Where should we apply pressure?

[mkirda]

I think this is the key question, and should be open to discussion...

1) Education for the US market, for the consumer and end-hobbyist.
2) Conversion of the collectors to nets.

Where do you think we should concentrate our efforts?

There is no right or wrong answer. I think. :lol:

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[MaryHM]

As someone who has persued option number 1 for many years with little real change to see for it, I vote for option 2. It doesn't do any good to educate people about the problem if you can't offer them an alternative. Train the collectors and give them the nets, then we will have 100% net caught fish for everyone. And the US industry and public can swim in their ignorance and apathy all day long and it won't even matter anymore.

 

[naesco]

Neither.
We need industry to understand that if they continue to close their eyes to their participation in the cyanide trade, the government will become involved stateside.
At the best this would mean additional costs for, CDT which they would pay, providing a paper trail and a serious restriction on the import of certain species from certain countries.

At the worst it would mean an outright ban on the import of rock, sand coral and fish which would put them out of business.

Wake up industry before you lose your livlihood

 

[MaryHM]

Naesco, I have to ask. Why in the world do you think that threatening the industry with the potential of government intevention (which may or may not ever happen) is more important than training divers?

 

[spawner]

Both,

Hobbyist must be brought into the light about this issue and then they must be able to purchase an alternative to the problem. How do you keep dishonest retailers and etailers from lying to hobbyist?

andy

 

[clarionreef]

Spawner,
Geez, I doubt if you can keep " dishonest retailers and e-tailers" from lying to the hobbyists. Thats what makes em ...er...dishonest!
Steve

 

[naesco]

Naesco, I have to ask. Why in the world do you think that threatening the industry with the potential of government intevention (which may or may not ever happen) is more important than training divers?

The poster had two options.
The third is educating industry.
No one can argue with the first two but changing industry`s present dont give a **** attitude is the key. Saving their livlihood is the reward.
Does this help?

 

[MaryHM]

Ok. So we focus our energies on educating the industry. Say we're really good at it, and everyone is educated in five years. But we still have a problem- lack of trained collectors!! Training is where the focus needs to be. Education is too ambiguous- just because someone knows something doesn't mean they change their ways. But if all the collectors are only provided net caught fish, the industry doesn't have to change their ways- it will have been done for them.

 

[flameangel1]

Hobbyist must be brought into the light about this issue and then they must be able to purchase an alternative to the problem. How do you keep dishonest retailers and etailers

Question here-- if someone goes into a building supply store to buy lumber to build a house, is it the responsibility of the owner of that store to teach that person HOW to build that house ????
All retailers are NOT dishonest, and some of us teach every single newbie that comes in and try to educate any and all who will listen.
But, I find it very frustrating that the hobbyist cant/doesnt try to learn on their own . It is my job to spend hours with them in person and hours on the phone/e-mail etc, to educate them.
Where is the responsibility of the hobbyist ????
Reading the hobbyists posts on these forums, they expect us to educate them on everything, and blame us if they didnt get the years of learning that we have, in the time they permit us when stopping into our stores .
The information is out there-we found it--why doesnt the hobbyist take the time to find it also ???

 

[Kalkbreath]

{Picture me as a 100 year old wise man {Cherokee Indian accent} ............"How bout paleface wholesalers not buy fish from cyanide country?"......"problem go away"............"Public educated about cigarette smoking every day" ........"still buy smokes?".....{indian takes a draw from his peace pipe} then asks....."Public see crashed cars everyday......still drive 40% over speed limit{even in driveway}"........ " Public see 60% of people very overweight.......makes public hungry?"..........."when child ,public sad ......,own mother and father divorce " ......."when public have own family public divorce twice or three times......? "Chief thinks paleface........over estimate the idea of educate"......"public"...........{Then the indian gets very quite......and in a soft .....almost child like voice} ....."Indians long time ago ......teach and educate public."..................... indians teach the value of the land and the importance of nature............public take land from Indian.........and then public steal the land from nature.........................[Cheif,looks down at his reflection in the lake ........ now looking back on his 100 years of life. {cheif has tear welling up in left eye} This great man is not sad for himself or for his people ...............for this great spirit really is a wise man .............he is sad for the land..........and sad that he was not wise enough.....not until now {too late} to have understood that education ......does not equal wisdom

 

[flameangel1]

Kalk,
That was a beautiful post !!!
Thank you ( really felt those words )

 

[MaryHM]

Ok. There must be something really weird going on. I disagree with Mike Kirda not once, but TWICE yesterday and now I'm agreeing with Kalk?? Someone hand me some medication....

 

[clarionreef]

Kalk,
That "waiting for public education to kick in" post just redeemed your last 10.
Thank you, Steve

 

[JennM]

OMG *I* am agreeing with Kalk -- Mary, pass the meds FAST! 8O

Naesco -- oh, Naesco, that socialist Canadian attitude that the "government" will take care of it all.... that notion that the government will take care of you from cradle to grave does NOT prevail here in the United States. Perhaps the Canadian government will step in (and God help you all, if they do!), but here in the US, folks want the government OUT of their business.

I agree with Judy that the end-user is ultimately responsible, but as Jeff aptly, and visually pointed out, people just don't want to know. So, we who do know, will need to do whatever we can to turn it around - not some dude in a suit who doesn't know a tang from a goby.

Jenn

 

[clarionreef]

Dennis Miller,
...had a joke about..."I don't know bout you, but when I'm on a train, I don't want to see that cord where the general public has access to the brake cable."

The conscientious public is often sensitive to the constructive criticism of the lay public in general. They should not be.
If whistleblowers come from inside the ranks of an industry, it is indicative of a healthy system of Democracy and freedom. There should not be such anomalies to blow the whistles on. The public in general rarely has the opportunity to see what commercial professionals see. Consider for a moment, that not all commercial professionals leave their convictions at the door when they clock in for work. Consider if you will, waiting for the support of the masses before making a move.
Bold initiatives are often damaging to the initiator...like being a point man in wartime. But, hey, someones got to do it.
If such cowardice and restraint were the rule, we'd all be speaking with a British accent right now...or at least sound funny like the Canadians.
Steve
PS Freedom of speech means getting it wrong sometimes.
But its a greater wrong not to tolerate it.

 

[spawner]

Flame,

I am not saying that we should hold their hands, all I am saying is that for those newbies that really care about doing the right thing (can't do anything about the ones that don't care) they should be informed about the issue. They shouldn't have to search for it, it should be everywhere they look. I have suggested in the past that the large supply companies i.e. Aquarium Systems put labels on their bags of salt and inside their heaters and filters, explaining what is going on. Many people would do the right thing if they knew what to do. When I was selling fish I had those customers that didn't want to learn or read a book, those are lost, but those that wanted to read and learn are the ones that must be educated. That is why I think that all sides of this issue must be address at the same time. The fixing the problem is going to take changing the way the fish are collected, that would end the problem, but until people are willing to pay a bit extra for clean fish the problem will never go away. That is why I ask the question can we do anything about the dishonest false and misleading claims. Every time someone buys that "drug free" that is not drug free we are set back. Until enough people are willing to pay a bit more and stop buying "cheap" fish, drugged fish will always out compete clean ones, cause dishonest, greedy people will sale them to unexpecting or uncaring hobbyists. All I am sayings attack the problem on all fronts. It would be nice to see one article a month in every mag. and flyers in every filter box and every bag of salt explaining the problem, for those who wish to read and learn. At the same time train collectors how to use nets and find some way to make it more profitable to use a net instead of drugs. As soon as they can make a better living doing it right the quicker the problem will end.

andy

 

[Anonymous]

I think the pressure should be applied to the wholsalers. Not because they are the only ones who need to improve, but because they are the highest up the chain of custody that we have legal jurisdiction over.

 

[flameangel1]

Hi Andy,,
on this

(can't do anything about the ones that don't care)

It does not matter if they come in careing or not caring--they WILL get the information from me, and end up either caring and doing business with me, or not caring and not doing business with me.
I will not work with anyone who does not care and this is where it works when one owns the shop. We work harder , but can be more selective.
A good ,caring and loyal clientele is worth far more than walk-ins who dont care about anything but "cheap". and even better is that they then spread the word to others !!!!
Like a ripple effect.

 

[flameangel1]

Also, yes, it would be a fantastic idea if the big companies would , for example, have a copy of Marys cyanide report from her website, on each and every product.
This would go a long way to have the hobbyists be aware.
Excellant idea, Andy-- wonder if that would be something we could work on. Or AMDA could.

 

[clarionreef]

Pressure applied to wholesalers??
Geez, don't I wish! But seriously, if there were that much demand and "put your money where your mouth is" concern for netcaught fish, I think I would've had a busier day.
Steve,
Cortez Marine