force. I am not yet familiar with the process. When the summer is over I will get in touch with their Counsel and find out. I attend the hearings either as a spectator or a participant depending on the process.

I fully expect that at a minimum their will be an embargo of the import of Philippine and Indonesian fish until such time as a CDT is formally in place and Counsel have put in place the process to prosecute those in industry who know or ought to have known that the fish in their possession were caught with cyanide. The legislation is there already: the Lacey Act.

There is a serious possibility that the embargo will be even wider: Viet Nam and many of the islands of the Pacific and Indian Ocean.

The Government may also want a certification process in place before the embargo is lifted

One thing is very clear to me. The Government will not allow the status quo. The Government will not allow the continued destruction of the reefs whilst all of the above is being worked on. Industry has had more than enough time to remedy the problem but has chose to ignore it.

Wayne Ryan,

 

[Anonymous]

Jenn, thank you for your kind words.

I have suffered no greater defeat than being unable to convince industry that it was in their interest to deal with the cyanide problem that they are a part of before the Government does and takes steps affecting the enjoyment of my hobby. Nero playing his fiddle as Rome burns comes to mind.

Its not good enough for an LFS in industry to say 'it is not my problem it is the wholesalers who told me the fish were net caught."

It is not good enough for a wholesaler in industry to say 'it is not my problem it is the importers who told me the fish were net caught.'

In other words, you embrace cyanide when you do nothing. Cyanide is not one of those grey iffy matters. It is a black mark on industry. It is a black mark on our hobby. The use of cyanide must stop.

Through industry's failure to act, the Government is now involved through the Reef Task Force. I am not yet familiar with the process. When the summer is over I will get in touch with their Counsel and find out. I attend the hearings either as a spectator or a participant depending on the process.

I fully expect that at a minimum their will be an embargo of the import of Philippine and Indonesian fish until such time as a CDT is formally in place and Counsel have put in place the process to prosecute those in industry who know or ought to have known that the fish in their possession were caught with cyanide. The legislation is there already: the Lacey Act.

There is a serious possibility that the embargo will be even wider: Viet Nam and many of the islands of the Pacific and Indian Ocean.

The Government may also want a certification process in place before the embargo is lifted

One thing is very clear to me. The Government will not allow the status quo. The Government will not allow the continued destruction of the reefs whilst all of the above is being worked on. Industry has had more than enough time to remedy the problem but has chose to ignore it.

Wayne Ryan,

:lol: :lol: :lol:


Oh, you slay me...

 

[JennM]

Wayne, whose "government" do you refer to? It'll be a cold day in Hades when someone such as yourself can convince the US government to shut down trade in something that you don't have the foggiest idea about.

In Canada it may be the way of life to let the "government" take care of you from cradle to grave... but here in America we kind of like the "government" to "govern" and stay out of our business.

Boy did I open a can of worms when I made that statement to my ex-father in law several years ago (He's Canadian and been living on government funded worker's comp and Canada pension for the last 20 years.)

I've said it before, and I'll say it again - this seems to be the fundamental difference between Canada and the US... that whole socialist attitude that the government has to have its thumb stuck up everybody's assets.

If you can convince the suits in Ottawa to place an embargo on anything and everything, it will prompt me to tear up my Canadian passport once and for all. You know SO little about the trade... no wait, let me rephrase that... You know just enough about the trade to be dangerous. And by that statement I don't mean you're any danger to the cyanide cartel, you're a danger to the honest business people and fisher folk that are doing things the right way. You've painted every part of the industry with the same brush. Problem is, you don't know the clean dealers from the dirty ones, so you're just going to try to put the kibosh on any trade from certain regions, because that's where you've HEARD that the problems are.

Have you been to PI? Have you been to Indo, Viet Nam, or any of the countries you propose to ban importation from?

I haven't been any of those places - but then I'm not the one threatening to close down an industry I know precious little about.

You're no threat to the industry, Wayne. But you are dangerous.

Jenn

 

[mark@mac]

IMHO,

If there were an "embargo" placed upon source countries like PI, Indo, etc... it would increase and hasten the amount of damage to the reefs.....

Mark

 

[JennM]

Good point, Mark... and it would put undue stress on other regions where collecting is done.

Jenn

 

[naesco]

Yes, I have been to the Philippines. I choose a secluded island off the coast of Palawan. Kubo sa dagat. I geared up and jumped into the ocean expecting a glorious dive. I had spent a lot of money and it took a long time to get there. Vancouver to Taiwan, Taiwan to Manila. Manila to some small airport in Palawan and by jitney overland to a small seaside village and than an hour to the small island by boat.
I was stunned, shocked at what I saw. The area was almost devoid of life, few fish, few coral. I went to the top and removed my mask and looked at the fishers who took me there. They were embarrassed. I couldn't believe it the desolation, the destruction.

Over dinner I had discussions with the locals. They told me that several boats from further islands came there. They used cyanide to kill the fish.
The cyanide also destroyed the reef and algae took over. There are a few fish but they seemed lost.

They told me that at a nearby island the villages had tried to restore the reefs (I guess with frags). When the fish came back so did the cyanide fisherman. The locals had to shoot at them to make them go away.

Steve has probably heard this story a hundred times as has anyone who as been there.

We have to stop those criminals using cyanide on the reefs. They deprive the honest fishers of an honest living and food for their family.

We have to stop those criminals using cyanide on the reefs of those who have made an effort to repair them

We have to stop the cyanide cartel on both sides of the ocean.

And, we will. I promise. I swear.

Yes, Jenn I agree with you. I am no threat to the industry.

Wayne

 

[mark@mac]

So, do tell how an embargo on PI would stop the "outsiders" from raping the locals' resources???? All the embargo will do is hurt the honest fishers!!!!!!!!! It won't stop the outlaws from killing the reefs there... Only the LGU's can do that through enforcement. which will take educating them on how and why they should do that....

When were you there? If I'm not mistaken, that area was/is fished mostly for LRFF!

Mark

 

[mark@mac]

ps,

there are many, many beautiful dive sites all over the Philippines! especially in Palawan. Next trip, do a little more research to find out where to go if you want to see beautiful reefs...

8)

 

[naesco]

ps,

there are many, many beautiful dive sites all over the Philippines! especially in Palawan. Next trip, do a little more research to find out where to go if you want to see beautiful reefs...

8)

I visited PI about 5 years ago.
I thought I did a lot of research. I guess I didn't. I chose the place I visited because it was furthest from civilization and thus I figured would be the most natural. I met fisherman with the most primitive tools and homesites.

The people of the Philippines were the most friendliest people I have met in the world.
It is a tragedy what industry has done to their reefs.

I posted earlier that I fully expect the US government will exempt net caught fish provided the certifier (importer) certifies same. The responsible of ascertaining whether the fish were net caught will be on the certifier. If he has not shown reasonable due diligence in ascertaining the source of the fish he will meet the wrath of the law.

Mark when the axe falls you will be surprised how industry will fall in line.
They have invested hundreds of thousands of dollars in their operations.
The exporters will be climbing over each other to find net caught fishers and pay a fair price for their fish.
The wholesalers will abandon their cyanide partners and search out net caught exporters.
LFS will be burning their fingers dialing, trying to find net caught sources of fish, sources that they are ignoring today.

The greatest winner of an embargo on cyanide caught fish will be the fishers themselves.
They will get higher prices.
They will have healthier reefs which will attact more fish and other critters.
The beautiful thing is they get these reward starting the day after the axe falls.

Young people like yourself will have bountiful opportunities as stewards of the reefs working together with those who livelihood has been enriched by the total ban on cyanide.

As you can see this is a win-win situation. I believe the US Reef Task Force understands that is the case are are prepared to lower the boom.

Wayne



I

 

[Anonymous]

Wayne,

How do you know what you saw was due to the MO industry?

 

[Anonymous]

ps,

there are many, many beautiful dive sites all over the Philippines! especially in Palawan. Next trip, do a little more research to find out where to go if you want to see beautiful reefs...

8)

I visited PI about 5 years ago.
I thought I did a lot of research. I guess I didn't. I chose the place I visited because it was furthest from civilization and thus I figured would be the most natural. I met fisherman with the most primitive tools and homesites.

The people of the Philippines were the most friendliest people I have met in the world.
It is a tragedy what industry has done to their reefs.

I posted earlier that I fully expect the US government will exempt net caught fish provided the certifier (importer) certifies same. The responsible of ascertaining whether the fish were net caught will be on the certifier. If he has not shown reasonable due diligence in ascertaining the source of the fish he will meet the wrath of the law.

Mark when the axe falls you will be surprised how industry will fall in line.
They have invested hundreds of thousands of dollars in their operations.
The exporters will be climbing over each other to find net caught fishers and pay a fair price for their fish.
The wholesalers will abandon their cyanide partners and search out net caught exporters.
LFS will be burning their fingers dialing, trying to find net caught sources of fish, sources that they are ignoring today.

The greatest winner of an embargo on cyanide caught fish will be the fishers themselves.
They will get higher prices.
They will have healthier reefs which will attact more fish and other critters.
The beautiful thing is they get these reward starting the day after the axe falls.

Young people like yourself will have bountiful opportunities as stewards of the reefs working together with those who livelihood has been enriched by the total ban on cyanide.

As you can see this is a win-win situation. I believe the US Reef Task Force understands that is the case are are prepared to lower the boom.

Wayne



I

Some day.......











we'll end our need for petro chemicals and there will be world peace.

That's as likely to happen in the next decade, as Waynes scenerio IMO>

 

[dizzy]

I'm with Gresham on this one. There is a better chance for Lennon's dream coming true than Wayne's.

Imagine by John Lennon


Imagine there's no heaven,
It's easy if you try,
No hell below us,
Above us only sky,
Imagine all the people
living for today...

Imagine there's no countries,
It isnt hard to do,
Nothing to kill or die for,
No religion too,
Imagine all the people
living life in peace...

Imagine no possesions,
I wonder if you can,
No need for greed or hunger,
A brotherhood of man,
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

You may say Im a dreamer,
but Im not the only one,
I hope some day you'll join us,
And the world will live as one.


I guess Wayne joined them.

 

[clarionreef]

Public complicity and irresponsibility among all the rest of the players;

Actually if the huge fish buying public aquarium sector would join us....the cause would be futhered.
However, public aquariums are some of the worlds biggest supporters of the status quo ...AND EDUCATORS ON CONSERVATION.
Why should they get a free pass for all their mega subsidy of the cyanide trade?
Come on Wayne, quit preaching to the choir and get to work!
Steve

 

[mark@mac]

Wayne,

Do you speak Tagalog or Visayan? How did you communicate with people in such a remote village? I'm sure they speak some english, but you must have had a translator and/or guide? IME, small village fishers are not usually the ones responsible for any major reef destruction; it's outsiders.....
What were the "intruders" fishing for MAF or LRFF? Do you know?

Also, it's not so much that "the industry" needs to "fall in line", it's more the hobbyists that need to support a sustainable MAF trade. Granted there are questionable trade members from collector to retailer, but most of the industry members I know and associate with are very responsible.; and it's a growing trend.....

I feel that it's the number of responsible hobbyists that are the significant minority in this equation...

Mark

 

[Anonymous]

Also, it's not so much that "the industry" needs to "fall in line", it's more the hobbyists that need to support a sustainable MAF trade. Granted there are questionable trade members from collector to retailer, but most of the industry members I know and associate with are very responsible.; and it's a growing trend.....

I feel that it's the number of responsible hobbyists that are the significant minority in this equation...

Mark

I disagree.

Most hobbyists don't care, or don't know to care. I think hoping they will figure it out and then do something about it just isn't realistic.

Some hobbyists want to support a sustainable MAF trade, but currently there is no way to tell who to support. It is too easy for anyone to say they run a sustainable business, but it is another thing for this to actually be the case. I think that if there were a way for hobbyists who do care to trust anyone who says they are sustainable, they would support it. However, since they have been told this many times and it often simply isn't true makes that trust difficult to give.

This isn't just the case with hobbyists. As has been said in this forum many times, almost every wholesaler will tell you they don't sell 'unsustainable' animals. So, how to choose?

 

[mark@mac]

Thales,

Point well taken. What I meant however, was that all too often, even when given a choice, the hobbyist will buy the cheaper fish...... When I was selling MAC certified fish, I really had to "sell" the hobbyist on the reasons to purchase that fish over the "cheaper ones" across town... I was pretty successful at that, however, many still bought the "cheaper fish"....

Another point you're right on with is: "There is currently no way to tell who to support."

Mark

 

[mark@mac]

I need to "rephrase" part of my earlier statement:

"When I was selling MAC certified fish" should have been stated as:

"Whenever I had MAC certified fish to sell"

Mark

 

[Caterham]

Naesco,

Thanks so much for answering a few questions. It means a lot to the individuals within this community who are involved in the trade of marine ornamentals.

Seeing as how you have absolutely zero experience past or present in the trade of marine ornamentals I can only wonder how seriously many of the regulars on this forum will take your comments.

Please also consider that many of the posters on this board are actually involved in the trade of marine ornamentals on a regular basis. As such, it is quite possible that they might be offended by comments from someone outside the industry calling for change within an industry which they have no past or present involvement.

I am an importer and wholesaler of marine ornamentals. I work 80 hours on slow weeks and 90 if we are really busy. I have the knowledge and experience to discuss the trade of marine ornamentals first hand. When I talk about the trade of marine ornamentals it comes from experience, not hearsay. It can be difficult at times to listen to the ranting of someone outside the industry while I sit here with chapped, calloused hands and a phone in each ear.

You have every right to post within this forum and express your own personal opinions. Give some thought, however, to how well you actually understand the trade of marine ornamentals. Having read some of your prior posts it is clear to me that you have very little knowledge of our industry. An industry in which you have no involvement, past or present.

Warmest regards 8)

 

[JennM]

Well said, Caterham

Jenn