• Why not take a moment to introduce yourself to our members?

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cortez marine":3pitxdt6 said:
Rich,
After ruining the chances of getting a few thousand guys off cyanide and teaching them that net collecting doesn't pay?
They have spent 9 years and more millions then that proving the case against sustainability...and moving in the wrong direction.
There could be no greater crime against the trade , the reefs and the fisherman then this.

This org. has lost the cause and stood by as millions more coral heads died in the years that they spent in the office.
Steve
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So somehow that means that the new leadership you have been asking for for years cannot make a difference? If that is what you are saying, I am confused as to why you have been calling for that leadership change all this time.

And, if getting those guys off cyanide is a lost cause like you seem to say above, whats the point in talking about it any more. After all, as you say, the chances of change 'have been ruined'.
 

Jaime Baquero

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Thales":rt8y6rlb said:
cortez marine":rt8y6rlb said:
Rich,
After ruining the chances of getting a few thousand guys off cyanide and teaching them that net collecting doesn't pay?
They have spent 9 years and more millions then that proving the case against sustainability...and moving in the wrong direction.
There could be no greater crime against the trade , the reefs and the fisherman then this.

This org. has lost the cause and stood by as millions more coral heads died in the years that they spent in the office.
Steve
_________________

So somehow that means that the new leadership you have been asking for for years cannot make a difference? If that is what you are saying, I am confused as to why you have been calling for that leadership change all this time.

And, if getting those guys off cyanide is a lost cause like you seem to say above, whats the point in talking about it any more. After all, as you say, the chances of change 'have been ruined'.

Thales,

That leadership has to come from someone that people CAN trust, someone that has NOT a negative background, someone that is in GOOD terms with people within the industry, someone that RESPECTS, HAS TACT and manners.
 

clarionreef

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Rich
New blood is clearly needed and by that I mean in a new organization.
This 9-year one was a non starter from the git-go as its a device of the WWF to fund and futher a totally seperate agenda.
Knowing this....I know what they are looking for and its not at all what real reef/aquarium people want or can live with.

MAC served its purpose as a funding draw from major donars to the WWFs playbook. It has run its course, lost the momentum and not attracted much interest from the aquarium trade.

The Philippine Bureau of Fisheries needs now to stop farming out important issues to foreign, detached interests and fulfill their own duty to their own people.
BFARs new advisor on our trade is back where he belongs [after being fired by MAC} and has vowed to get it right this time.
This is now in play and we can only hope that this time they remain committed.
Steve
 
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Jaime Baquero":1yu7xh44 said:
Thales":1yu7xh44 said:
cortez marine":1yu7xh44 said:
Rich,
After ruining the chances of getting a few thousand guys off cyanide and teaching them that net collecting doesn't pay?
They have spent 9 years and more millions then that proving the case against sustainability...and moving in the wrong direction.
There could be no greater crime against the trade , the reefs and the fisherman then this.

This org. has lost the cause and stood by as millions more coral heads died in the years that they spent in the office.
Steve
_________________

So somehow that means that the new leadership you have been asking for for years cannot make a difference? If that is what you are saying, I am confused as to why you have been calling for that leadership change all this time.

And, if getting those guys off cyanide is a lost cause like you seem to say above, whats the point in talking about it any more. After all, as you say, the chances of change 'have been ruined'.

Thales,

That leadership has to come from someone that people CAN trust, someone that has NOT a negative background, someone that is in GOOD terms with people within the industry, someone that RESPECTS, HAS TACT and manners.

:roll:

Make your points without the slights please.
 

PeterIMA

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I hope that the MAC finds the person they need. That person should be honest, have credability, and be committed to working with the various factions of the aquarium trade, conservation groups, and governments. He/she should also be sensitive to the needs of the collectors and the cultures in host countries like the Philippines and Indonesia (as well as other countries). The MAC needs to reinvent itself around doing things right. This needs to include sustainable harvesting, habitat protection, equity for collectors, and benefits for the communties in the host countries, as well as a workable chain of custody.

I see the need for communty-based management, zoning strategies, alternative livelihoods, and other components of ecosystem-based management. A holistic approach is needed. The MAC has no legal authority, but can network effectively to help make these things happen.

Lower mortality throughout the chain of custody is achievable with the proper net-trainings including better methods for decompression, holding, transport, and acclimation of the fish and invertebrates being shipped.

Hopefully, we will see an expansion of village-based mariculture initiatives that are MAC-Certified. The MAC with its partners and collaborators should become agents of change and reform to fullfill the promises made to the World Bank under MAMTI. This can only be done with effective leadership.

Peter Rubec
 

Jaime Baquero

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Peter,

I agree. The holistic approach is needed. Fisherfolk's social and economic aspects must the tackle at the same time than technical aspects in order to achieve concrete results which will benefit the environment. Changes will be evident only when central governments in countries such as the Philippines and Indonesia get "seriously" involve in the process.

I also hope that MAC gets the right person.
 

PeterIMA

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Concerning the resignation of Paul Holthus,

With Paul Holthus leaving the MAC for new challenges, I need to make some brief comments on the legacy the MAC has been trying to create in Indonesia and the Philippines. Doing nothing about it will destroy the marine ornamental (MO) industry.

MAC was created to help the industry obtain marine organisms that are properly collected, handled, and shipped. Its goals were supposed to help eradicate waste of these resources, to help conserve, and to help stop the deterioration of the marine environment, providing sustainability for the industry. In return what naturally follows is fair equity for the poorest of the poor in our coastal areas, the marginalized collectors of ornamental fish and other animals needed by the MO trade. The whole cycle when complete benefits the entire chain.

I admire the ability of Paul Holthus to raise funds. That is hard. But, raising funds and doing things the right way with the expected impact is another story. When an organization needs achievements associated with the use of funds, such as those provided by the World Bank GEF under MAMTI, there is an urgent need to claim huge successes. But, in the end the truth will always prevail. Slowly, the importing countries noticed the discrepancies with MAC's claims in newsletters, expensive advertisements, and articles in magazines. People began to ask: "After all these years, where are the high quality MAC Certified fish? Where are the MAC Certified soft and hard corals?"

In the exporting countries where things are really happing, we see the effects of what MAC has done over the past five years. Those who are not blinded are filled with disgust. The collectors and people like myself, who really know the trade and are situated in the field have noticed major discrepancies. There is no need to find out from MAC staff, who seek to protect lucrative salaries and are gagged by their employer.

It is understandable that those in the west that feel something is going wrong, after not seeing MO products flowing through the chain of custody, will only see and suspect a miniscule portion of the volume of resources which have been wasted; what is really happening in the process of certification; and the impacts on the collectors and exporters. This we see and no matter how it is denied we see it.

MAC has created 'for lack of better words' a subculture where things are distorted by grand denials of the truth. Denials that cyanide is being used for collecting MO fish by those who are card-bearing MAC supporters, denials of bad handling and husbandry, denials of high mortality, and useless Collection Area Management Plans (CAMPs) which are just canned outputs based on inadequate training programs. In fact, in the village of Les on the Island of Bali, the MAC's trainings were so bad that the collectors killed many of the MO fish before they were even exported. These kinds of trainings unfortunately have been passed on wherever MAC has conducted its programs.

What is worse is that during the years that MAC taught incorrect methods for collection and handling MO fish, the collectors believed that this was the proper way and that these wrong methods have the tacit approval and blessing of MAC. "So why will they be wrong? They have the money."

All illegal fishing activities have been driven deeper underground. It takes one who really knows the whole aspect and the driving forces in the trade, making it harder to determine and more time to dig out the truth. One just needs to work up the chain to see the whole sordid mess.

Recently I met John Brandt at one of the sites where I was working and I told him what a mess the MAC had created. He nodded in agreement. But who is to be blamed? Being naïve excuses no one, for you are playing with people's livelihoods, which are affected by the environment they rely on. It is the responsibility of senior MAC staff to see to it that there are no adverse effects on the reefs and local communities with what they undertake. It is the responsibility of MAC's Executive Director and other managers to listen, evaluate problems, and then decide after considering the whole approach. Most of all, they must be flexible enough to correct what goes wrong. Unfortunately, the MAC's managers have not performed in this way. They have made bad decisions and refused to admit they were wrong. One cannot force the wrong thing to make it right. The MAC's Executive Director cannot have "yes men" around him that parrot his decisions to give him self satisfaction. But this is the type of organization that has been created.

Well Paul, did I not tell you how things would turn out if you went this direction before I became "persona non-grata"? Farewell to you Paul. I mean no malice. My regret is that you could have really done it right and achieved what MAC set to be achieve. I hope the new challenges would be worth your skills and that you will be able to achieve goals that will affect people's lives and the environment for the better.

As for MAC, if they continue to go on this same path it would be better for them to back out and fold up from this present endeavor and admit that they failed miserably. At least the waste of money will cease. If the MAC can reform under new leadership, maybe honest reforms and real certification can begin to be implemented.

Sincerely,
Ferdinand Cruz
 

naesco

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I wish Paul the best of success in his new endeavours.

MAC has the infrastructure and money to continue. Hopefully the Board of Directors will hire a take charge kind of guy.
Someone who can set targets and hire the staff with the will to meet them.

But the Board of Directors must first purge those on the board that continue to deal in the cyanide trade. Those that financially support MAC must withhold funding until this necessary step is achieved.

A conference should be held of 'doers' and a fast track way to get clean fish to the hobby developed.

Dr. Rubec and Jaime are on the right track. Look after and listen to the fishers first and pay them fairly.

Wayne Ryan
 
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Ferdinand wrote:

MAC was created to help the industry obtain marine organisms that are properly collected, handled, and shipped

Ferdie, with all due respect, you couldn't be more dead wrong or mistaken.that was merely a 'line' fed to everyone from the beginning, and alot of well meaning/intentioned/minded folks got hoodwinked by it hook line and sinker.

MAC was/is a certification scheme that was a classic case of 'circular logic applied in practice'-for lack of a better way of describing it, regardless of what holthus (con artist extraordinaire),jb, or others claimed ;)
 

clarionreef

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Vitz,
Ferdie was just being polite. [ Speaking direct and what you honestly feel is frowned upon in some cultures... and industries.]
No doubt....the funders now led by Steven Broad of the WWF will select Pauls accountant or some one else who step, fetch and obey them. The BOD will accept this decision.
True they are bankrupt...but only in deeds. This budget will seek another to experiment with and carry out policies from the mother ship.

I sure am not comfortable in the new era of corporate environmentalism where the worst offenders can pay for absolution and the new greens sell it to em!
Walmart and the WWF?
And MAC was originally set up to clean the image of Petsmart by the WWF!
Then , when Petsmart didn't go salt....this new budget without a cause mission drifted into one "in-vogue" project after another...and 10 years later we have....more energy put into quarterly reports then into actual field work.
My goodness...what happened to the good guys?. One thing for sure, Reform is going to be harder to generate in a trade that sees the new greens as money grubbing , turf obsessed and self centered.

The sad thing is...this kind of thing is not too difficult for us on the inside to fix....and yet is apparently impossible from the outside. Problem is...the new reform NGOs will never contract out for expertise and will always spend the money on themselves, among themselves and with themselves foremost in mind. They take ocean skills, that they do not possess lightly ...and later seem surprised at how difficult it is to effect the changes called for among fisherman.
It took a lot of misled and mis-guided effort effort to keep the cyanide trade alive in the times it wanted to change....and could have been changed.
Teaching cyanide fisherman that net collecting doesn't work has been the hallmark of the MAC and the WWFs legacy... .

Steve
PS...I used to belong to the WWF in college....I actually thought they had the environment foremost in mind back then. :oops:
I think they should stay outta the water and return to their areas of greater expertise.
.
 

Jaime Baquero

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I think one of the major problems MAC has been facing is related to the complexity of working in countries such as the Philippines and Indonesia where levels of corruption and poverty are that high. To this, we have to consider the lack of interest and commitment from the central governments to deal with environmental problems created by fishers in coastal communities.

As someone said before those governments are facing social and economic problems in other sectors of the population considered more important to the economic development of their countries. Fisherfolks DO NOT contribute "enough" to that economic development and as a consequence they can be neglected. Those governments have other "priorities" such as roads, schools, hospitals. Fisherfolk's livelihood, economic and social concerns are not part of those "priorities"

Having the Philippines as the "base country" to develop the certification model complicated things. For those who have had the opportunity of working in the Philippines know very well how complicated is to do something. No doubt that there are countries where that "pilot project" could have been developed "easier".

Paul Holthus did accomplish many things no one else had accomplished before. He got stakeholders within the marine aquarium industry working together to find solutions. That by itself is something difficult to do. What I can see is that some in this forum missed a great opportunity to contribute in a positive way to find solutions.

We can see how difficult (impossible) has been to do something concrete and positive in this forum in the last 5-6 years.

Regarding the cyanide problem in the Philippines as well as issues related to mortality, handling and holding at community level we should recognize that there has been a pattern; NGOs have been the ones leading initiatives tending to solve a problem created by the industry. The problem has been the lack of economic participation from that industry.

Most of the industry has been doing the same that the central governments in developing countries that is ignoring and neglecting coral reefs and fish collectors..

To change things around it will take time, the willingness and commitment of each one of the sectors, including central governments in developing countries.

Paul, many thanks for your contribution. All the best.
 

ETOPS

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Somewhere, somehow; the person who coined the phrase " No good deeds go unpunished" must be smiling. It's sad but it's true.
 

PeterIMA

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Vitz, I agree the the MAC was (is) a certification scheme. Where they went wrong is when they adopted International Standards Organization (ISO) standards and decided not to follow their own MAC standards.

Peter
 

clarionreef

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Well Vitz,

I would like to add...........delete..delete.... and delete.............believe we are better served by.............delete.............and then ..............delete.
Finally delete...........delete..........and delete.
What do you think of that?
Steve
PS....DELETE....delete...
 

PeterIMA

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The MAC is rotten at the core. If the MAC BOD hires from within its organization or from the other MAMTI partner organizations, we can expect more of the same. It will be impossible to have true reform. Rumor has it, that several individuals associated with the rot want the job of Executive Director for the MAC. If the MO trade allows it, it will only have itself to blame.
 
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