Preservation Of Our Industry: What we need to do

[naesco]

Reefcheck/MAC/CCIF has shown us the progress that is being made in the Philippines. Their contributions to conservation are admirable.
....setting up sustainable areas
....weaning fishers off cyanide by training

But here are a few things that we can do which do not require an investment of money and therefore should be a first choice in conserving the limited marine resources left.

!. We can refuse to buy species unsuitable and define a list of them.
cleaner wrasse, moorish idol, dendro all which have specific unknown requirements. Cleaner wrasse should be left in the ocean doing the good job them do thus increasing healthy fish coming to our industry..
Lets do our part and start this list now.

2 We can refuse to buy large breeding species which are extremely difficult to get to acclimatize. By leaving fish such as all of the larger angels we assist the yield of small new ones which have a much much better chance of survival.

3. We can refuse to buyf those fish, inverts and coral which can be propagated. Why do we continue to import many large angels when larval raised angels are available. Why do we import many species of clowns when they are readily available?

In the above examples existing legislation can be used if all industry does not get together and come to an agreement.
For example there is legislation prohibiting small crab, lobsters and some food fish from being caught. Add maximum size limits on angels and similar species so there is a level playing field for everyone.

 

[Caterham]

How are you involved in the trade of marine ornamentals? How many animals do you tank on a weekly basis? What is the average DOA rate that you personally experience from your imports?

Many thanks in advance for your reply.

 

[Anonymous]

!. We can refuse entry of species unsuitable and define a list of them.

If this had been done 15-20 years ago, we probably wouldn't be where we are now with many things and that list would be quite large...

I think a better approach would be to work with the guys back over on the other side of the pond in their tallying game, but try to get a reasonable - aka: ballpark - "real-time" fix on the digits and have the existing CITES framework throttle in proportion.

After all, Mother likes balance and harmony. - Reaping/raping one and leaving another generally has given us suprising results somewhere along the line.. (Apparently FL gators are getting to be a bit like oil companies lately, taking arms and legs...)

All in all though, self-policing would be a wise move at this point in time its sounds like.

 

[Anonymous]

How are you involved in the trade of marine ornamentals? How many animals do you tank on a weekly basis? What is the average DOA rate that you personally experience from your imports?

Many thanks in advance for your reply.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


Your killing me here....

 

[sdcfish]

Naesco,

The industry is looking for management of the resource which will keep the industry sustainable.

A radical approach like yours is just not likely nor necessary.

I commend your interest and passion, but why not get more involved with the groups working on setting the fisheries management plan into place and do what you personally can do to make a difference.

By the way, it's not appropriate for you to take a thread, and make it your own with a different agenda. I would appreciate you changing the name of the thread if possible.

Best regards

Eric

 

[naesco]

Eric thanks for your post. I changed the name of the thread as you requested.

I fully support all the efforts made by the groups in the Philippines in taking steps to ensure a sustainable industry in the future.

Radical, not radical Eric, necessary! If we don't voluntarly come to some agreement, IMO, we are guaranteed that the Governments will make that decision for us.

Let's start with a unsuitable species list (USL) and see how far we get.

Let's add as the first, the blue ringed octopus! Do you all agree?

Please add a fish, invert or coral that you and your customers have found almost impossible to keep.

Thanks.

 

[Anonymous]

:roll:

Seriously.. - Just 15-20 years ago that list woulda been frickin huge. - Possibly to the point that you wouldn't even have this place to rant and rage on...

Heres an idea, why not encourage hobbyists to shop where the shop owners have half a conscience and actually feel out their customers to see if what that customer wants to buy is actually within the customers skill set??

Personal responsibility.. - What an amazing concept!

 

[sdcfish]

Blue ring.....Yes...I agree that they should not be imported other than by Public Aquariums or for research.

There are many other animals that only should be imported by Public Aquariums as well. Leafy and Weedy Seahorses, Sharks that grow over 6 feet long, Hawaiian cleaner wrasse (stretching a bit), and I am sure a few others.

I am sure these and other animals may not be certifiable by Mac standards and that is a good place to start. Remember, these animals already are not traded heavily in our industry.

It's basic economic's. Importers and retailers do not buy large quantities of animals that do not do well and where money is lost on a regular basis. So government regulations seem a bit unecessary when the industry is already regulating itself on basic economic principles.


Best regards

Eric

 

[Anonymous]

I don't know about the blue ring. Its not endangered, and I can find no record of it actually hurting anyone (and I have looked a lot) in captivity so stopping its collection/importation seems like shark attack syndrome rather than any realistic good.

 

[Fish_dave]

Back in 1987 I brought in several blue ring octopus for Alex Kerstich who was doing some research on them. I brought them in from as many different countries as I could. Maybe someone here remembers his articles in FAMA about them and the photo on the cover that he did. His opinion was that there are 5 different species ( or sub species I am not sure as my memory is foggy after that many years ) all with similar features. There was quite a bit of size difference from different locations with the largest ones coming from Australia. I have heard of problems (fatality) with the blue ring in Australia.

We get the odd blue ring octopus in the solomons and none of the locals is the least bit afraid of them. They pick them up without a thought. I have seen it enough that I am convinced that it is not a problem, I have let one crawl around on my hand I am so convinced that the small ones from the solomons are not a problem. In general the local people are pretty knowledgeable about what plants and animals can cause a problem. When I told them that I thought the blue rings could hurt them they said that I was crazy and they pick them up and handle them with no problem. I have never heard of a problem with one in the states that was imported.

I know that there are cases in Australia of extreme problems associated with a blue ring octopus. Maybe it is an allergic reaction (remember bees can kill the right person also ) but I just do not think that the little guys that I see sometimes imported in our trade are a problem. I have seen a lot more problems from zooanthid and palythoa toxin than any problem from an octopus.

I almost never bring in a blue ring octopus and am not suggesting that they should be widely available but to ban them for some urban legend does not make much sense to me. I am not a beliver in an unsuitable species list. If an animal is impossible to keep alive I think that it regulates itself, I for one do not want to bring in an animal that I know will die on me and cost me money. However on the other hand if someone does want to bring one in to try and work out why they die in captivity then I think they should be able to do so. You do not need to call me out on endangered species, that is a whole other discussion and I am not talking about any endangered species here.

Dave

 

[Anonymous]

There are, I believe 7 species of blue ring, and a few yet to be classified. I believe all of them are poisonous, but maybe not, however, they should all be treated as poisonous because telling the species apart by eye is not possible. There are documented deaths due to blue rings, just none of them in the hobby.

 

[dizzy]

The last human deaths I remember hearing about from blue ring were in Viet Nam and it was from eating them. Using that logic for a ban I guess the puffers and boxfish should be considered unsuitable too.
Mitch

 

[naesco]

The last human deaths I remember hearing about from blue ring were in Viet Nam and it was from eating them. Using that logic for a ban I guess the puffers and boxfish should be considered unsuitable too.
Mitch

Do you have any fish, coral or inverts that you would like to add to the USL, Mitch?

 

[naesco]

There are, I believe 7 species of blue ring, and a few yet to be classified. I believe all of them are poisonous, but maybe not, however, they should all be treated as poisonous because telling the species apart by eye is not possible. There are documented deaths due to blue rings, just none of them in the hobby.

Dave, I agree with RIghty. The risk is too great for industry fishers, workers and the public.
In Canada, if an LFS employee or customer was bitten and died or was seriously hospitalized these would be the consequences.

The LFS and wholesaler would be sued in civil court and would be responsible for damages as determined by the Court. In other words the only ones who should be selling blue ring are industry types that have no net worth.

Further, you would found guilty of criminal negligence which carries a maximum of 14 years. You would serve two.

In the US, IMO opinion the consequences would be even worse.

So why would someone oppose the restriction on the import of this species?

 

[Anonymous]

There are, I believe 7 species of blue ring, and a few yet to be classified. I believe all of them are poisonous, but maybe not, however, they should all be treated as poisonous because telling the species apart by eye is not possible. There are documented deaths due to blue rings, just none of them in the hobby.

Dave, I agree with RIghty. The risk is too great for industry fishers, workers and the public.

That is a very different conclusion from the one Righty reached - you don't actually agree with Righty, as Righty thinks the importation of blue rings is just fine.

 

[naesco]

I agree with your comments below

"I believe all of them are poisonous, but maybe not, however, they should all be treated as poisonous because telling the species apart by eye is not possible. There are documented deaths due to blue rings, just none of them in the hobby."

In light of the above why would you not agree to restrict their importation?

 

[Anonymous]

Because I think with reasonable precautions they and be caught and kept with safety - just like foxface and lionfish.

 

[dizzy]

Do you have any fish, coral or inverts that you would like to add to the USL, Mitch?

Honestly I don't. As long as it is determined to be sustainable I'm in favor of letting the locals use it to feed their family. I actually like the idea of a balanced harvest if at all possible. If Greg and the gang say it's good to go, then it's ok by me. And believe it or not I tend to agree with you that if anyone sold something that killed a family member they would be in deep trouble, so I don't think many stores are willing to take this risk anyway. It's a little like overserving someone at the bar. Do so at your own peril, and if you're going to dance be prepared to pay the piper.
Mitch

 

[Anonymous]

Absolutely Mitch.

 

[Anonymous]

So what about zoas then? -- I seem to recall a story either here or on RC about someone losing the family dog from it eating some zoas...



Norm (who is having fond memories of having moon jellyfish-fights (think, snowball fight but with moon jellies instead of snowballs) in the midnight Va. Beach storm surf and is wondering if naesco would ban all jelly imports despite some of the fairly recent advances that have been made....)