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MaryHM

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I am already paying more for net caught fish. Sometimes the quality is there, and sometimes it isn't. I'm willing to pay the 10%-20% more that I'm paying now, but no more until the quality issues are all solved. It's already practically impossible to sell net caught fish (I don't even put that notation on my stocklist anymore). I'm not going to lose any more money until the quality concerns are fixed. Yes, the collectors are poor, but if I'm out of business then what good does that do them?

Say let's implement the idea of a 100% price increase only to the net caught collectores- and let's do it today. My fish will now be approximately 25% more expensive than all of the big boys (whom I already have an impossible task of competing with on fish). Oh yeah, that's going to do a lot of good. Then I won't sell ANY fish. What's 100% of zero, folks??

Again, it's ignorance of the industry that leads people to believe that a 100-500% increase to the divers would ever happen at this point. It's not going to happen, so it's really a waste of time to discuss it. I do support a 10%-20% increase for the collectors. More once all of the quality concerns are solved.
 
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Anonymous

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after all, which is cheaper, 2-3 $20 coral beauties, or one at $50?

this only addresses the immediate cost to the ignorant consumers wallet

if i had to pay $50 for a beautiful fish that i would enjoy for years at home, $50 would be cheap as dirt-even if looking only at the daily cost of the fish :wink:


i must say i have to laugh at the whole hobbyist side of this 'argument'

people will pay, even after 'cutting corners' thousands on a reef tank/fo tank, but will beeyotch and moan and whine over $10-20 extra for the animals they're shelling out the big bucks for to care for them

come on!

screw the hobbyists- :P

anyone who doesn't think an animal they will enjoy for years,is worth spending some money on for superior quality- doesn't deserve to be given the chance to keep that animal(not to even mention the tacit abetting of environmental destruction that they contribute to by buying the fish in the first place :wink: )

shame on us all :(


fish are not shoes :?
 
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Anonymous

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MaryHM":2j8klx6k said:
Say let's implement the idea of a 100% price increase only to the net caught collectores- and let's do it today. My fish will now be approximately 25% more expensive than all of the big boys (whom I already have an impossible task of competing with on fish). Oh yeah, that's going to do a lot of good. Then I won't sell ANY fish. What's 100% of zero, folks??

Again, it's ignorance of the industry that leads people to believe that a 100-500% increase to the divers would ever happen at this point. It's not going to happen, so it's really a waste of time to discuss it. I do support a 10%-20% increase for the collectors. More once all of the quality concerns are solved.

Okay, I'll plead my ignorance regarding the import business and stick my chin out for a left cross...

Does an additional $0.30 really result in your fish bing 25% more expensive? Were they 24% more prior to spending the additional $0.30? Is it impossible to pay the collectors more without the exporter expecting a cut?

I don't understand the math, I guess. Can you help me out on the details?

Thanks,
-Lee
 

John_Brandt

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Nobody has mentioned the enormous boost in profits that happens at every link in the chain when mortalities plummet because of drug-free collecting and proper handling.

We've been told of the realities of cyanide fishing. I've heard that 30% of the fish die right on the spot after being squirted. I've heard that another 30% are going to die within a day of capture with cyanide. If all that death goes away with a conversion to nets, then the fishers are going to have a lot more healthy fish on their hands to sell. Or, they can drastically reduce the amount of time per day that they fish, leaving time available for other pursuits of income.

All of this occurs with no increase in prices, yes?
 

MaryHM

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No, you can't expect an exporter to pay more for a fish without taking a cut- especially with the percentages you all are talking about.

I don't know the exact amount an exporter pays for a fish, but let's use hypotheticals and stick with the Coral Beauty. A quick peek at a non-net caught supply vs. my supplier shows that I'm paying about 29% more already. I can't get volumes of net caught fish, so I take a huge hit on freight (having to pay a higher price per kg by not meeting a 500kg freight break limit). I have to pay the same amount of clearance (about $300) on 10 boxes that my competitors pay on 50 boxes. That increases my costs over my competitors even more. I already have a hard time selling net caught fish that are about 10%-20% more to my retail customers. If I had to increase it even more, it would be the end of my importing net caught fish and I'd have to go back to only corals. What good does that do the net collectors at this stage in the game?

Get me consistent quality net caught fish. Get me a fair playing field where everyone has to bring in net caught. Then I can pay quite a bit more for the fish. Until then, it would be the ruin of my fish business.
 

John_Brandt

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MaryHM":n11b0ads said:
John,

How many shipments of net caught fish have you witnessed coming into an import facility?

None. I witnessed a shipment of MAC Certified fish arriving at an exporter in Manila.

I have worked with shipments from Cortez Handcaught Marines off-and-on since 1983.
 
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MaryHM":19zirmlw said:
No, you can't expect an exporter to pay more for a fish without taking a cut- especially with the percentages you all are talking about.

Thank you for the clarification. It isn't the $0.30 that is the deal killer it is the mark up on the $0.30. Why in the world can't we get even $0.06 more/fish (20% more to the collector) into the collectors hands without it killing the end hobbyist with a major price hike? Seems like a deal could be worked with a good exporter (Aquarium Habitat, for instance) to get a little more money into the bonafied net collectors hands without the exporter marking it up. If purchasing fish from the collectors is at all competitive the exporter should be able to get more market share if they are able pay even $0.06 more/fish than their competition. More $$$=more people that want to sell you their fish.

-Lee
 
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John_Brandt":mwoq4mmq said:
MaryHM":mwoq4mmq said:
John,

How many shipments of net caught fish have you witnessed coming into an import facility?

None. I witnessed a shipment of MAC Certified fish arriving at an exporter in Manila.

I have worked with shipments from Cortez Handcaught Marines off-and-on since 1983.


any idea how they were caught? :P
 

MaryHM

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My point was that just because a fish is net caught doesn't necessarily mean a lower mortality. Therefore, until the issues of handling are addressed and corrected, your idea one gets higher profits from the lower mortalties of net caught fish is not exactly correct.
 

MaryHM

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I agree with you somewhat Lee, but the good exporters, like Habitat, are struggling to survive as it is. They can't significantly increase their overhead (cost of goods sold) without realizing some additional profit for it. After all, they would then be absorbing mortalities for an even higher priced fish.

More $$$=more people that want to sell you their fish.

This is also true...More $$$= less people that want to buy your fish
 

John_Brandt

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MaryHM":uen1v4fg said:
My point was that just because a fish is net caught doesn't necessarily mean a lower mortality. Therefore, until the issues of handling are addressed and corrected, your idea one gets higher profits from the lower mortalties of net caught fish is not exactly correct.

My scenario of reduced mortalities boosts profits under any scenario, especially if you consider 'time = money'. For every fish that dies, some fisher has to go back out to the reef to catch a replacement. This is the only way to keep the "inventory pipeline" full. You can only sell live fish.

The less time a fisher spends catching fish for income, is time he can spend on something else.
 

clarionreef

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People,
The end mark=up price to the consumer triples when it leaves the importers hands. 2/3 rds of the price is determined in the community YOU live in, ie. Ottawa, Chicago, Tulsa whereever.
The other 1/3 is where all the effort to bring it to America is including frieght, the "profit" of importers and exporters and diver price.
Exporters hope for deals but generally must pay diver market rates. Divers don't hope for or imagine free-money windfalls, they hope to get paid for everything as soon as possible and return to their village.
Competetion drives down prices and the lack of it allows them to rise. It just depends on what your catching. If your catching the same ol thing everyones else is ie. coral beauties, you don't have much leverage to bargain with. If you come from an area w/ more coveted fish, there is leverage and they do use it.
The shock and awe professed over the first price juxtaposed to the end price works out pretty similar with corn flakes, coral, sugar, cardinal tetras, bananas and gasoline.
The corn from a box of flakes gets a nickel to the poor farmer. Now theres a cause close to home!
The more removed the origin of the product the more outrage there can be I guess...but it takes more than empathy and good intentions to advance social and economic justice.
Capitalism with a human face does exist but is hardly supported by the good people in the market country...least of all on purely humanitarian grounds. All of you of course drink coffee from Nicaraguas cooperative, fair trade coffee farmers right?
Hey, I'm the most leftist and humanist importer you'll ever see and I have no money to prove it! I work hard at finding fish not to buy to avoid tainting the customer with the wrong fish. He works hard finding the cheapest special and the cheapest lot price he can...sometimes we meet in the middle and a sale breaks out.
Social justice, environmental sustainability, the aquarium trade? Can you say it three times with a straight face?
Coral beauties are brought in from the diver, the broker, the exporter, the airlines, the customs process and sold to your local retailer for a tight and super competitive 8 or 9 dollars? Somewhere rent, electricity, payroll, insurance and taxes are paid. The attrition rate in this business is high. Its not a good business at all.
What the mark up in your local store is depends on his list of bills and concerns and with the new big ticket petstore chain down the street and the beloved e-tailers on the net sellin em for 18.99.
I want out of this non profit business. I want to work for a 'non profit' organization. Thats where the real money is. You also don't have work nearly as hard [ only 8 hour days!] , don't have to know anything about fish and get paid automatically for so little productivity. Compared to this, It'll be like working part time!
Yes there is injustice in this...every step of the way.
Sincerely, Steve
Cortez Marine
 

MaryHM

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My scenario of reduced mortalities boosts profits under any scenario, especially if you consider 'time = money'.

How does it boost profits under the scenario of importers receiving DEAD net caught fish because of poor handling?? Dead fish=loss of profit.
 

John_Brandt

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cortez marine":1ctb88eo said:
I want to work for a 'non profit' organization. Thats where the real money is. You also don't have work nearly as hard [ only 8 hour days!] , don't have to know anything about fish and get paid automatically for so little productivity.

MAC Staff regularly work 12-14 hour days. They ain't paid hourly either :wink:
 

John_Brandt

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MaryHM":2g8kj6uz said:
My scenario of reduced mortalities boosts profits under any scenario, especially if you consider 'time = money'.

How does it boost profits under the scenario of importers receiving DEAD net caught fish because of poor handling?? Dead fish=loss of profit.

I said reductions in mortalities boost profits, not increases or status quo.
 

clarionreef

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John,
Retract that and give me a break.
That staff could not and does not. If they did we might have a little more to show for the effort.
The problem would be easy to solve with a fraction of that budget they spend..if only they knew how to do it right and spend it right!

Steve
 

MaryHM

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John,

I can only speak about the exporters that get my "big" PI fish orders. The ones that ONLY deal with net caught. They haven't had the years of experience handling and shipping fish that the supporters of the cyanide trade have enjoyed. So I see some shipments that are SPECTACULAR and some that are DISMAL. There is one PTFEA exporter that I deal with for non-cyanide target species fill in- invertebrates, gobies, etc... Extremely low mortality. But I've never carried their angels/tangs/triggers so I can't compare the two. You get dinged if you only want to support net caught only exporters- you pay more, you have way less variety, way less availability, and the potential of disastrous shipments due to lack of experience.
 

Nancy Swart

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Thanks, Lee, for more clearly explaining what I was trying to say. :) How do we pass an extra .30 down at the collector level only?

NS
 

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