MAC Certified Cultured Live Rock

[PeterIMA]

If the Case draft legislation becomes law, fish will need to be certified to enter the US. The key question is what will the US government do if the MAC certifies cyanide-caught fish? Hopefully, there will be a CDT put in place before then to keep the certification process honest.

Peter

 

[midgetwaiter]

The enforcement of the Lacey Act which makes it a crime for those who know or ought to have known that the fish they purchased were caught with cyanide is a legal question.
There are wholesalers of fish from the Philippines and Indonesia who would certify them as net caught. I do not see any possibility of a LFS owner been charged with offences under the Lacey Act under the circumstances you mentioned.

<snip>

A supplier today who claims their fish are net caught without any due diligence on their source and evidence to back up that claim is in deep doo doo.

This is wonderful, lets think this through. I import a bunch of stuff from the PI and even though the supplier tells me they are net caught I have to check it out. Luckily I have this new cyanide detection test that will allow me to do my "due diligence". I just scoop up some bag water, add three drops and hold it against the colour chart. Cyanide detected!

Yeah right. :roll:

Best case I would have to do a gill scrape but cyanide accumulates most in the brain and liver so chances are you would have to use those for the testing. I can just see myself on a busy Saturday afternoon taking the liver out of a $2 damsel and running it through the mass spectrometer I keep in the back next to the RO tub. No problem.

If you want to change things you have to change them at the collection points, jumping on importers and wholesalers who have no ability to to really determine weather a fish is juiced will do nothing but screw everybody over. I'm not denying the impact cyanide use has but frankly if you want to have real impact on the loss rate in the MO trade I think that establishing a set of standards and practices for shops would be far more effective. Something substantive would be nice not just a MAC Aprroved (tm) binder full of half a**ed checklists. As a matter of fact the best thing you could probably do to really improve my loss rate would be to fine the stupid airlines every time they leave my shipment sitting on a parking ramp in Memphis for 12 hours. I love unpacking half dead fish at 4am, it's been a long night.

 

[clarionreef]

The enforcement of the Lacey Act which makes it a crime for those who know or ought to have known that the fish they purchased were caught with cyanide is a legal question.

A supplier today who claims their fish are net caught without any due diligence on their source and evidence to back up that claim is in deep doo doo.... Really.
Canadians on this forum.
Does Canadian law base itself on nebulous "oughts and shoulds" as ours doesn't?
How bout the due dilligence in claiming netcaught fish?

The thought process revealed in the constant segue to an imaginary law enforcement threat suggests a feeling of masculine inferiority and impotence.
The answers that entail working with people, training and social influence are put aside as they are not the skills of the outcast, solitary male.
The need to punish people we cannot control suggests an advanced case of weanie-ism that can only manifest itself..alone in a dark room while poking away at a keyboard.
Wayne...training is the answer. Its nice, its constructive and its very social.
CDT and threatening folks is a punishment.
Whats with this dominatrix impulse ? Is it not just revenge and punishment for others who don't accept us?
Steve

 

[clarionreef]

Midget waiter;
You nailed it. ..and remind us that there are plenty of rational Canadians.

"If you want to change things you have to change them at the collection points, jumping on importers and wholesalers who have no ability to to really determine weather a fish is juiced will do nothing but screw everybody over">
Steve

 

[Rascal]

It would be extremely ineffecient to perform cyanide testing at the wholesale or the retail level. It would require replication of equipment, manpower, as well as inforcement bodies to accomplishment the job. Imagine the spokes of a bicycle...the hub is the exporters in the Phillipines, and the ends are the wholesalers and retailers. It's a lot easier to focus ones efforts at the center than it would be to expect to have to fund, staff, instruct, govern, monitor, and potentially reprimand everyone away from the source of the problem.

Steve - Do you know what the percentage of total fish collected in PI is destined for export to the US? Where do the rest of the fish go? The reason I ask is if conservation of the reefs in PI are of prime concern, then the US is only a part of the equation. Reform will not be accomplished without looking at the entire equation.

 

[naesco]

How did that USL you were so crazy for work out?

The subject of the Unsuitable Species List (USL), those fish and coral that have no reasonable chance of sucess in hobbyists tank, was debated for months in this forum. Mary Middlebrook was the moderator at that time.
A bare list was agreed to and presented to a meeting of industry in LA.
The industry types did not accept voluntary restrictions.
Wayne

 

[naesco]

It would be extremely ineffecient to perform cyanide testing at the wholesale or the retail level. It would require replication of equipment, manpower, as well as inforcement bodies to accomplishment the job. Imagine the spokes of a bicycle...the hub is the exporters in the Phillipines, and the ends are the wholesalers and retailers. It's a lot easier to focus ones efforts at the center than it would be to expect to have to fund, staff, instruct, govern, monitor, and potentially reprimand everyone away from the source of the problem.

Steve - Do you know what the percentage of total fish collected in PI is destined for export to the US? Where do the rest of the fish go? The reason I ask is if conservation of the reefs in PI are of prime concern, then the US is only a part of the equation. Reform will not be accomplished without looking at the entire equation.

The US Coral Reef Task Force in their minutes of their meeting in May 06 points to the USA as being the major problem that needs urgent attention.

Wayne Ryan

 

[Anonymous]

How did that USL you were so crazy for work out?

The subject of the Unsuitable Species List (USL), those fish and coral that have no reasonable chance of sucess in hobbyists tank, was debated for months in this forum. Mary Middlebrook was the moderator at that time.
A bare list was agreed to and presented to a meeting of industry in LA.
The industry types did not accept voluntary restrictions.
Wayne

Thanks for reshashing the post, but, that WASN"t his question. WHat have you done with that project since then, as per you involvement in it? You were extremelly pasionate about it back then, even to the point of saying the hobby was going to be shut down over it. Gee, sound familiar. You've been saying the MOI industry is going to get shut down now, well, since you started posting Mary gave her reason for giving up on that list, ie. YOU.

 

[naesco]

The enforcement of the Lacey Act which makes it a crime for those who know or ought to have known that the fish they purchased were caught with cyanide is a legal question.

A supplier today who claims their fish are net caught without any due diligence on their source and evidence to back up that claim is in deep doo doo.... Really.
Canadians on this forum.
Does Canadian law base itself on nebulous "oughts and shoulds" as ours doesn't?
How bout the due dilligence in claiming netcaught fish?

The thought process revealed in the constant segue to an imaginary law enforcement threat suggests a feeling of masculine inferiority and impotence.
The answers that entail working with people, training and social influence are put aside as they are not the skills of the outcast, solitary male.
The need to punish people we cannot control suggests an advanced case of weanie-ism that can only manifest itself..alone in a dark room while poking away at a keyboard.
Wayne...training is the answer. Its nice, its constructive and its very social.
CDT and threatening folks is a punishment.
Whats with this dominatrix impulse ? Is it not just revenge and punishment for others who don't accept us?
Steve

Sorry Steve selling industry on training is to late. How many years have you been at it?
It is in the Government's hands now.
IMO training will be much in demand only once the cyanide fishery is shut down in the PI and the Philippines.
In the rush to get net caught fish in the market to meet demand, exporters and importers will be clamouring for trainers in PI and Indonesia.

 

[Anonymous]

It would be extremely ineffecient to perform cyanide testing at the wholesale or the retail level. It would require replication of equipment, manpower, as well as inforcement bodies to accomplishment the job. Imagine the spokes of a bicycle...the hub is the exporters in the Phillipines, and the ends are the wholesalers and retailers. It's a lot easier to focus ones efforts at the center than it would be to expect to have to fund, staff, instruct, govern, monitor, and potentially reprimand everyone away from the source of the problem.

Steve - Do you know what the percentage of total fish collected in PI is destined for export to the US? Where do the rest of the fish go? The reason I ask is if conservation of the reefs in PI are of prime concern, then the US is only a part of the equation. Reform will not be accomplished without looking at the entire equation.

The US Coral Reef Task Force in their minutes of their meeting in May 06 points to the USA as being the major problem that needs urgent attention.

Wayne Ryan

He was asking for DATA Wayne, not more of your dribble. Either asnwer a question thats asked, or go police tangs elsewhere, your wasting EVERYONES time.


Why can't you grasp the idea of answerring a question that is presented to you? You entire post history here is chaulked full of this BS behavour. Don't you undersand that kind of style gains nothing, and is a net negative to ANY converstation? Haven't you learned this since you've been on this planet?

 

[dizzy]

I found of picture of naesco. Or at least one of someone who speaks in the Wayne Ryan style.

 

[Anonymous]

Oh don't get me started on the path Mitch :lol: Steve and I logged most of the Baghdad Bob stuff. Now I gotta find the website dedicated to him again

 

[naesco]

The enforcement of the Lacey Act which makes it a crime for those who know or ought to have known that the fish they purchased were caught with cyanide is a legal question.

A supplier today who claims their fish are net caught without any due diligence on their source and evidence to back up that claim is in deep doo doo.... Really.
Canadians on this forum.
Does Canadian law base itself on nebulous "oughts and shoulds" as ours doesn't?
How bout the due dilligence in claiming netcaught fish?

The thought process revealed in the constant segue to an imaginary law enforcement threat suggests a feeling of masculine inferiority and impotence.
The answers that entail working with people, training and social influence are put aside as they are not the skills of the outcast, solitary male.
The need to punish people we cannot control suggests an advanced case of weanie-ism that can only manifest itself..alone in a dark room while poking away at a keyboard.
Wayne...training is the answer. Its nice, its constructive and its very social.
CDT and threatening folks is a punishment.
Whats with this dominatrix impulse ? Is it not just revenge and punishment for others who don't accept us?
Steve

Steve with the greatest respect you are wrong in your view that the notion of 'due diligence' and "ought to have known" are Canadian legal definitions.
We, Canadians and Americans are 'Children of a common mother' Great Britain, from which the cherished Common Law came from.

Let me draw an analogy.
You are seeking a quality gold timepiece and answer an add in the LA paper. You call the person who has a gold timepiece for sale. They tell you it is a Cartier timepiece and they want $500.00 for it. You visit the man who has the timepiece for sale and see that it is easily valued at $1,500.00. You offer him $400.00 and take the timepiece home.
The police subsequently attend your home, look at the timepiece and confirm that it was recently stolen from a watchmaker.
You tell the police the story of your purchase. You are victem and you are obviously not quilty of possession of stolen property.

On the other hand you are at a bar. An person approaches you and offers you that same Cartier gold timepiece for $75.00. You buy it from him for $50.00 and take it home. The police attend your home and you tell them this story. You will be charged with possession of stolen property because under the circumstances you ought to have known it was stolen.
The onus in court will be on you to satisfy the judge of your innocence. I this case you will be be convicted.
I am a Canadian lawyer who has done Federal prosecutions in the past. I am not a American attorney but I am certain that if you contacted one he/she would confirm the outcome.

Here is how I would envision the situation on cyanide caught fish might happen.

You are a wholesaler and you want to buy certain marine fish. You enquire where they they are caught. The exporter tells you the Philippines.
RED FLAG BECAUSE YOU KNOW THAT FISH FROM THE PHILIPPINES AND INDONESIA ARE COMMONLY CAUGHT BY CYANIDE
.
You ask him whether the fish are net caught and he tell you yes, You ask him his supplier and he tells you it is Net Caught Fish (PI) Inc., a known net caught fishery.
You purchase the fish from him and your bill of lading states origin, PI, certifed net caught from Net Caught Fish (PI) Inc.
This wholesaler has performed the necessary due dilegence to have him excape prosecution in the event a fish in his possesion was positively tested for cyanide.
The government will prohibit the import of fish from Net Caught FIsh (PI) Inc. and notify the PI authorities who will test fish at Net Caught's facility and if test show positive will prosecute New Caught under Philippine Law and close down his operations.

Same scenario but the wholesaler makes no equiries and a fish is positively tested for cyanide.
He will be charged and convicted under the Lacey Act and his US facilities closed down.

Again I would encourage you to read the May 2006 minutes of the US Coral Reef Task Force.
It should be apparent to everyone in industry that they mean business.
http://www.coralreef.gov/taskforce/pdf/15-1_Cyanide.pdf

 

[Anonymous]

thanks, naesco, for showing us that more things you're completely ignorant about are the lacey act, the uscrtf, what an 'act' acually is, whether or not it can/can't, will/won't be enforced, and what the uscrtf can actually do, or what it's mandate is



thank you thank you and THANK YOU :lol:














:roll:

 

[naesco]

thanks, naesco, for showing us that more things you're completely ignorant about are the lacey act, the uscrtf, what an 'act' acually is, whether or not it can/can't, will/won't be enforced, and what the uscrtf can actually do, or what it's mandate is



thank you thank you and THANK YOU :lol

:roll:

Read the minutes of the Meeting of the US Coral Task Force and the Lacey Act, Vitz.

 

[Anonymous]

er-

an act is not a law, and really has nothing to do with any type of actual enforcement-it may lead to laws and regulations further on down the line

(but don't hold your breath)

it is a 'wish list' type of thing

you can pass as many acts as you want-they are practically meaningless

HOW MANY PROSECUTIONS?CONVICTIONS HAVE YOU HEARD OF UNDER THE LACEY ACT ?????

thank you yet AGAIN for showing all that the only things you post about and claim to understand are the things you know NOTHING about

i wonder what posts you would make here on the bb if you only posted re: things you actually knew about ? :idea:



(i'd bet your entire post count would be 10< ) :lol:

 

[JennM]

On the other hand you are at a bar. An person approaches you and offers you that same Cartier gold timepiece for $75.00. You buy it from him for $50.00 and take it home. The police attend your home and you tell them this story. You will be charged with possession of stolen property because under the circumstances you ought to have known it was stolen.
The onus in court will be on you to satisfy the judge of your innocence. I this case you will be be convicted.

What ever happened to "Innocent until proven guilty"? The onus would be on the prosecution to PROVE beyond a reasonable doubt (no matter what side of the border you're on), that you knew you were buying a stolen timepiece. The purchaser could have thought it was a cheap knockoff... and while that might be in violation of trademark law, that's not the same as stolen property, and would be a different charge altogether.

As it is, Wayne, you're assuming everybody's guilty until proven innocent.

I'm not suggesting that there aren't guilty parties out there, who know full well, however unless you can come up with something concrete that would prove or disprove the use of cyanide, in this example, you can't just make a blanket statement that *everything* from PI or Indo is juiced.

Jenn

 

[naesco]

er-

an act is not a law, and really has nothing to do with any type of actual enforcement-it may lead to laws and regulations further on down the line

(but don't hold your breath)

it is a 'wish list' type of thing

you can pass as many acts as you want-they are practically meaningless

HOW MANY PROSECUTIONS?CONVICTIONS HAVE YOU HEARD OF UNDER THE LACEY ACT ?????

thank you yet AGAIN for showing all that the only things you post about and claim to understand are the things you know NOTHING about

i wonder what posts you would make here on the bb if you only posted re: things you actually knew about ? :idea:



(i'd bet your entire post count would be 10< ) :lol:

Sorry Vitz but the Lacey Act IS existing US Federal Law.
"The Lacey Act is LAW,
And this you must obey,
For if you are caught,
A fine you'll have to pay."

I don't know how many prosecutions there have been under that Statute but the Lacey Act is referred to in the US Coral Reef Task Force minutes which you have read as a means of enforcing US cyanide abusers.


Wayne

 

[Anonymous]

er-

an act is not a law, and really has nothing to do with any type of actual enforcement-it may lead to laws and regulations further on down the line

(but don't hold your breath)

it is a 'wish list' type of thing

you can pass as many acts as you want-they are practically meaningless

HOW MANY PROSECUTIONS?CONVICTIONS HAVE YOU HEARD OF UNDER THE LACEY ACT ?????

thank you yet AGAIN for showing all that the only things you post about and claim to understand are the things you know NOTHING about

i wonder what posts you would make here on the bb if you only posted re: things you actually knew about ? :idea:



(i'd bet your entire post count would be 10< ) :lol:

Sorry Vitz but the Lacey Act IS existing US Federal Law.
"The Lacey Act is LAW,
And this you must obey,
For if you are caught,
A fine you'll have to pay."

I don't know how many prosecutions there have been under that Statute but the Lacey Act is referred to in the US Coral Reef Task Force minutes which you have read as a means of enforcing US cyanide abusers.


Wayne

jeebus :!:

not only are you ignorant-you insist on remaining so, even after an explanation

an act is not a law

prosecution can only follow violation of a STATUTE-us code blah blah blah

once again- who was ever charged, prosecuted, or sentenced under the lacey ACT ?

when you read the uscrtf (which i know a tad bit more about than you, from my time with CORL) do you even understand what it is you're reading?

once again-my only conclusion is that you are trolling for responses just to 'participate' in this forum


factories aren't prosecuted under the clean air act, you silly ninny-they are prosecuted for violating STATUTES that are the result of LEGISLATION THAT AROSE FROM THE ACT-us code blah blah blah

show me legislation that is even pending from the lacey act

it's currently completely toothless, and will remain so for quite some time, as is the uscrtf, for the most part

(quite frankly, the uscrtf is an embarrassment for all who truly care about reef conservation-buncha whiny impotent stuffed shirts, so far, ime)


look-childhood asthma is now considered to be a childhood epidemic in the us (and most likely in every other industrialized nation) yet the us won't even ENFORCE legislation and LAWS that require factories to clean up their emissions, that have been on the books for years-not only that, the us gov't (another buncha whiny impotent stuffed shirts and whores, heh) has actually allowed the polluters to circumvent the existing legislation, while joe blow public cries about his kids breathing, and tries all sorts of pills and gimmicks for prolonging his life, while he breathes and drinks polluted air and water, the two MOST critical things that need to be clean, in order to promote longevity.

SO-you have not only the CLEAN AIR ACT, you also have emissions LAWS and regulations, and violators who've been given an out by the us gov't


you really think the congress gives a damn about some 'patch of coral half a world away' ? HELL NO, (and neither, imo, does the uscrtf-they care far more about their cushy namby pamby jobs, or we wouldn't even be having this discussion)


what on earth makes you think that any type of true conservation/ cleanup will ever arise out of legislation, until it's already passed the point of no return?

are you really that dumb and naive? or are you truly 14 yrs old ?

i can't believe any adult with half a brain would post the drivel that you post here


hows about this: ask anyone from the uscrtf to explain it to you via email, and copy and paste it here, re: how an ACT can be ENFORCED. (and who's been prosecuted under the lacey ACT, to date).


the uscrtf is NOT a law enforcement org-you dolt-it's a task force (read: 'think tank') :lol:

 

[clarionreef]

Wayne,
You are becoming the William Hung of the aquarium trade.
Steve
PS. American idol fans will get it.