Algae Turf Scrubber, What do you think?

[bfessler]

Hi Len,

I know I said I was done till I had something to report but one last post on this. I just wanted you all to know that I'm not offended or defensive really. Its just that I think we already came to that conclusion a couple pages ago and were just rehashing the same ideas with different words. I'll keep you posted when I get to building it.

 

[Len]

Yeah, I think we're rehashing too

What I just don't get is why you insist on trying something thousands of experiences have told you doesn't work well. It's like trying to push a rock up a hill and rejecting other peoples' advice to use a wheel barrel ... simply for the sake of being different. It just doesn't make any sense to me

 

[Anonymous]

So is it just that were easy targets then, that can be pounced on, made to look silly and eventually we'll go away, that so much effort goes into preventing any credible effort go on here.

I don't at all think that is what is going on here. It is however, often the reaction when people are told something they really want to try has been tried. If you ask what people think, I don't understand why you don't seem to like it when they tell you.

This thread would have been about one page long if everyone simply gave their honest opinion and let it be. Were up to 4 pages now and nothing has even been done yet.

But this is a discussion forum and things get discussed. That's kind of the point isn't it? And, a lot of the continued posts are in response to your defense - if you just read everyones opinions and let it go the thread would be done.

No fantastic claims in this thread, no attempts to gain converts, none of the horrible things everyone gets upset about but still lots of drama. Way back a couple pages ago when I said I had decided to try it, if the experts would have let it be there wouldn't have been any more debate and when I the system inevitably failed and I admitted such everyone would be vindicated. But instead it continues, It hasn't worked, It won't work, You won't be happy with the results, don't try, just do it our proven way, ..... Its incredible. I could see all the effort if I was in your face telling you why your wrong and I'm right but thats not the case. There are lots of pats on the back and way to go's here if someone uses your proven methods but no encouragement for anyone who steps outside the lines, even if they don't make outrageous claims or preach their experiment as the most revolutionary idea since salt mix.

Dude! Read some of the first posts that say ATS have their place! No one is calling you a fool...do it man, and let us know what happens.

Anyway this is a waste of time. I'm going to stop commenting on this thread for now until I actually have something new to post. I'll let you see my design and mock it if you will and I'll let you know if it reduces the excess algae in the tank and weather it was worth the effort to me building it, but I have better things to do than continue the debate over whether I should even build it or not. Perhaps I'll just start a new thread about the build and how it works out for anyone interested. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Oy vey. Sorry you feel this way.
The debate is useful in my opinion - if you don't feel the need to post roll eyes. I do plenty of stuff on my system that people think is silly, and I appreciate them telling me they think its silly as it helps me decide if I really want to do it or not.

 

[bfessler]

OK, I went to dinner took a few dozen deep breaths and cleared my head.

I still feel like we are just rehashing the same things over and over. Can we agree that the following points have been discussed to death and that the opinions of both sides are well understood?
1. The generally accepted, best practices rule in favor of a skimmer over a scrubber.
2. Despite the fact that current best practices suggest the use of a skimmer is the way to go there are other ways to manage a reef tank.
3. I understand that many of you don't understand why I don't simply follow the best practices. I have tried in this 5 pages of posts to explain it and answer all your objections but at this point we are just rehashing the same stuff over and over. Here is a list of my reasons. They may not make since to you but to me they seem reasonable.
1. Nutrient levels on my tank are within norms. Last tests for nutrients showed Nitrates 0, Phosphates 0.25 ppm. PH 8.4, Calcium 550, Magnesium 1350, Alkalinity 12DKH.
2. Water is clear with no yellow color or cloudiness.
3. Corals are all growing nicely. I have a mix of Softies, LPS, and SPS.
4. I am only looking for a way to decrease the presence of algae in the tank as measurable water parameters are within norms.
5. 10% water changes every 2 weeks are keeping Calcium, Magnesium and trace elements high enough to promote coral growth.
6. I want to try an build the solution to my increased hair algae rather than purchasing it. I am comfortable building a Scrubber but not qualified to design and build a skimmer.
7. I am not opposed to the use of a skimmer and may eventually use one but prefer to try an alternative method first.
8. I have thoroughly researched from many sources all available options and choose to try a Scrubber.
9. I have taken precautions to insure the safety of my livestock.
10. I don't think I can give any further reasons for my decision. If it still can't be understood then it just won't be understood.
4. I realize that the experts on this site recommend against the use of a scrubber and appreciate the advise of all parties however I have also been given advice from others with at least as much experience as those advising against it and feel this is an opportunity to to see how this system works. This doesn't negate the validity of a skimmer I just choose not to use one at this time.
5. while this is a discussion board rehashing the same argument over and over while entertaining does not shed new light on the issue, In fact it clouds the issue in pages of posts that cover the same issues.
6. If there is something in that we have not already discussed in the previous 5 pages of posts I am happy to discuss it but further discussion on these same issues simply distracts us all from more productive time spent on other issues or projects.

I get it, and understand your frustration over not being able to convince me to follow a different path but this is a system I can build myself, evaluate its pros and cons first hand and developer my own conclusions. This doesn't mean that I have already determined that a Scrubber is superior and am trying to prove that conclusion. Contrarily I am starting this project with an open mind and am willing to accept whatever presents itself as a result of using the Scrubber.

If we can agree to try not to rehash these issues I am more than willing to continue the discussion but am not willing to continue to spend time on issues already fully explored. I have tried to my best ability to explain where I am coming from but trying over and over to give thoughtful answers to similar questions is taking up so much of my time that I can't continue. I am not sure how many have posted one way or another but I am just one person with a limited amount of time so I have to stop. I hope you don't think I am hiding form the issue it's really a matter of time because I am trying to give meaningful answers to everyone who posts.

As I have said many times in the previous pages I asked for your thoughts and appreciate the responses. I respect the time and experience of those who have spent many years developing their systems and knowledge of reefkeeping. While I choose to take another path this doesn't diminish my respect for your experience and opinions. For those who have been involved in reefkeeping for many years I wonder if there was never a time when you chose a practice that was not considered best practices at the time. I would be willing to bet that most all reefers who have spent more than 5 years reefkeeping have at one time or another tried something that would have been frowned upon by the experts of the day. Whether it worked or not I'll bet you learned something and had fun in the process.

 

[WRASSER]

omg

 

[Anonymous]

Perhaps not a super duper sps tank but it would seem to me that Paul Baldassano’s 40 year old reef tank would seem to be a success.

http://reefkeeping.com/joomla/index.php ... r-old-reef

my .02

And Bob strikes again! You keep on doin' what makes 'em love ya. Great article, by the way, thanks for sharing that.

Breaking convention is painful, it really is. But I've seen too many really really successful convention-breakers to say some things just can't be done. The Tran brothers immediately come to mind, if some of you could have seen what these young men and other family members did in a 3bdm condo housing mom, dad, two brothers, one sister, aunt, uncle and two cousins. Biggest tank in there was 30 gallons, but they were breeding things in there that few hobbyists really bred. Stuffed into tanks and cared for in all the wrong ways, they'd been doing it that way all their lives.

Some folks just have a certain touch, and therein lies the art of fishkeeping.

We're trying to mimic nature, and who knows really and truly what all the variables are? Who's to say, when we're talking mostly about hobbyists and tradespeople?

I understand what's got Burt frustrated, it's an atmosphere. Don't let the naysaying you perceive get to you too much, ok? Most everyone here is (should be) talking from their own personal experience, so things like this can kind of come down to the numbers. Question is, is everyone doing the same thing the same way? Probably not.

 

[Anonymous]

Correct me if I am wrong, but, isn't that Snake (Hiatt) himself on the MajesticReef.net site?

I don't think so but I'm not sure. Back in March when I first tried researching the Hiatt System I came across the site. I think a guy named Richard owns the site. I got the impression that he was a close friend of Hiatt. I have never met nor spoken with Hiatt myself.

When I first contacted Richard he was very helpful, answering my e-mail messages and advising how I could set up my Nano to work with the system. His site was written terribly and full of grammatical and spelling errors. I told him if he wanted anyone to take him seriously he needed to town down his rhetoric and get someone fluent in English to proofread and make corrections to the text. He did fix some of the spelling but grammar and rhetoric are still bad.

FWIW I have used both the EcoAqualizer and multiple ATS... I am not bashing what I haven't tried. The AE was utterly useless. ATS was fine for what it is, but I find I can run a tighter system that requires less fiddling then an ATS.

I agree that the EA is bogus. Found an online source that ran scientific tests on the claims of the EcoAqualizer there was no measurable benefit installing the tubing with magnets taped to it on a tank. Thanks for the assessment of the ATS


I hope to encourage other hobbyists to be more open minded, and more encouraging when others try new things or look for new applications for old ways of doing things.

Pretty sure that is Snake. He had a booth at an event I did. the site may not be his, but pretty darn sure that is Snake

I say go for it and let us know how it works out Nothing wrong with trying it. I'm more interested in aged systems and the use of SM's ATS myself. That is when I have found ATS to start not working as well and algae starts to take hold in the DT.

You may feel may of us are closed minded, but, would I have tried the AE if I was closed minded? Once I was done with it I sent mine to some one that took it apart and did a write up/test on it. The one you saw may very well be the one I donated

 

[bfessler]

I'd be surprised if the Richard was Snake. His site was obviously written by someone of Asian heritage based on the grammatical usage throughout the site. I also spoke to Richard on the phone and he had an Asian accent. I have read some of Bill Hiatt's papers and he doesn't write that way and I doubt if it was his site he would allow the grammatical and spelling errors to exist.

As far as the closed mindedness goes I don't think that having a contrary opinion is closed minded. I think I just got frustrated rehashing the same stuff and the many times it was suggested I just forget about a Scrubber and go with a more accepted practice. I allowed myself to get sucked into spending too much time responding to every criticism and just got burned out on the thread.

I'm not a Hiatt disciple and haven't done or intend to do any scientific comparisons of this system but I do have to say that as far as the one day cycle and stability for the 6 months that my tank has used it, the system seems to perform well. I didn't push the system to its limits, just added a couple fish on day one, a few corals a couple days later and then slowly stocked the tank. The last tank I set up with the system was a frag tank that I built a filter system into the end of a 55G tank and only used the Right Now Bacteria, Tri Base Palletized Carbon and PH Rock, (No I don't know what this rock really is but my PH has always been stable at 8.4 when I use it). The tank has only been setup for about 4 weeks but I am growing Bird Nest, and Montipora in addition to zoanthids, xenia, anthelia, and palythoa. The tank is producing tons of pods and I put my scooter blenny in there and he is fatter then ever. I think that the biggest problem with the Hiatt System was Bill Hiatt himself. The few times I came across videos of him answering questions about his product he just expected everyone to take his word rather than explain the system in detail. He seemed to have a gruff demeanor and allowed for very little flexibility in how his system should be used. I tried the product just to see what all the hoopla was about and based on the criticism of the system and the arrogance of Bill I expected it to fail. But things turned out OK. I have posted my results on a couple boards just so if someone was looking for someones experience with the product it was out there but I haven't recommended it to anyone and to my knowledge nobody has tried the system based upon my experience.

Here's a couple pictures of the frag tank if your interested.

This one shows the PH Rock :roll:

 

[Anonymous]

Wow, some nice looking frags there! 8)

 

[bfessler]

Well I may not be needing the Scrubber or the Skimmer at this point. I tested my water and the parameters were all good. Nitrate 0 Phosphate .05 ppm and the algae started receeding on its own. Closer examination of the tank revealed what I believe was the cause of the outbreak. My Monitcap had grown large enough that it was blocking the light that used to shine through an arch to a soft coral given to me by a friend, (think its called waveing hand or but not sure), at the back of the tank. The whole center of the coral was dieing and I hadn't noticed it because the outer portions of the colony had grown up and were blocking my view of the center of the colony.

I removed the colony and fraged out the dieing mass from the middle, then put the frags into my frag tank. Next I added a few extra turbo snails and 2 of my biggest hermets to beef up the cleaning crew. The extra algae is nearly gone now, Water is extremely clear and I have 3 frags of the original colony.

I may still build the scrubber some day but the urgency to do it now has been eliminated.

 

[Anonymous]

Good to hear things are clearing up!