- Location
- Huntington
Cyanide isn't as prolific as you would think. It's easy to tell the cyanide fish from the rest. It's outlawed pretty much everywhere now except the phillipines. Most of the wholesaler I know don't order phillipine fish anyway.
Reality of Fish Collection
- Thread starter IconicAquariums
- Start date
- Location
- Howell, NJ
let stay :backtotop thanks...
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- Location
- Flushing NY 11355
Sorry for hijacking so long.
- Location
- Brooklyn, NY
Sorry LFS, but that is just not true. Indonesia is now worse than the Phillipines in terms of cyanide use ( handling may be better) and between the 2 , account for the vast majority of fish collected for trade. There have always been easy to catch species that are clean, and there are clean collectors in both locales, and other locales ( Red Sea , Fiji, Marshalls, Vanuatu etc.) are clean too, but this is unfortunately the minority of livestock imported. The number of Net trained divers in these areas is small, and the supply of proper netting is even worse.
Let's remember too, that cynanide is not necessarily a death sentence for the fish that survives capture, the rigors of shipping etc.. but it surely is for the habitiat in which the fish was caught.
Legal or not, cyanide use is still widespread and to think otherwise is folly.
Randy
Let's remember too, that cynanide is not necessarily a death sentence for the fish that survives capture, the rigors of shipping etc.. but it surely is for the habitiat in which the fish was caught.
Legal or not, cyanide use is still widespread and to think otherwise is folly.
Randy
- Location
- Brooklyn, NY
Btw, it is illegal in the Phillipines too. Enforcement is another story. RD
- Location
- Brooklyn, NY
Also, I applaud your attempt to stock only responsibly caught/TR species. I'd love to see a stock list of MAC certified fish... I was under the impression, that despite their efforts the supply was very limited, that they are bailing on the Phillipines, struggling in Indo and claiming sucess in other locations that were never cyanide areas to begin with. Also, in order to receive MAC fish, don't you have to be a MAC certified store, or can a MAC wholslaer sell their fish to anyone who wants them? If the later is true, can't anyone just claim their fish are MAC certified ( I'm not accussing you).
If it is not true, then there are only 4-5 MAC certified stores in the whole country the last time I looked. Randy
If it is not true, then there are only 4-5 MAC certified stores in the whole country the last time I looked. Randy
To be MAC certified you need to buy from a MAC certified wholesale who bought from a MAC collector. Then you need to hold on to the fish for one week before putting a MAC certified sticker on them.
You would also need to report when and what fish die
When and what fish sell
How much you feed them and what you feed them
How often you do water changes
How large of a water change
What medications you use
and you need to test your water and report that as well
Plus they have membership fees
This is also from my memory when I was speaking with them like 2 or 3 years ago
You would also need to report when and what fish die
When and what fish sell
How much you feed them and what you feed them
How often you do water changes
How large of a water change
What medications you use
and you need to test your water and report that as well
Plus they have membership fees
This is also from my memory when I was speaking with them like 2 or 3 years ago
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well I'm ignorant 
I thought it just dealt with the capture of the fish, I did not know it extended to the retail level.
I see the idea behind it, to keep the fish from capture to sale healthy and well kept for. but damn that's a lot of paper work for a store owner to deal with. I bet the ones that would take care of the fish that well do not have the time to devote to all that recording, and the larger stores that treat the animals like crap do have the time and employees to do the reporting. that's sad.
I thought it just dealt with the capture of the fish, I did not know it extended to the retail level.I see the idea behind it, to keep the fish from capture to sale healthy and well kept for. but damn that's a lot of paper work for a store owner to deal with. I bet the ones that would take care of the fish that well do not have the time to devote to all that recording, and the larger stores that treat the animals like crap do have the time and employees to do the reporting. that's sad.
Hey guys,
I think that while MACs aims are good I think their approach leaves something to be desired. I think the key is to make people see the value in paying more for a fish. I know we already spend a lot of money on things but just look at what perceptions have done to spending.
Look at how much we spend on skimmers and lighting. What are we really paying for? Perception is that these items are crucial to successful reefkeeping, and they command a premium for that.
I would pay more for a MAC certified fish/store QT'ed fish because I feel that a healthy fish supply is essential to keeping a healthy population. I understand that some folks feel that QT is the responsibility of the hobbiest, and I don't disagree, but there are still stores that QT all of their fish for 2 weeks.
The perception is they make sure the fish are healthy before they sell them and they can charge a lot more money. I would pay double for a store qt'ed fish, if I felt I could trust them.
This is the direction stores should be going in. Otherwise it is a losing position. A LFS cannot win on price points. They need to up their game and find another formula.
It would be better for collection as well because LFS would have more courage to purchase the more expensive livestock and eventually weed out lower cost risky providers or force them to provide healthier fish.
Just my take,
E
I think that while MACs aims are good I think their approach leaves something to be desired. I think the key is to make people see the value in paying more for a fish. I know we already spend a lot of money on things but just look at what perceptions have done to spending.
Look at how much we spend on skimmers and lighting. What are we really paying for? Perception is that these items are crucial to successful reefkeeping, and they command a premium for that.
I would pay more for a MAC certified fish/store QT'ed fish because I feel that a healthy fish supply is essential to keeping a healthy population. I understand that some folks feel that QT is the responsibility of the hobbiest, and I don't disagree, but there are still stores that QT all of their fish for 2 weeks.
The perception is they make sure the fish are healthy before they sell them and they can charge a lot more money. I would pay double for a store qt'ed fish, if I felt I could trust them.
This is the direction stores should be going in. Otherwise it is a losing position. A LFS cannot win on price points. They need to up their game and find another formula.
It would be better for collection as well because LFS would have more courage to purchase the more expensive livestock and eventually weed out lower cost risky providers or force them to provide healthier fish.
Just my take,
E
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I'm glad to see this thread isn't dead just yet. I can't help but notice that the person who started the thread has provided very little info on how to make any changes. Was this just a way to say "buy LS form me because everyone else gets there LS from people who mistreat them."?
MAC certified... Not to steal a line from "Tommy Boy", but I can crap in a box and call it MAC certified and all you've got is a certified piece of crap. How do we know? Take the LFS word for it? I'd be more likely to believe a shark that said he's never eaten a fish.
Overall, what I see going on is the guys picking fruit off the trees are being blamed for all the problems while those who are deforesting sit back and watch. There are a lot of guys on this site who dive, myself being one of them. Those hotels we stay at in these choice dive spots dump more **** into the ocean and destroy more reefs than everyone on this board ever could in a lifetime of tanks. Not to mention golf courses, farms... you get the idea. We've become scapegoats. I'm not saying we're innocent and we aren't damaging the ocean, but a hobby will never cause the damage industry does. It's like 100 guys who fly remote control airplanes being blamed for air and noise pollution outside of JFK.
You want to save the reefs? Why not go back to what this board really was only 1 year ago? A place where you can go and talk with local hobbyists. Meet them, drink with them, trade LS or buy from eachother very cheap. I'm not talking about vendors here. They have a business to run. I'm talking about the guys who complain about LFS prices and then try to sell you a zoanthid colony with 5 polyps for $35. Nickle and diming guys who want low prices on everything and sell their own LS at LFS prices. Buying used products off of one site and comming here trying to sell it for a profit. Or those who are setting up frag tanks as an "investment". Please. The site has become a place for hobbyists to find other hobbyists to finance their hobby. This is a HOBBY guys. A web site primarily for HOBBYISTS. This has become a businessman's site. You know the guys who give a damn about saving reefs by how much they sell their LS for. As far as I can see it, there are only a few. The rest have been blinded by the dollar just like the LFS who jack prices and call it "MAC Certified".
Any of you sharp shooters can look back and see what I've sold LS for. LR at $1 a pound. A trupmhet coral whose skeleton alone was the size of a softball for $20. Acro frags @ 2" for $15, plus what I give away. I do this because that is what other members here have done for me. I know I've gone way off topic here, but I think this needed to be said.
MAC certified... Not to steal a line from "Tommy Boy", but I can crap in a box and call it MAC certified and all you've got is a certified piece of crap. How do we know? Take the LFS word for it? I'd be more likely to believe a shark that said he's never eaten a fish.
Overall, what I see going on is the guys picking fruit off the trees are being blamed for all the problems while those who are deforesting sit back and watch. There are a lot of guys on this site who dive, myself being one of them. Those hotels we stay at in these choice dive spots dump more **** into the ocean and destroy more reefs than everyone on this board ever could in a lifetime of tanks. Not to mention golf courses, farms... you get the idea. We've become scapegoats. I'm not saying we're innocent and we aren't damaging the ocean, but a hobby will never cause the damage industry does. It's like 100 guys who fly remote control airplanes being blamed for air and noise pollution outside of JFK.
You want to save the reefs? Why not go back to what this board really was only 1 year ago? A place where you can go and talk with local hobbyists. Meet them, drink with them, trade LS or buy from eachother very cheap. I'm not talking about vendors here. They have a business to run. I'm talking about the guys who complain about LFS prices and then try to sell you a zoanthid colony with 5 polyps for $35. Nickle and diming guys who want low prices on everything and sell their own LS at LFS prices. Buying used products off of one site and comming here trying to sell it for a profit. Or those who are setting up frag tanks as an "investment". Please. The site has become a place for hobbyists to find other hobbyists to finance their hobby. This is a HOBBY guys. A web site primarily for HOBBYISTS. This has become a businessman's site. You know the guys who give a damn about saving reefs by how much they sell their LS for. As far as I can see it, there are only a few. The rest have been blinded by the dollar just like the LFS who jack prices and call it "MAC Certified".
Any of you sharp shooters can look back and see what I've sold LS for. LR at $1 a pound. A trupmhet coral whose skeleton alone was the size of a softball for $20. Acro frags @ 2" for $15, plus what I give away. I do this because that is what other members here have done for me. I know I've gone way off topic here, but I think this needed to be said.
Chris,
I feel you man. I do feel like a LFS close to me is helpful though and if they need to charge higher prices to survive I can live with that, even appreciate it. You are absolutely correct though, the sniping and terrible conduct from certain people, is disappointing. I think also some people are inflexible about change and feel threatened by lower cost alternatives, so instead of adapting, they attack. Very unfortunate.
On topic: If I trusted the LFS, I would buy into MAC, though.
E
I feel you man. I do feel like a LFS close to me is helpful though and if they need to charge higher prices to survive I can live with that, even appreciate it. You are absolutely correct though, the sniping and terrible conduct from certain people, is disappointing. I think also some people are inflexible about change and feel threatened by lower cost alternatives, so instead of adapting, they attack. Very unfortunate.
On topic: If I trusted the LFS, I would buy into MAC, though.
E
stepping OT to touch on what Chris said, we (at the site) will be taking steps soon to correct what we feel to be a over commercialization of the site. vendors will still be allowed and encouraged but it will be under a different format.
okay back on point.
okay back on point.
chris288 said:
joetbs has iterated several times that he doesn't have the solutions, but wanted to raise awareness. He's obviously accomplished that. It's unfair to speculate he had might have had other "agendas", simply because he doesn't provide options for change.
Deanos:
Page 7 Quote #64 by Ezee:
I just spoke with one of my fish suppliers, Deepwater, he said he only orders from Sea Dwelling Creatures and Pacific Aquafarms. So that should put him on the good to go list, right?
Page 7 Quote #67 by Joetbs
E, I'm not putting him in one category or another. I'd rather not get involved w/ that.
While that was not necessarily a bash, anyone can read between the lines of that one.
Not to mention his other bashes on FT. Don't get me wrong, FT is an easy target and we've all bashed them before. He has done his job at raising awareness, but I'm not the only one who has replied to this thread feeling that there is a POSSIBILITY of promoting ones agenda.
Page 7 Quote #64 by Ezee:
I just spoke with one of my fish suppliers, Deepwater, he said he only orders from Sea Dwelling Creatures and Pacific Aquafarms. So that should put him on the good to go list, right?
Page 7 Quote #67 by Joetbs
E, I'm not putting him in one category or another. I'd rather not get involved w/ that.
While that was not necessarily a bash, anyone can read between the lines of that one.
Not to mention his other bashes on FT. Don't get me wrong, FT is an easy target and we've all bashed them before. He has done his job at raising awareness, but I'm not the only one who has replied to this thread feeling that there is a POSSIBILITY of promoting ones agenda.
I'm sorry I went off topic. I just feel the way I did when I put my first thread up on the topic. Awareness... great, people are aware that 3 tangs shouldn't be kept in a 46 gallon, but do it anyway. Just because an animal is mishandled during capture doesn't necessarily mean that it is doomed in the aquarium. Good husbandry will go a long way and that is one of the things we can change here. As for the vendor thing and guys who are trying to get other memebers to pay for their hobby, I was just venting because it is a pretty big shift from what this site was a short time ago. And if you really care about the hobby, worry about getting yor specimens into the right home, not to the guy who wants to give you the most money. Some here are no better and no more honest than the LFS who jacks prices.
- Location
- Brooklyn, NY
We are beginning to conflate a lot of issues here:
1) Cyanide/clean fish sources/MAC etc.
2) responsible handling of livestock beyond capture
3) personal responsibility
4) commercialization of the site
It is getting hard to tease all this out.
Sean,
You are right as far as the MAC process goes. But what I don't think people realize is that even MAC certified facilities ( Wholesale and retail) DON'T carry exclusively or even primarily MAC certified net caught fish. There aren't anywhere near enough collected to support these wholesalers. Some may also get livestock from other net caught operations or areas and I do think these facilities tend to HANDLE their fish much better and are far more likely to provide a better product to the consumer, but that is not the same thing as saying that I buy from a MAC certified wholesaler therefore all my fish are net caught. These stores and wholesalers are supposed to keep MAC fish seperate and track them as Sean describes. How many do? I don't know? I'm not accussing anyone here--- but these are the realities of the industry and we as consumers should understand them as best we can.
Randy
1) Cyanide/clean fish sources/MAC etc.
2) responsible handling of livestock beyond capture
3) personal responsibility
4) commercialization of the site
It is getting hard to tease all this out.
Sean,
You are right as far as the MAC process goes. But what I don't think people realize is that even MAC certified facilities ( Wholesale and retail) DON'T carry exclusively or even primarily MAC certified net caught fish. There aren't anywhere near enough collected to support these wholesalers. Some may also get livestock from other net caught operations or areas and I do think these facilities tend to HANDLE their fish much better and are far more likely to provide a better product to the consumer, but that is not the same thing as saying that I buy from a MAC certified wholesaler therefore all my fish are net caught. These stores and wholesalers are supposed to keep MAC fish seperate and track them as Sean describes. How many do? I don't know? I'm not accussing anyone here--- but these are the realities of the industry and we as consumers should understand them as best we can.
Randy
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