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naesco

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Here is my post that started this thread.

Posted: 19 May 2006 19:01 Post subject: Preservation Of Our Industry: What we need to do

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Reefcheck/MAC/CCIF has shown us the progress that is being made in the Philippines. Their contributions to conservation are admirable.
....setting up sustainable areas
....weaning fishers off cyanide by training

But here are a few things that we can do which do not require an investment of money and therefore should be a first choice in conserving the limited marine resources left.

!. We can refuse to buy species unsuitable and define a list of them.
cleaner wrasse, moorish idol, dendro all which have specific unknown requirements. Cleaner wrasse should be left in the ocean doing the good job them do thus increasing healthy fish coming to our industry..
Lets do our part and start this list now.

2 We can refuse to buy large breeding species which are extremely difficult to get to acclimatize. By leaving fish such as all of the larger angels we assist the yield of small new ones which have a much much better chance of survival.

3. We can refuse to buyf those fish, inverts and coral which can be propagated. Why do we continue to import many large angels when larval raised angels are available. Why do we import many species of clowns when they are readily available?

In the above examples existing legislation can be used if all industry does not get together and come to an agreement.
For example there is legislation prohibiting small crab, lobsters and some food fish from being caught. Add maximum size limits on angels and similar species so there is a level playing field for everyone

The resounding answer from industry can be summarized as follows.
1. It is the hobbyists responsibility not industry to educate themselves to stop the totally needless plunder of fish and coral that industry knows has no possiblity of success in all but an experts tank.

2. There is total silence on the part of industry to stop the import of large breeding species like mature angels that have been virtually wiped out even though by removing these breeders there is less supply of wild fish.
This silence is even more astounding when industry knows that these mature fish are very difficult to acclimate and get to eat even in LFS tanks let alone hobbyist tanks.

3. Even though there is an ample supply of larval raised fish, industry continues to ignore this supply in favour of cheap wild caught fish.
Our lowly freshwater colleagues have learned that this attitude is not sustainable decades ago.

I am called for industry to take immediate steps to implement the three suggestions put forward before it is faced with the government doing it for you.
 

naesco

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Righty":ru1w1mi3 said:
This kind of list has been tried many times in the past. What is the overall plan for this list were we all to work on it?

I would suggest a serious list be immediately adopted by the industry. We dont have to be democratic and certainly not dogmatic.
Exporters, importers, wholesalers, online stores, and LFS would not order those species unless for special order (experts, scientists, universities)
The USL species would not be kept in stock by any of them. They would disappear from availability lists.

In this way industry would be shown to be policing themselves and therefor, at least on the issue of USL, the government and government agencies like USCRFT would not interfere.

The benefit would be that the needless slaughter of hundreds of thousands of fish and coral that has no reasonale chance of success in hobbyist tanks would stop.

Righty, if you dont get involved and the government or agency does get involved, have you considered which species would likely appear near the top of their list?

Thank you
Wayne
 

Caterham

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Naesco,

Thanks for your reply. Please let me know if the information below is correct.

You are not involved in the trade of marine ornamentals at this time nor have you ever been involved in any capacity. The number of animals that you tank on a weekly basis is the same now as it has always been, absolutely zero. You have none of your own DOA figures, because there are no animals to track.

Is the above information correct? Many thanks in advance for your response.
 
A

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naesco":244cnh32 said:
Righty":244cnh32 said:
This kind of list has been tried many times in the past. What is the overall plan for this list were we all to work on it?

I would suggest a serious list be immediately adopted by the industry.
We dont have to be democratic and certainly not dogmatic.
Exporters, importers, wholesalers, online stores, and LFS would not order those species unless for special order (experts, scientists, universities)
The USL species would not be kept in stock by any of them. They would disappear from availability lists.

In this way industry would be shown to be policing themselves and therefor, at least on the issue of USL, the government and government agencies like USCRFT would not interfere.

The benefit would be that the needless slaughter of hundreds of thousands of fish and coral that has no reasonale chance of success in hobbyist tanks would stop.

Righty, if you dont get involved and the government or agency does get involved, have you considered which species would likely appear near the top of their list?

Thank you
Wayne

I still don't see what your overall plan for this list is. For instance, how are you planning on getting the 'industry' to adopt it? This kind of list has been generated in the past with little or no effect.
 

JennM

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Wayne... remember the old commercials on TV against drinking and driving? The motto was, "You are your own liquour control board".

I am my own unsuitable species regulator. ;)

Jenn
 

naesco

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Righty":3rrchybf said:
naesco":3rrchybf said:
Righty":3rrchybf said:
This kind of list has been tried many times in the past. What is the overall plan for this list were we all to work on it?

I would suggest a serious list be immediately adopted by the industry.
We dont have to be democratic and certainly not dogmatic.
Exporters, importers, wholesalers, online stores, and LFS would not order those species unless for special order (experts, scientists, universities)
The USL species would not be kept in stock by any of them. They would disappear from availability lists.

In this way industry would be shown to be policing themselves and therefor, at least on the issue of USL, the government and government agencies like USCRFT would not interfere.

The benefit would be that the needless slaughter of hundreds of thousands of fish and coral that has no reasonale chance of success in hobbyist tanks would stop.

Righty, if you dont get involved and the government or agency does get involved, have you considered which species would likely appear near the top of their list?

Thank you
Wayne

I still don't see what your overall plan for this list is. For instance, how are you planning on getting the 'industry' to adopt it? This kind of list has been generated in the past with little or no effect.

Fair enough. I have the following suggestions.

1. Start an US wide industry organization or better yet use an existing one like AMDA
2. Invorigate it with concerned industry leaders who genuinely believe that reeform is necessary. Think of whom the new AMDA Board of Directors might be.
3. Staff AMDA so that the burden of the details of leadership are not solely on those industry leaders who also have to make a living.
4. Develope goals for issues like cyanide, the USL, captive/larval raised
fish/coral etc. Take baby steps but move forward.
5. Educate Educate Educate the industry members and non-members so
they buy in to the programme. In the case of USL or quasi USL lists explain why it is not a good idea to carry the species. Give them something to make them look good and concerned in the eyes of their customers. Let them know where larval and captive raised fish and coral are available and why it is in their interest to support their success.
6. Keep the appropriate authorities like USCRFT apprised of the progress industry is making.
7. Support MAC/REEFCHECK and get involved with them so that what these organizations are doing is more meaningful to the members and non-members. Have these organizations streamline things so that substantial compliance is the goal rather than burdensome paperwork.
Have them listen more.
8. Meet with other RDO staff and change the purpose of this forum to incorporate the goals rather than continue as it is. For example have the staff involved and lead discussions as you have just done.

9. Invite the acknowledged experts, Rubec, Steve, Fenner, Delbeek, Sprung and the authors of the current books like Scott Michaels to join in and educate both industry and hobbyists. Put the reeform isssue front and centre at conventions. Have the top flight speakers speak about reeform at the gala speakers dinner instead of the backroom at 8:00 the following morning. Present reeform as cool and the past practices as, well, passe.

I invite you and everyone else to seriously add to list.
10.
11.
.
.
.
Sincerely
Wayne Ryan
 
A

Anonymous

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naesco":2a6l20kh said:
Righty":2a6l20kh said:
naesco":2a6l20kh said:
Righty":2a6l20kh said:
This kind of list has been tried many times in the past. What is the overall plan for this list were we all to work on it?

I would suggest a serious list be immediately adopted by the industry.
We dont have to be democratic and certainly not dogmatic.
Exporters, importers, wholesalers, online stores, and LFS would not order those species unless for special order (experts, scientists, universities)
The USL species would not be kept in stock by any of them. They would disappear from availability lists.

In this way industry would be shown to be policing themselves and therefor, at least on the issue of USL, the government and government agencies like USCRFT would not interfere.

The benefit would be that the needless slaughter of hundreds of thousands of fish and coral that has no reasonale chance of success in hobbyist tanks would stop.

Righty, if you dont get involved and the government or agency does get involved, have you considered which species would likely appear near the top of their list?

Thank you
Wayne

I still don't see what your overall plan for this list is. For instance, how are you planning on getting the 'industry' to adopt it? This kind of list has been generated in the past with little or no effect.

Fair enough. I have the following suggestions.

1. Start an US wide industry organization or better yet use an existing one like AMDA
2. Invorigate it with concerned industry leaders who genuinely believe that reeform is necessary. Think of whom the new AMDA Board of Directors might be.
3. Staff AMDA so that the burden of the details of leadership are not solely on those industry leaders who also have to make a living.
4. Develope goals for issues like cyanide, the USL, captive/larval raised
fish/coral etc. Take baby steps but move forward.
5. Educate Educate Educate the industry members and non-members so
they buy in to the programme. In the case of USL or quasi USL lists explain why it is not a good idea to carry the species. Give them something to make them look good and concerned in the eyes of their customers. Let them know where larval and captive raised fish and coral are available and why it is in their interest to support their success.
6. Keep the appropriate authorities like USCRFT apprised of the progress industry is making.
7. Support MAC/REEFCHECK and get involved with them so that what these organizations are doing is more meaningful to the members and non-members. Have these organizations streamline things so that substantial compliance is the goal rather than burdensome paperwork.
Have them listen more.
8. Meet with other RDO staff and change the purpose of this forum to incorporate the goals rather than continue as it is. For example have the staff involved and lead discussions as you have just done.

9. Invite the acknowledged experts, Rubec, Steve, Fenner, Delbeek, Sprung and the authors of the current books like Scott Michaels to join in and educate both industry and hobbyists. Put the reeform isssue front and centre at conventions. Have the top flight speakers speak about reeform at the gala speakers dinner instead of the backroom at 8:00 the following morning. Present reeform as cool and the past practices as, well, passe.

I invite you and everyone else to seriously add to list.
10.
11.
.
.
.
Sincerely
Wayne Ryan

Great suggestions. Now, how are you going to get them to happen? Stuff like this doesn't happen by itself, it needs someone to make it happen. I have little enthusiasm for people who say 'wouldn't it be great it', but don't do the work to make it happen. Without someone to spearhead this, its just talk, which is fine, but not something I am all that interested in because its all been talked to death and IMO it needs action.
 
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The resounding answer from industry can be summarized as follows.

huh?

what 'resounding answer from the industry' ?


there would need to be a few thousand poster answering that one to get even an approximate reflection of the mindset, let alone a 'resounding answer'.


so how do you get to that terminology, wayne?
 

naesco

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You know Vitz, upon reflection, I will take those words back.

My summary was a tad extreme because I sense many in industry, even in a small way, share my concerns for our industry and hobby. They just need leadership from within.

Hopefully some of them will come forward and move the reeform ball closer to the goal of a sustainable, responsible industry.

Wayne Ryan
 
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Anonymous

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i'm trying to get a handle on how you 'sense' that, and on what you base your perceptions on-seeing as how your not involved at all in the industry
 

naesco

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vitz":nvh691ai said:
i'm trying to get a handle on how you 'sense' that, and on what you base your perceptions on-seeing as how your not involved at all in the industry

I see that you are just back after a 'weeks holiday'.
Why don't you read the posts that have been posted in your absence carefully and see whether there is a sense of change in the air.

Thank you

Wayne
 
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Anonymous

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why can't you ever just answer a question directly, without being evasive and non-comittal

i do not sense any change from the INDUSTRY-this forum does not reflect the INDUSTRY-it reflects a teeny handful of industry related person's point of views.


my question still stands-it is an honest non antagonistic question


how do you arrive at all of your industry related statements you make, re: what the industry thinks, does, or plans to think and do ?
 
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naesco":1bek1jz0 said:
vitz":1bek1jz0 said:
i'm trying to get a handle on how you 'sense' that, and on what you base your perceptions on-seeing as how your not involved at all in the industry

I see that you are just back after a 'weeks holiday'.
Why don't you read the posts that have been posted in your absence carefully and see whether there is a sense of change in the air.

Thank you

Wayne

your reply does not answer, nor is it even related to, my question

i do find it highly condescending in tone, though-especially your observation/reference about my nice restful holiday :)
 

sdcfish

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Vitz,

I think I can answer some of the questions that you made and cover some of Naesco's suggestions.

Amda.....great concept, great idea, highly potential, etc.....

Like Naeso mentioned, getting support from the industry could boost Amda's support and membership. This organization could really help create awareness to the dealers and reach the hobbyists. Only if retailers knew about Amda, and if Amda were able to enlist a majority of the retailers.

It's understood that Amda is really for dealers/retailers, and that in the past, it was frowned upon to have Wholesalers and other industry people get too close to the org.

Anyway, without creating a campaign here, it was last years elections that Industry tried to become involved and help guide Amda's role. The elections were made, and industry was not voted in.

Next year, I hope that Industry again will try to get involved and run for office again. Pretty much the same plan that Naesco had laid out, was the agenda of Industry.

We will just have to wait until December for the next elections and hope that the voting members see an even stronger reason to look to Industry to get the bump start the org. needs and gain the support of the retailers nationwide.

I know their are other options for Industry, but I still feel that Amda's mission statement and original goals are best achieved with Industry's involvement and support.

Best regards

Eric
 
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Anonymous

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what exactly do you mean by 'industry' ?

mac isn't the 'industry'

amda isn't the 'industry'

sdc isn't the 'industry'

retailers, all of them placed together, aren't the 'industry'

same for the wholesalers

these are all parts of an industry-no one group can ever claim to be or represent the 'industry' as a whole.

pijac is the closest thing i can think of as being a single body that may reflect the 'industry', vis a vis a centralized body that can affect legislation/policies, or have a 'finger on the pulse' of trends in the industry


i'm trying to understand how a non-industry related individual (read:eek:ne who has NO direct experience with the industry at any level on a continual basis), could even begin to presume that they know anything about the 'industry' as a collective body-)especially when there isn't really a collective body-no 2 wholesalers/retailers can really completely agree on things re: policies/practices, ime, due to the highly competetive mindset of the various businesses involved.).

(the ol' 'crab mentality' )

or, how they can have an appreciation of the scale of things that go on over the world re: the collection/sale/transport etc etc both for the MO, and the food fishing sides

heck, most retailers don't even have a clue, and they deal with the 'industry' every day ;)


and with all due respect, i'd rather hear naesco's answers from naesco ;)

(that is, if he can answer them without being evasive, obtuse, or condescending-which really flabbergasts me- an ignorant person being condescending to those who know more about the subject at hand is the epitome of rudeness and bad manners, imo)


how is it that i'm the only one who seems to think that naesco using the word 'our' in the thread title is inappropriate, to say the least-if not grossly and obviously insulting to those of us that are in the industry, especially given the evidently complete lack of understanding of any aspect of how the industry works by naesco, with all of the grandiose and assumptive statements he's made time and time again, and keeps making ?


it's like if i was to join a BB for UL, and start rallying cries for different cert. standards, without even knowing how to wire up a plug ;) :roll:


FWIW-i'm slowly but surely beginning to think that only people who actually make a living in this industry should be allowed to post in the ind. forum, if for nothing else, to cut down on the amount of 'static noise' drowning out the truly worthwhile 'informational transmissions'

what did AMDA practically accomplish when retailers WERE actively aware of it's existence ?
what percentage of retailers out there do you think even care about any of these issues (wholesalers as well)?


all of the above q's are really a teency tip on a huge iceberg, but you get the idea of the problem i have with the term 'industry'-as a term, it means absolutely nothing ;)
 

naesco

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sdcfish":1z7nijzr said:
Vitz,

I think I can answer some of the questions that you made and cover some of Naesco's suggestions.

Amda.....great concept, great idea, highly potential, etc.....

Like Naeso mentioned, getting support from the industry could boost Amda's support and membership. This organization could really help create awareness to the dealers and reach the hobbyists. Only if retailers knew about Amda, and if Amda were able to enlist a majority of the retailers.

It's understood that Amda is really for dealers/retailers, and that in the past, it was frowned upon to have Wholesalers and other industry people get too close to the org.

Anyway, without creating a campaign here, it was last years elections that Industry tried to become involved and help guide Amda's role. The elections were made, and industry was not voted in.

Next year, I hope that Industry again will try to get involved and run for office again. Pretty much the same plan that Naesco had laid out, was the agenda of Industry.

We will just have to wait until December for the next elections and hope that the voting members see an even stronger reason to look to Industry to get the bump start the org. needs and gain the support of the retailers nationwide.

I know their are other options for Industry, but I still feel that Amda's mission statement and original goals are best achieved with Industry's involvement and support.

Best regards

Eric

Thanks for your post Eric.

It would be nice to see if we can attract some of the AMDA past and present directors and get them to add to this thread.
There may be an opportunity to get some of the ideas presented to be acted on now.

So, AMDA, please post some of your comments,
Thanks.
Wayne Ryan
 

naesco

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Righty":cei4b5po said:
naesco":cei4b5po said:
Righty":cei4b5po said:
naesco":cei4b5po said:
Righty":cei4b5po said:
This kind of list has been tried many times in the past. What is the overall plan for this list were we all to work on it?

I would suggest a serious list be immediately adopted by the industry.
We dont have to be democratic and certainly not dogmatic.
Exporters, importers, wholesalers, online stores, and LFS would not order those species unless for special order (experts, scientists, universities)
The USL species would not be kept in stock by any of them. They would disappear from availability lists.

In this way industry would be shown to be policing themselves and therefor, at least on the issue of USL, the government and government agencies like USCRFT would not interfere.

The benefit would be that the needless slaughter of hundreds of thousands of fish and coral that has no reasonale chance of success in hobbyist tanks would stop.

Righty, if you dont get involved and the government or agency does get involved, have you considered which species would likely appear near the top of their list?

Thank you
Wayne

I still don't see what your overall plan for this list is. For instance, how are you planning on getting the 'industry' to adopt it? This kind of list has been generated in the past with little or no effect.

Fair enough. I have the following suggestions.

1. Start an US wide industry organization or better yet use an existing one like AMDA
2. Invorigate it with concerned industry leaders who genuinely believe that reeform is necessary. Think of whom the new AMDA Board of Directors might be.
3. Staff AMDA so that the burden of the details of leadership are not solely on those industry leaders who also have to make a living.
4. Develope goals for issues like cyanide, the USL, captive/larval raised
fish/coral etc. Take baby steps but move forward.
5. Educate Educate Educate the industry members and non-members so
they buy in to the programme. In the case of USL or quasi USL lists explain why it is not a good idea to carry the species. Give them something to make them look good and concerned in the eyes of their customers. Let them know where larval and captive raised fish and coral are available and why it is in their interest to support their success.
6. Keep the appropriate authorities like USCRFT apprised of the progress industry is making.
7. Support MAC/REEFCHECK and get involved with them so that what these organizations are doing is more meaningful to the members and non-members. Have these organizations streamline things so that substantial compliance is the goal rather than burdensome paperwork.
Have them listen more.
8. Meet with other RDO staff and change the purpose of this forum to incorporate the goals rather than continue as it is. For example have the staff involved and lead discussions as you have just done.

9. Invite the acknowledged experts, Rubec, Steve, Fenner, Delbeek, Sprung and the authors of the current books like Scott Michaels to join in and educate both industry and hobbyists. Put the reeform isssue front and centre at conventions. Have the top flight speakers speak about reeform at the gala speakers dinner instead of the backroom at 8:00 the following morning. Present reeform as cool and the past practices as, well, passe.

I invite you and everyone else to seriously add to list.
10.
11.
.
.
.
Sincerely
Wayne Ryan

Great suggestions. Now, how are you going to get them to happen? Stuff like this doesn't happen by itself, it needs someone to make it happen. I have little enthusiasm for people who say 'wouldn't it be great it', but don't do the work to make it happen. Without someone to spearhead this, its just talk, which is fine, but not something I am all that interested in because its all been talked to death and IMO it needs action.

I agree with your comments.
We have had sufficent debate. Now is the time for action.
Would you be interested in being part of an action team, Righty, if someone in Industry in found to lead it?
Thanks
Wayne
 

naesco

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Vitz, I fully agree with Righty's and Eric's comments.
Action and a leader who will lead the charge for reeform is what is needed not an endless debate on semantics.
Thanks
Wayne
 
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you still as always, have not answered my question placed to you directly

can you answer it without relying on anyone else's words?
 
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vitz":ttv700fp said:
what exactly do you mean by 'industry' ?

mac isn't the 'industry'

amda isn't the 'industry'

sdc isn't the 'industry'

retailers, all of them placed together, aren't the 'industry'

same for the wholesalers

these are all parts of an industry-no one group can ever claim to be or represent the 'industry' as a whole.

pijac is the closest thing i can think of as being a single body that may reflect the 'industry', vis a vis a centralized body that can affect legislation/policies, or have a 'finger on the pulse' of trends in the industry


i'm trying to understand how a non-industry related individual (read:eek:ne who has NO direct experience with the industry at any level on a continual basis), could even begin to presume that they know anything about the 'industry' as a collective body-)especially when there isn't really a collective body-no 2 wholesalers/retailers can really completely agree on things re: policies/practices, ime, due to the highly competetive mindset of the various businesses involved.).

(the ol' 'crab mentality' )

or, how they can have an appreciation of the scale of things that go on over the world re: the collection/sale/transport etc etc both for the MO, and the food fishing sides

heck, most retailers don't even have a clue, and they deal with the 'industry' every day ;)


and with all due respect, i'd rather hear naesco's answers from naesco ;)

(that is, if he can answer them without being evasive, obtuse, or condescending-which really flabbergasts me- an ignorant person being condescending to those who know more about the subject at hand is the epitome of rudeness and bad manners, imo)


how is it that i'm the only one who seems to think that naesco using the word 'our' in the thread title is inappropriate, to say the least-if not grossly and obviously insulting to those of us that are in the industry, especially given the evidently complete lack of understanding of any aspect of how the industry works by naesco, with all of the grandiose and assumptive statements he's made time and time again, and keeps making ?


it's like if i was to join a BB for UL, and start rallying cries for different cert. standards, without even knowing how to wire up a plug ;) :roll:


FWIW-i'm slowly but surely beginning to think that only people who actually make a living in this industry should be allowed to post in the ind. forum, if for nothing else, to cut down on the amount of 'static noise' drowning out the truly worthwhile 'informational transmissions'


what did AMDA practically accomplish when retailers WERE actively aware of it's existence ?
what percentage of retailers out there do you think even care about any of these issues (wholesalers as well)?


all of the above q's are really a teency tip on a huge iceberg, but you get the idea of the problem i have with the term 'industry'-as a term, it means absolutely nothing ;)


While I agree with your whole post vitz, I think I especially agree with the part I bolded.

Even though that would exclude me as well.

I really have no experience of anything that happens "behind the hobby"

But if ever it comes to where people who are uninvolved behind the hobby are excluded from posting here I would still like to be able to read the threads. I find it all very interesting.
 

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