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ezee

Senior Member
Location
Brooklyn
Rating - 94.7%
18   1   0
Joetbs,

So any store that buys from this wholesaler will be receiving the same stock? And there may be several stores that are purchasing purple tangs with HLLE?

Is this one supplier that you listed as one of the best? If so, I guess that means that whole list is circumspect. Disappointing, I was hoping to use that list to help find good establishments.

E
 

Sean

Advanced Reefer
Location
Brooklyn
Rating - 100%
14   0   0
Wow some thread

I don't know what to say there where so many comments I could have made I'm kind of overwhelmed.

One thing I will say is that some of you are starting to get the half of it.
 

Sean

Advanced Reefer
Location
Brooklyn
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Some people understand the saying "you get what you pay for"

I could get my fish cheaper

I could sell you six fish at one time for your 50 gallon tank

I could stock my tanks with fish "to the gills"

......but at what costs?

I don't "push fish" on customers nor do I try and have every fish in stock at all times and you never win if your trying to beat everyone's price.

I've been in this industry a long long time. It's not as simple as buying from the right wholesaler and it's not even about QT. but I'll let you know is a good start.

Attitude and our Approach is what we as individuals need to look further into.
 

Sean

Advanced Reefer
Location
Brooklyn
Rating - 100%
14   0   0
griMReefer said:
sean i agree with what you said to an extent:
griMReefer said:

"you get what you pay for".



Yes everything is to an extent

and yes some people just take advantage of others but you as consumers have the upper hand. You have to lean to say "no thank you" and walk out. It's the most powerful thing you can do as a consumer. But then again you should also realize that sometimes you must pay for your beliefs. Example: $50 for a 2"-3" frag shouldn't seem outrageous
 

Sean

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Location
Brooklyn
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chris288 said:
Good points have been brought up on unethical practices, corruption and so on. I'm in agreement that most of this would be very difficult, if not impossible to correct without signifigant government/environmental lobbists involvement.
What we can have more influence over are the practices of our hobby. I'm with Herman on this one. We are part of the problem. Plenty of people here on this site buy healthy fish, but lose them to poor or improper aquarium conditions and simply repalce them. Aaron brings up a great point with impulse buys. I bite my lip every time I see someone buy a mandarin fish when they run a nano that is 1 month old with 12 pounds of LR because they had to have it. Or too many fish in a small tank with nitrate levels through the roof. This stuff drives me crazy. Impulse buys should be strongly discouraged here, but instead, I see people say, "yeah, I did the same thing... couldn't resist". And even have the balls to put a smiley face at the end. Why promote this behavior?
Next topic is the QT. I posted a thread here on MR asking the simple question if people QT or not. Everything in this hobby is debated... EVERYTHING! Glass or acrylic? DSB, SSB or BB? MH, T-5, PC or LED? Big skimmer or little skimmer? The list goes on and on for these debates. Yet the one thing that even guys like Julian Sprung, Anthony Calfo, Bob Fenner, all the guys we pay money to watch them speak, buy their books, read their magazine articles, etc. all agree that fish should be in QT before they go into a main display. No one argues this yet very few actually do it. When I posted the thread, someone wrote that QT is for amatures who are clueless and experts who have the room. This particular person uses "good husbandry" to avoid losses. Last time I checked, QT is considered good husbandry. He made it sound like he never lost a fish. This attitude will seriuosly keep people from establishing a QT or admitting that they have one which may cause newbie's to believe they really don't need one. An LFS cannot QT due to time and profits. QT is the hobbyists responsibility.
Another thing we allow and entertain on this site is when people don't have the budget to set up the correct aquarium for their pets and ask which expensive item they can pass on until they can afford it. To hell with that. How about you wait until you have the money to give the animals a proper environment? If you can't afford a good skimmer, I already know that you don't have a chiller and you'll have some die-off over the summer. Rather than buying a chiller, skimmer, appropriate lighting, etc. they replace what dies. I don't care how fish and corals are collected, they usually don't fare too well when your tank hits 90 degrees in the summer and your nitrates are high. They best lighting doesn't penetrate water as well that is not well skimmed. Replacing live stock is cheaper up front, but in the long run it is more expensive and more importantly, you've wasted animals and go right back to these collectors to get more stuff.
I'm pretty sure we've all had catastrophic failures along the way, for example, the compressor on my chiller crapped out last year while I was in Iraq. A lot of stuff had to be replaced. These things happen and members of MR fragged their own colonies to help out. I've fragged and given stuff away as well. That is as zero impact as you can get.
We should look at better discipline. Setting up a QT and not eventually turning it into another fully stocked tank. Resist impulse buys especially when you know your system cannot sustain it. Make sure you have the budget to provide the best possible aquarium.
What it comes down to is there is no good in trying to effect change in the Far East when your own backyard finances the problems.


Chris, we at Aquatic Creations are loving this entire observation on your part. Eloquent and well stated and makes all the right points for the right reasons! We highlighted some of our favorite parts of your quote. Thanks .....Olivere...AC.
 

griMReefer

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i remember Larry at the old ACE Aquarium (out of biz, was on Nrthn @ Main) would proudly refuse to sell any import fish or non-coralmorph inverts people wanted to buy "out the shipping box" until the had been "observed" for at least a week. he would mark sold to... on the tanks and tell customers when the fish would be released for purchase if it was still ok.

i just don't see any LFS doing that anymore. i see the reverse like:
"we're getting in a shipmenting today at noon be there before they're all gone" (FT).

i find the excuse that an animal fresh out of the lfs shipment "has a better chance" at survival in a private keeper's care than the retailer just as bittersweet and bewildering as the excuses for not having a QT while stocking a reef tank/s at home.

it sort of wreaks of "LOWERED EXPECTATIONS" for today's sw retailers as sw continues to rise in popularity.

im NOT a retailer so I WONT dare suggest how retailers systems and sales practices should be run - but for the sake of our environment i am just pointing out the ethical responsibility on the Retailer side on such issues as

volume pricing to the public. ie, 3 tangs for $ XX

selling out the shipping box without acclimation. ie, shipment-opening invitations.

selling imported fish without any guarantee on their short-term health or life whatsoever

not having some separate tanks and sumps; not having sick/not for sale tanks

not always refusing to sell a noticeably unhealthy fish

selling a sick fish together with medication for the customer to play doctor

selling acclimation-sensitive inverts and others without furnishing a personally recommended written step by step acclimation procedure, could just be as simple as xerox.

not displaying a public statement with regard to whether fish from phillipines or fish collected using cyanide are offered at your location or not.

not displaying reef and saltwater community compatibility charts prominently for the most popular species like tangs, triggers, clowns, etc

not bearing a certification/credential in saltwater livestock even thoug it is your storefron't speciality. whether some marine biology courses, a marine biologist, or a certified (ie, MAC) aquarist on staff. (years experience SELLING stuff is totally diferent criteria than formal education when youre handling lives not doormats)
 

DRZL

**ROCKSTAR**
Location
Hillside NJ
Rating - 100%
13   0   0
Chris288 said:
How about you wait until you have the money to give the animals a proper environment?.

I think im gonna make a shirt that says just that everytime I go to a LFS, or maybe even to some reefers houses..some even on this board:eek:rangehat

Joe,
very interesting thread ive also been following the threads over at reefs.org, and lately have been thinking of both sides of this problem (taking economics and environmental this semester, talk about opposite sides of the spectrum professors.) and unless buyers selectively go out and consider the most expensive option, like so many of us w/ our "LE's" i dont see a way that the right way could ever be the cheapest way. sort of like organic and naturally grown food.

its the walmart way I guess:frown:

And to reiterate a previous point, when you someone mistreating or miscaring for an animal say it. theres way too much hush PC crap going on, I see a naso in a 65g im calling it, i see someone say theyve got 51 fish in a 55, call it!:fishhit:
 
Rating - 99.1%
225   2   0
DRZL said:
i see someone say theyve got 51 fish in a 55, call it!:fishhit:

That's me. I am not a hyprocite who has to hide something-unlike some members here pretend to be nice guys and then turned out cheating all of you-yeah 3 times the wholesale price is as close as to the wholesale price or giving away a sick fish is a way to treat the fish nicely. You have your idea of raising fish not mine. My fish in the 55G are mostly breed within the same tank-may be over crowded but at least they are happy and some of them have been given away even in great health(not sick). I don't want to comment on others how to treat their fish like you who jump to conclusion to fast too early. But looks like I have no other choice but to do the same stupid voicing game.

I wonder if your fish has ever breed inside your own tank. Is your environment really that good for your fish-why are they not breeding-simply because you did not give them the right environment-you deny them with sex or you play dictator by seperating them from their mates or family. From the moment you get a live stock from a seller, you deprive it from a lot of its right for your own glorification. Lets be real.

Probably, I saved more fish than you ever raised in your life. Take a course in critical thinking and introduction of philosopy-it helps one thinks better. Why don't you go to blow the whistle in a fish market-they have so many rotten fish which could be properly treated? The reason is simple you eat them and thus you justify yourself of killing them. Let me restate, I do love my fish and my fish are not dying!!!!!!!!! Like my first SW tank is not unstable like you guys assume it's a sewer-it was a sewer from a former MR memeber!!!!!! NOT ME. Why do you guys have so much negative feelings towards a newbie here. Guys let me also state my experiments are not conducted in way that sickness or death would occur to the animals you loved-of course, the ones you don't like have to die, like the cyano or the red bug.....! All I did are experiments with sand alone and of course some bacteria. The bacteria died I know. In my experiments, they were no fish nor corals. You guys may have a kind heart not to hurt the fish but the outcome is still the same-they die in your tank bcause you don't know how to save them!!!!! You just don't tell anyone-hyprocrite.

Oh forgot to tell you, at one time my tank was over 300+ fish because they gave birth. I gave most of them away. They are going to be in the belly of other ones anyway if I don't do that so tell me you want them to be eaten or to be given away? Also, even reputatble distributors often has more than 51 fish in a 55G in terms of ratios, not to mention the breeders.

Following your logic of 51 fish in a 55G, my final take is that those who has a nice looking packed tank of corals are definately violators of mistreating animals too. Tell me how many corals each of you have in your tanks and have they sting each other once or twice.
 
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DRZL

**ROCKSTAR**
Location
Hillside NJ
Rating - 100%
13   0   0
Ive actually had my clowns spawn and gave the eggs away, thank you very much, and my cocoworm has jizzed more times than seemingly someone has.;)

We're all hypocrites in someways, but the extent drives the definition. Oh, and tell me where to go and I'll be glad to tell you where to go, Can you push that koi pond a little bit more to the right..thanks

BTW have u ever been in a cramped subway train? nice clean air, i bet you could also mate no problem right? BTW can I see a pic of this garden of eden and I'll show u mine :D
 
Location
Huntington
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The fact is that this is the fastest growing segment of the pet industry and since there is such a huge demand for all these "fish" there will always be someone looking for a faster and cheaper way to meet it. The only thing you can do is keep up with all the current information regarding our hobby and use it wisely. If you want to actively do something about it there are several organizations out there that are actively looking for ways and funds to help preserve reefs everywhere. They advertise in magazines and have websites. Seek out these outfits, research them, and figure out which is probably out to really help. It's one thing to point out a problem and tell everyone else about it, it's another to actually help with the solution. I tell people they can't have a certain fish or coral all the time. Most of the time it's appreciated and people tend to respect the honesty. Every so often you get someone that insists on being an idiot and those people you cannot help (they still don't get a fish though). Also, TR fish are widely available from several suppliers in mass numbers. I always order TR if it is available and will pass on wild specimens if the TR is available regardless of price. Instead of crying about how horrible our plight is and posting in forums information that has been repeated over and over again, go do something about it. If I had the money I would donate right now but all I can do so far is make sure I don't order any "offending" specimens ( I just started ordering from a new supplier that is entirely MAC approved and supplies ORA, the Shedd Aquarium, Sea World, etc. it's not cheap but would you rather spend $50 3 times or $80 once?). If everyone is so concerned put a fundraiser together or volunteer for some of these groups that are working towards legislation. Be part of the solution.
 
Location
Huntington
Rating - 100%
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Wingo I have no idea what you said but I'm pretty sure you managed to prove someones point other than your own. Bragging about having over 300 fish in your 55 is ridiculous. Trust me nobody here has confused your claims with a show of skill or the proper treatment of your fish. I think you need to find another hobby, maybe something involving power tools or heavy machinery that could potentially sterilize.
 
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jhale

ReefsMagazine!
Location
G.V NYC
Rating - 100%
52   0   0
I would gladly go to a store that says it's at least trying to get all certified MAC fish in. If you can tell me that then you will have a customer for life.

and stop bashing each other on this thread, it's about being as low impact on the reefs as possible, while still enjoying the hobby, as long as we can.
 
Rating - 99.1%
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jhale said:
and stop bashing each other on this thread,
I will stop bashing as long as others do not jump to conclusion and bash me again and again.

jhale said:
it's about being as low impact on the reefs as possible, while still enjoying the hobby, as long as we can.

I have been trying and hope doing it right
 
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jhale

ReefsMagazine!
Location
G.V NYC
Rating - 100%
52   0   0
WingoAgency said:
I will stop bashing as long as others do not jump to conclusion bash me again and again.

that's fair enough, now back to saving the reefs, and bashing the lfs that keep buying cyanide caught fish :smash:
 
Rating - 99.1%
225   2   0
Marineguy,

I agreed to you in some way but I did not try to brat about the capability of having 300+ fish. It's just a single breeding will do that. What I am trying to say is "51 in a 55G" is not an indication of anything. Since many people mistakenly think that there are rules in this number game-I try to show him a number "300+" and that the number "300+" means nothing-just like what you say-it does not mean much!


Jhale,

I still think the more effective way is government control. We could petition our concerns to the government and hopefully, our government will follow some other countries to ban certain activities in the collection of certain animals by banning imports of those that are "inhumanely caught"
 
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