Reality of Fish Collection

[cali_reef]

Pierce, not everyone is using cyanide. There are a small number of facilities that are truely net caught. But the problem lies with some of them that claim to be Net caught and in reality are using drugs.

I know who FT gets their fish from, and I know the fish from that collector are caught unethically. The sad part is that even high end stores get their fish from the same person, so it is really not much better since it is impossible to know.

No wholesaler is 100% MAC certified but there are some that are making strides. Places like Seacrop and Mary have a good agenda and a strong campaign for ensuring healthy fish and promoting ethics. Fish can be labeled as MAC certified, but I have never seen any first hand. I think many people do not know what it is and are blind to the fact it exists. Unfortunately, with the LFS, it goes back to the bottom line is the dollar sign.

I met Mary Middlebrook thru my old club, before she setup her outdoor green houses in Port Hueneme(spelling). She tries hard but I don't think she is anywhere as successful as she wishes to be, even she buys(at least used to) from LA wholesalers that sells known poor quality fish and other live stock for resale.
Its not a perfect world, everyone goes into a business to fulfill their needs (basic, or not) and will want to make a buck at the right opportunity. If you are willing to pay the additional cost for a MAC certified live stock, so be it. But do you really think everyone at MAC's first agenda is to preserve the life of every specimen collected?
I really think you should direct your energy to educated the newbie reefers on how not to mistreat animals in their care by setting up their tanks correctly. Going after the $ chain of this industry is a very tough thing to do.

 

[IconicAquariums]

Ink, i'm glad you read up. I am happy that people do listen.

E, here is a somewhat partial list(as i have not ordered from many wholesalers, so i can not comment) on which wholesale outlets are the best. I won't bother to do the worst, but let's just leave it at they are local. Some of the direct ones(like WOW) are by far the best.

Quality Marine, Sea Dwelling Creatures, Pacific Aqua Farms, Golden Generation, Wayne's Ocean World, D&R Imports, C-Quest, Caribbean Aquatics, Holiday Corals, Consistentsea, Aqua Marines, Walt Smith International, ORA, Proquatix, Dynasty Marine, Reef Source(MSI), RCTHawaii

 

[griMReefer]

II really think you should direct your energy to educated the newbie reefers on how not to mistreat animals in their care by setting up their tanks correctly. Going after the $ chain of this industry is a very tough thing to do.

i love that point.

i just thought that not impulse-buying based on prices we see at LFS or other venues is what nips the greedy money chain?

(supply and demand 101)

 

[ezee]

Joetbs,

I am assuming these wholesalers use companies with ethical collection procedures, at least that's what you were referring to.

I just spoke with one of my fish suppliers, Deepwater, and he said that he only orders from SeaDwelling creatures and Pacific Aquafarms. So that should put him on the good to go list for retailers, right?

I also plan to ask the other retailer I get my fish from and will post shortly.

How did you come up with your lists?

Thanks,

E

 

[prattreef]

I don't doubt that these are the best wholesalers and that they treat their animals better and have better connections to better collectors, but save for the aquaculture outfits (Proaquatics, ORA, C-Quest, RCT Hawaii), I don't think any of them that get fish from the PI and Indo ( some may be specific to island nations devoid of cyanide use) can claim to be cyanide free. There just aren't enough net caught fish coming out of these locals to fill out the inventory. For the consumer, if you want to hedge your bets, restrict yourself to the aquaculture outfits ( I hope you like clownfish, Dottybacks and Gobies/Blennies), or try to get accurate info as to the country of origin of the fish you wish to purchase.

For many LFS who don't deal directly with a large L.A. importer, or import directly themselves, this is nearly impossible info for them to obtain. LFS dealing with the reputable companies Joe mentioned should result in healtier product, but it doesn't mean they are clean.

Randy

 

[inkblue]

Joetbs,
I just spoke with one of my fish suppliers, Deepwater, and he said that he only orders from SeaDwelling creatures and Pacific Aquafarms. So that should put him on the good to go list for retailers, right?

:flower:That's good news...

 

[IconicAquariums]

I agree, Randy. I have gotten bum fish from a few of the places, namely SDC, but for the most part they are better than what is available locally. Again, it comes down to honest people, in which QM takes the cake. They are also the only importer of fish from Cebu, which is a station run by a bioligist.

One local guy i forgot to mention is Meritt imports. They are trying harder to bring in properly caught fish, and has eliminated many bad suppliers from his chain.

E, i am not putting him in one catergory or another. I'd rather not get involved with that.

What about those countries that are trying to rebuild their reefs?

The Phillipines is mariculturing coral to replenish the ocean.

Either Taiwan or Thailand(i can't remember which) is breeding a dozen species of Amphiprion. For this, the government gives the farm $.02 per fish that they put back in the ocean.

 

[cali_reef]

i love that point.

i just thought that not impulse-buying based on prices we see at LFS or other venues is what nips the greedy money chain?

(supply and demand 101)

How many people you know that:
1. Planned the visit to the store and
2. Had the intension to get something nice for their tank, but
3. Don't go home with a bag filled with live stock after few trips getting nothing because the LFS did not and can not state where they received the fish from?
Impulse buying is terrible but these people are not going to listen to the reasons when they are here posting for help. They are looking for a solution to alleivated the current problem at hand, not listening to a suggestion may have prevented the event from happening.
[SIZE=+0]I have never seen anyone suggesting bring a Scott Michael's marine fish pocket guide on these LFS trips to look up the fish's needs before buying it, it would save a lot of the wrong fish from going home and maybe imported for sale. The books is less than $20 on Amazon.com
[/SIZE]

 

[IconicAquariums]

This thread has been edited by Pseudo...


If you intend on keeping this thread alive I suggest you start omitting price lists that the vendor pays. It does not help your thread and I will delete them instantly.

Joe,

If you are having problems with any of the vendors on the board please contact a MOD. Posting price lists as innocent as it seems is not a good practice as there are people that make a livelyhood from the sale of these animals. It not only hurts the person you dont SEEM to like but also others like Sean from Aquatic Creations among others. It's not fair and will not be tolerated.

If I feel that this thread is going the wrong way I will delete it. So far the posts have done a great job educating others in the object of husbandry, ethical fish practices and fish purchases. Keep on this track.

Thanks,

Kasei

 

[inkblue]

[SIZE=+0]I have never seen anyone suggesting bring a Scott Michael's marine fish pocket guide on these LFS trips to look up the fish's needs before buying it, it would save a lot of the wrong fish from going home and maybe imported for sale. The books is less than $20 on Amazon.com
[/SIZE]

Thanks caLi... wiLl buy that book now rangehat:birthday: i wiSh they had it in eBooks :redface:

 

[ezee]

Joetbs,


Okay. But regarding the wholesalers, they are ones that you feel are reputable, correct?

Thanks,

Eugene

 

[prattreef]

Cali,

I always recommend that people bring that book with them.... but few do. RD

 

[griMReefer]

How many people you know that:
1. Planned the visit to the store and
2. Had the intension to get something nice for their tank, but
3. Don't go home with a bag filled with live stock after few trips getting nothing because the LFS did not and can not state where they received the fish from?
Impulse buying is terrible but these people are not going to listen to the reasons when they are here posting for help. They are looking for a solution to alleivated the current problem at hand, not listening to a suggestion may have prevented the event from happening.
[SIZE=+0]I have never seen anyone suggesting bring a Scott Michael's marine fish pocket guide on these LFS trips to look up the fish's needs before buying it, it would save a lot of the wrong fish from going home and maybe imported for sale. The books is less than $20 on Amazon.com
[/SIZE]

there was cute young couple i saw more than once at FT with a book (prob not that one) looking at the fish and checking the book. that was impressive, even though they were in FT. they bought cheap fish, but apparently only one at a time the couple times i saw, while other people bought like boxes of stuff from FT. i mean literally the FT girl went downstairs to bring up like 3 boxes for 1 customer. that was funny. now i don't go to FT, or any LFS for the matter. that is what i have learned from here lol to not buy from the LFS anyway. they could easily tell me its net caught, it may even appear healthy then when i take it hope it dies of some cyanide effect leaving me jipped.

 

[Pseudo]

Do not let this thread become a bashing thread or I will delete it. Any personal references will get deleted and I will issue a warning for it. You get 2 chances with me because we are not children. I hope you would understand me the first time and not let there be a second.

Please keep this a discussion thread as it is going good so far. Very informative.

Thanks,

Kasei

 

[ezee]

Kasei,

Thanks!

E

 

[prattreef]

The following is from a thread on Reefs.Org The author is Steve Robinson, one of the founders of the net caught movement and pioneer net trainer in PI and elsewhere. RD


"THE MARINE ORNAMENTALS CONFERENCE saw Ruwindrijarto and Arsonetri of the Les Village netcaught co-operative present their work and it was clearly the main event and good news in the perrenial reform drama.
Les has led the way on their own and without much foreign help.
They have converted a few hundred cyanide fishers and have stuck with net catching only for 5 years now.
They have an uncompromising policy of not allowing any cyanide fish or fisherman into their ranks.
Indonesia/Bali is in fact flooded with a tradition of cyanide fishing and is now the cyanide fishing center of the world....and dirtier then the Philippines.
Everyones favorite exporters from Bali carry cyanide fish routinely and yet have hardly cared to pressure for change as they get nice corals from the same outfits.
When reefers get the small corals they love they tend to forget about coral killing poisons that ruin mother colonies [ as they call them] and mature coral stands.

When they revealed as a matter of fact that they were the only 100% netcaught operation in Bali [ true] there were murmurs in the crowd.
They have nets provided by AMDA and EASi of the Philippines and they have had the training and experience to do the job. They are now moving forward into marketing their fish.
The director of Les...Ruwi also said that they were clearly and steadfastly a non MAC enterprise. They have seen MAC from their perspective and found it irrelevant to their mission. [MAC in Bali however, wants their divers badly and there is a constant stress about this.]
They are looking for buyers of their all netcaught product and have had a hard time doing so as no wholesalers have been interested so far except for Aquatic Specialties in the SF Bay area. "

Steve

 

[ezee]

Randy,

Thanks! As always, you are a great source of impartial knowledge. Much appreciated. I will continue to check out that thread.

E

 

[IconicAquariums]

Kasei, can i repost the description without the pricing, just so people have an idea of what a store sees on a stocklist?

joe

 

[Pseudo]

Sure

 

[IconicAquariums]

Here are several excerpts from one supplier. These show abbreviations for where some fish come from. Most, though, are unlabeled. Some there are even multiple origins listed. No comment on the last one...

Firefish Goby - $x.xx----- 6 lot $x.xx ----- 12 lot $x.xx (B)
Five Bar Mystery Wrasse - $xx.xx (H,M)
Coral Beauty or Eiblii Angel - s-sm $x.xx/ m $x.xx / ml $xx.xx / lg $xx.xx (B,T,F)
S [FEW]Purple Tang: some lateral line$xx.xx


Just for reference:
B - Bali
T - Tonga
F - Fiji
H - Hawaii
M - Marshall Islands