MAC Certified Cultured Live Rock

[clarionreef]

Hobbyists and retailers are not trying to figure out who to support.
Nor is there some moral imperative in any search for truth by this august body.
They are no more looking to support sustainable practices then how to spell sustainable practices.
They are no more losing sleep over the eco-ethical concerns mentioned any more then K-Mart shoppers or Walmart shoppers are.
You guys I must say respectfully are off base.
10,000 miles off base.
This thing must turn on Filipino reasons...for Filipino benefit and under improved Filipino law, enforcement and cultural notions....and not non evolving market reasons in the West.
MAC fell into this trap and were warned about it.
Relying...no depending... on your ability to touch the American soul on this and engineer mass market demand for clean, well done fish is sheer folley. You do not know the very soil upon which you tread.
Perhaps Gandhi touched the hearts of the British and made them ashamed of themselves in their support for forcing foreign made textiles on the poor Indians....but that was Gandhi...a man of 100 times more courage, strategic intelligence and integrity then anyone here.
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

Thales,

Point well taken. What I meant however, was that all too often, even when given a choice, the hobbyist will buy the cheaper fish...... When I was selling MAC certified fish, I really had to "sell" the hobbyist on the reasons to purchase that fish over the "cheaper ones" across town... I was pretty successful at that, however, many still bought the "cheaper fish"....

Another point you're right on with is: "There is currently no way to tell who to support."

Mark

I know what you mean Mark. Which is why I think hoping the hobbyists will make the difference will never happen.

 

[Anonymous]

Hobbyists and retailers are not trying to figure out who to support.

They are no more looking to support sustainable practices then how to spell sustainable practices.
They are no more losing sleep over the eco-ethical concerns mentioned any more then K-Mart shoppers or Walmart shoppers are.

Some are Steve. I don't think that ignoring them helps anyone. I know a club that is still waiting for a practical proposal on how to help after getting presentations about the problems.

 

[clarionreef]

Rich,
We got in carpets invoiced as blue carpet anemones last nite from Bali.
They are greenish-brown with a few drops of blue in em.
When you say that some hobbyists care...[which I agree they do....]
I'm saying yes...but not enough to turn the carpet blue...ever.
Steve

 

[clarionreef]

and the best thing you and hobby groups could do would be to strengthen the netcaught vanguard in Bali because the system of appealling to conscience is not working.
. The netcaught village of Les is in desperate trouble because no one else will buy their fish but us.
They turned down money from MAC to anchor the MAC fish supply and they took a chance on the heart and the goodwill of the market place.
They actually believed that the Americans care.
The director came to the Marine Ornamentals conference in Hawaii to "meet the marketplace". He left w/ a grand of barier netting but few converts to the cause.
They need help, subsidy, some visits from BAR,[ or other clubs] and more good press for the good work they do in Bali.
All netcaught fish, coral farm, etc.
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

and the best thing you and hobby groups could do would be to strengthen the netcaught vanguard in Bali because the system of appealling to conscience is not working.
. The netcaught village of Les is in desperate trouble because no one else will buy their fish but us.
They turned down money from MAC so anchor the MAC fish supply and they took a chance on the heart and the goodwill of the market place.
They actually believed that the Americans care.
They need help, subsidy, some visits from BAR, and more good press for the good work they do in Bali.
All netcaught fish, coral farm, etc.
Steve

Someone needs to organize something Steve. Hint hint.

Otherwise, hobby groups have been burned too often, and then criticized for not having enough of the 'real' information to be able to have done the right thing. Because of this kind of history, clubs (well the clubs I know) are less willing to throw their money around without some good information.

Remember, all we know about Les Village is that you have said they are doing good - I have heard that before and you know how that turned out.
I hope to see you Friday, maybe we can talk more about this then because the club is looking for projects.

On a personal note, I offered to help with Les Villages 'net' presence a long time ago. No one has followed up with me about that.

 

[Anonymous]

Rich,
We got in carpets invoiced as blue carpet anemones last nite from Bali.
They are greenish-brown with a few drops of blue in em.
When you say that some hobbyists care...[which I agree they do....]
I'm saying yes...but not enough to turn the carpet blue...ever.
Steve

But some DO care and would like to help getting the ball rolling. Having that caring ignored or, worse yet, disparaged, makes it less likely anything will actually happen.
If you really think that the hobbyists that care will never make a difference, I think you should stop asking them for help. Otherwise, help them organize as to make a difference.

 

[clarionreef]

If the clubs [ local] I know best and with the most info can be brought around...then the beachhead of concern can be made and progress can flow from there.
When I say that hobbyists don't care I mean the PETCO/WALMART consuming mass figuratively..
Even from within clubs a frustration arises from the apathy within ...
One or two folks doing it all is a cliche w/ clubs.
When witnessing the glee and the passion for cheap frags, raffles and flea marketing of coral products one can see there is energy to tap.
The challenge is to tap it and not be put off by a failed endeavor once in awhile.
Afterall... MAC fails daily and still continues!
I propose a link to the only netcaught village by the consumer via the clubs [ BAR?] .
A path can be worn from the West coast to the village of Les where they have a coral farm on the beachfront in front of the guests cottage.[ which needs to be enlarged and enhanced].
Airfare to Bali is cheap compared to Tonga and it is an epicenter of much diversity.
AMDA sent me there years ago and its hard to forget their people power and potential to fulfill their destiny as the awakeners of Indonesia to sustainable practice.
Steve
PS They even collect yashi gobies now with the 1/6th inch mesh nets we got to them.

 

[mark@mac]

Hey,

Let's all pitch in and send Naesco to Les! :lol:

I consider myself very fortunate to have been able to visit the village of Les.... It is a beautiful place and the so are the people.

I have very fond memories of Les village, except for the fact that one of the collectors, a leader in the area died collecting only 3 days after I was there. His name was Bolot. He left behind a wife and 3 children.

I bring this incident up again to remind us all that this is life threatening work for the collectors who make so little at it.... They so need our help to succeed!

It seems to me that perhaps more exposure, maybe in the form of presentations, streaming video, highlight pics of collectable species,coniuously emphasizing the "net-caught" factor, etc. from Les and/or other net-collecting villages could be used to raise awareness and promote sales for these fishers.....

just some thoughts...

Mark

 

[clarionreef]

Mark,
They are wonderful folks are they not?
Do you know....did Bolot die on a longrange trip?

They have a little tourist business based on the beachfront coral farm, a shower/bathroom and a little place to sleep for guests.
They make a little money from people wanting to insinuate themselves into their little fame and get some good press thru osmosis.
They have entertained a long line of whos who in the NGO trade, but they still hold onto their autonomy despite offers to sell out.
They still want to mainly sell their co-ops fish and inverts as livlihood and not milk the cow in the other way, besides some "eco"-tourism.
One guys was embarrassed that there was as much unauthorized coral growing on the coral platforms as the corals they planted...and should he scrape them off?
No I told him. That would mean that you grew the corals for outsiders and not for your own villages need for more coral cover...and subsequent fish production.
"But they grow under the platform!"...he said.
Great...whereever coral wants to grow...let it.

Rich, Jim, Gresham, Vitz, JT...you'd all have a blast there.
You could go with Wayne as he knows how to jive w/ the locals.
They have a 1/4 star "hotel" nearby.
Steve

 

[naesco]

Wayne,

How do you know what you saw was due to the MO industry?

The locals and the Kubo people told me.

Wayne

 

[naesco]

Public complicity and irresponsibility among all the rest of the players;

Actually if the huge fish buying public aquarium sector would join us....the cause would be futhered.
However, public aquariums are some of the worlds biggest supporters of the status quo ...AND EDUCATORS ON CONSERVATION.
Why should they get a free pass for all their mega subsidy of the cyanide trade?
Come on Wayne, quit preaching to the choir and get to work!
Steve

I am done with industry and am working to end the cyanide as best as I can directly through governements.
I have been asked here and by PMs to answer questions and sometimes a little background is necessary.

Thanks Steve

 

[naesco]

Hey,

Let's all pitch in and send Naesco to Les! :lol:

I consider myself very fortunate to have been able to visit the village of Les.... It is a beautiful place and the so are the people.

I have very fond memories of Les village, except for the fact that one of the collectors, a leader in the area died collecting only 3 days after I was there. His name was Bolot. He left behind a wife and 3 children.

I bring this incident up again to remind us all that this is life threatening work for the collectors who make so little at it.... They so need our help to succeed!

It seems to me that perhaps more exposure, maybe in the form of presentations, streaming video, highlight pics of collectable species,coniuously emphasizing the "net-caught" factor, etc. from Les and/or other net-collecting villages could be used to raise awareness and promote sales for these fishers.....

just some thoughts...

Mark

Thanks for the offer but I won't go they will kill me.

 

[Anonymous]

Wayne,

I think Jenn is right - you are dangerous because in your zeal you will prolly do more harm than good.
I think your heart might be in the right place, but I think basing your jihad on juice based on your one experience is not the best of ideas. I think you are lacking a comprehensive idea of what is actually going on on a meta level and are just shooting from the hip. What you are doing may get results similar to the banning of boa's in SF, the MO leopard shark laws and things like the 'vincent bill'. People all thought those things were good ideas too, but without a comprehensive understanding of the different parts of the industry they ended up being ineffective money wasters that hurt more than helped.

 

[clarionreef]

Wayne,
The villagers of Les are Hindus and the gentlest folks you will ever meet.

The refusal to acknowledge the part of NGOs as well as public aquariums in the long history of the aquarium trade taints you as insincere.
If you cared, really cared, why duck from and hide from such issues?
Why not target the false prophets and phoney, money grubbing greens as well?
You pigeonhole the industry only but as a far more effective critic of it ...let me say that it is not united , not well represented and hardly of one mind.
Some of us in Industry educated you about all you know so that you may then turn and throw stones at... us all?
As in people, there are many kinds in this trade , not just a simplistic one kind.
The reform current in the aquarium world has been mostly sustained from within the industry...by a minority...not from without.

I might as well say all you guys in the hobby are out of touch, ecologically irresponsible, apparently helpless, careless, money grubbing, penny-pinchin, social misfits for refusing en-masse to abstain and boycott a trade in poisoned fishes....but I wouldn't paint them all with one brush and damn them all. [ well, many anyway]
Really Wayne, do not reformers have a difficult enough row to hoe without making us look radical, unreasonable and wild-eyed?
But, if you're done here...why not write a letter to the Packard puppet Congressman Ed Case.
Steve
He'll send you back a form letter retort....and he's gonna lose anyway.
Hes out of touch. I'll miss you. You make me seem more reasonable by contrast. Without you, I'll have to move closer to the center.

 

[Anonymous]

I propose a link to the only netcaught village by the consumer via the clubs [ BAR?] .
A path can be worn from the West coast to the village of Les where they have a coral farm on the beachfront in front of the guests cottage.[ which needs to be enlarged and enhanced].
Airfare to Bali is cheap compared to Tonga and it is an epicenter of much diversity.
Steve
PS They even collect yashi gobies now with the 1/6th inch mesh nets we got to them.

Sorry, but after offerring to donate over a grand to the Les cause, and NOTHING ever heard back from them, I'd have to say THEY DUG THEIR OWN GRAVE. I too offerred my support, both in time, and money. I even got my company to comitt to giving Les all the money for the Bungalo, but Ruwi and Co just can not get it together to even email me back. I'm sorry, but that just stinks. Needs to be enhanced, yup, burt first Ruwi needs to enhance his follow up skills.

 

[Anonymous]

Hey,

Let's all pitch in and send Naesco to Les! :lol:

I consider myself very fortunate to have been able to visit the village of Les.... It is a beautiful place and the so are the people.

I have very fond memories of Les village, except for the fact that one of the collectors, a leader in the area died collecting only 3 days after I was there. His name was Bolot. He left behind a wife and 3 children.

I bring this incident up again to remind us all that this is life threatening work for the collectors who make so little at it.... They so need our help to succeed!

It seems to me that perhaps more exposure, maybe in the form of presentations, streaming video, highlight pics of collectable species,coniuously emphasizing the "net-caught" factor, etc. from Les and/or other net-collecting villages could be used to raise awareness and promote sales for these fishers.....

just some thoughts...

Mark

Thanks for the offer but I won't go they will kill me.

Only if you killed a bunch of them first. You should try to learn about the country's your talking about, before jumping to such conclusions. They all aren't Muslums there, and the ones that are, practice a different version then the Jihadists for the most part One lousy bomb scares you? Do you jump when a car back fires?

 

[Tropic]

Jump? he craps his pants and hits the dirt! :lol:

The Balinese are some of the kindest, welcoming people on the planet bar none. I have only experienced this type of kindness in very rural areas in the USA where people will also help strangers just because.

I love Bali. Terrorism threats are minimal, and the IJ only targets specific tourista areas.

 

[Anonymous]

ps,

there are many, many beautiful dive sites all over the Philippines! especially in Palawan. Next trip, do a little more research to find out where to go if you want to see beautiful reefs...

8)

I visited PI about 5 years ago.
I thought I did a lot of research. I guess I didn't. I chose the place I visited because it was furthest from civilization and thus I figured would be the most natural. I met fisherman with the most primitive tools and homesites.

The people of the Philippines were the most friendliest people I have met in the world.
It is a tragedy what industry has done to their reefs.

I posted earlier that I fully expect the US government will exempt net caught fish provided the certifier (importer) certifies same. The responsible of ascertaining whether the fish were net caught will be on the certifier. If he has not shown reasonable due diligence in ascertaining the source of the fish he will meet the wrath of the law.

Mark when the axe falls you will be surprised how industry will fall in line.
They have invested hundreds of thousands of dollars in their operations.
The exporters will be climbing over each other to find net caught fishers and pay a fair price for their fish.
The wholesalers will abandon their cyanide partners and search out net caught exporters.
LFS will be burning their fingers dialing, trying to find net caught sources of fish, sources that they are ignoring today.

The greatest winner of an embargo on cyanide caught fish will be the fishers themselves.
They will get higher prices.
They will have healthier reefs which will attact more fish and other critters.
The beautiful thing is they get these reward starting the day after the axe falls.

Young people like yourself will have bountiful opportunities as stewards of the reefs working together with those who livelihood has been enriched by the total ban on cyanide.

As you can see this is a win-win situation. I believe the US Reef Task Force understands that is the case are are prepared to lower the boom.

Wayne



I

 

[clarionreef]

Gresham wrote;
"Sorry, but after offerring to donate over a grand to the Les cause, and NOTHING ever heard back from them,"
True..true..
Ruwi was NGO trained and used to thinking money was free and easy.
We are working on him and trying to convince him to work for a living and earn it.
Its a new idea to the NGO culture but I think the hard knocks he got are starting to take effect.
They ship 1% DOA, do great work, get better diversity now and have a new manager who is out of the loop on the previous events.
Ruwi is the new director of the Indo eco group Telapak, and has ceded control to the new folks and villagers.
Now, with no one in charge who expects money to rain from the goodwill of the infidels :lol: ....things have changed.
Steve
Ruwi is a secular Muslim and Les Village is all...Hindu. The mayor of the village and the community are taking more and more control.